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RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

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  • Janet Kozlay
    Although I would agree with Bill that immigrants could choose any name they wished, if you will Google Vaclav James you will find literally hundreds of
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 2, 2009
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      Although I would agree with Bill that immigrants could choose any name they
      wished, if you will Google "Vaclav James" you will find literally hundreds
      of cases, perhaps more, where Vaclav was Americanized to James. I tried it
      also with the related name Wenceslaus with only rare instances of changes to
      James, though there was one person who was listed as Vaclav Wenceslaus
      "James."



      Trying the same thing with the Hungarian form of the name, Vencel, you also
      get many instances of changes to James.



      I suspect that its origin is Biblical. That is, where you find James in an
      English Bible, you would find Vaclav (or Wenceslaus, or Vencel) in the other
      language Bibles.



      Janet









      _____

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of charles tintera
      Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 4:21 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James





      Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

      According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
      Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
      James B.

      I have the impression that it was a common thing to change a child's name
      from a Slovak or Bohemian first name to the equivalent in American-English.

      But why that choice, what is the relation of the name "Vaclav" to the name
      "James"? They do not seem to correspond at all to me.

      Charles "Chuck" Tintera

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Mojher
      Václav (Czech pronunciation: [ va?tslaf]) is a Czech male first name, sometimes translated into English as Wenceslaus or Wenceslas . These forms are derived
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 2, 2009
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        Václav (Czech pronunciation: ['va?tslaf]) is a Czech male first name, sometimes translated into English as Wenceslaus or Wenceslas . These forms are derived from the old Slavic/Czech form of this name: Vencslav. In the Czech calendar, the saint day of Saint Václav (Wenceslas I, Duke of Bohemia) is celebrated on 28 September as a state holiday. "Václav" is in many cases informally shortened to Vasek.

        The name James is derived from the same Hebrew name as Jacob, meaning "holds the heel" (in the Genesis narrative, Jacob was born grasping Esau's heel and later bought his birthright).


        From: charles tintera
        Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:20 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


        Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

        According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
        Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
        James B.

        I have the impression that it was a common thing to change a child's name
        from a Slovak or Bohemian first name to the equivalent in American-English.

        But why that choice, what is the relation of the name "Vaclav" to the name
        "James"? They do not seem to correspond at all to me.

        Charles "Chuck" Tintera

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Mojher
        On the list English Versions of Foreign Names Czech and Slovak have no given equivalent to James. Hungarian had Imre and Polish had Dymitry. From: charles
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 2, 2009
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          On the list English Versions of Foreign Names Czech and Slovak have no given equivalent to James. Hungarian had Imre and Polish had Dymitry.


          From: charles tintera
          Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:20 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


          Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

          According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
          Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
          James B.

          I have the impression that it was a common thing to change a child's name
          from a Slovak or Bohemian first name to the equivalent in American-English.

          But why that choice, what is the relation of the name "Vaclav" to the name
          "James"? They do not seem to correspond at all to me.

          Charles "Chuck" Tintera

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ben Sorensen
          Just to add into the Vaclav thread, Emperor Charles IV (the father of the Czech lands) wrote a history of Sv. Vaclav in Latin. This was an anomality, as kings
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 2, 2009
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            Just to add into the Vaclav thread, Emperor Charles IV (the father of the Czech lands) wrote a history of Sv. Vaclav in Latin. This was an anomality, as kings usually didn't spend time with the pen, but thankfully Charles IV did.  In Latin, Vaclav is Wenceslaus, and hence the English name as well.  I have a copy of this in Latin and English....
             
            One very overlooked reason that people change thier names upon emigrating is that they get sick of hearing thier names butchered.  So, the immigrant is left with two options after a while when people can't pronounce his name- he will either introduce himself and "butcher" his own name into English phonetics (or the local phonetics....) or he will take on an easier name- like Jack instead of Slavomir (not often so drastically as I just demonstrated).  The third, and not often met, option is to be stubborn about the pronunciation of his name, which doesn't make him the most welcome company. 
             
            Figuring out why a name changes is usually futile, unless that subject is still alive.
            Ben

            --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:


            From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 11:13 PM


             



            On the list English Versions of Foreign Names Czech and Slovak have no given equivalent to James. Hungarian had Imre and Polish had Dymitry.

            From: charles tintera
            Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:20 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            Subject: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

            Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

            According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
            Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
            James B.

            I have the impression that it was a common thing to change a child's name
            from a Slovak or Bohemian first name to the equivalent in American-English.

            But why that choice, what is the relation of the name "Vaclav" to the name
            "James"? They do not seem to correspond at all to me.

            Charles "Chuck" Tintera

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Janet Kozlay
            My argument would have held more weight had I found that Vaclav/Wenceslaus and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not. On the other hand, going
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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              My argument would have held more weight had I found that Vaclav/Wenceslaus
              and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.



              On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins in the
              Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?



              How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?



              Janet



              _____

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
              Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James





              Just to add into the Vaclav thread, Emperor Charles IV (the father of the
              Czech lands) wrote a history of Sv. Vaclav in Latin. This was an anomality,
              as kings usually didn't spend time with the pen, but thankfully Charles IV
              did. In Latin, Vaclav is Wenceslaus, and hence the English name as well. I
              have a copy of this in Latin and English....

              One very overlooked reason that people change thier names upon emigrating is
              that they get sick of hearing thier names butchered. So, the immigrant is
              left with two options after a while when people can't pronounce his name- he
              will either introduce himself and "butcher" his own name into English
              phonetics (or the local phonetics....) or he will take on an easier name-
              like Jack instead of Slavomir (not often so drastically as I just
              demonstrated). The third, and not often met, option is to be stubborn about
              the pronunciation of his name, which doesn't make him the most welcome
              company.

              Figuring out why a name changes is usually futile, unless that subject is
              still alive.
              Ben

              --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@comcast.
              <mailto:mgmojher%40comcast.net> net> wrote:

              From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@comcast. <mailto:mgmojher%40comcast.net> net>
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 11:13 PM



              On the list English Versions of Foreign Names Czech and Slovak have no given
              equivalent to James. Hungarian had Imre and Polish had Dymitry.

              From: charles tintera
              Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:20 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

              Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

              According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
              Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
              James B.

              I have the impression that it was a common thing to change a child's name
              from a Slovak or Bohemian first name to the equivalent in American-English.

              But why that choice, what is the relation of the name "Vaclav" to the name
              "James"? They do not seem to correspond at all to me.

              Charles "Chuck" Tintera

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Armata, Joseph R
              James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel. Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory. So the names
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                Joe


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                >
                >
                >
                > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                >
                > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                > in the
                > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                >
                > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                >
                > Janet
                >
              • Janet Kozlay
                However, I still don t see how that explains the enormous number of Vaclavs (and Hungarian Vencels) who changed their name to James. To me there are way too
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                  However, I still don't see how that explains the enormous number of Vaclavs
                  (and Hungarian Vencels) who changed their name to James. To me there are way
                  too many to be merely coincidental, though I may well be wrong.



                  The answer is probably found in the publication "The Americanization of
                  Czech Given Names" by Dudek. Unfortunately, from what I can see it is
                  available only through JSTOR, to which I am not subscribed. Perhaps a
                  subscriber could look it up for us.



                  Janet





                  _____

                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Armata, Joseph R
                  Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:38 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James





                  James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                  Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                  So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the
                  name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come
                  to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                  Joe

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                  > ROOTS@yahoogroups. <mailto:ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf Of
                  Janet Kozlay
                  > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                  > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                  > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                  >
                  > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                  > in the
                  > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                  >
                  > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                  >
                  > Janet
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael Mojher
                  Joe, In the Rootsweb s English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub s English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                    Joe,
                    In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.


                    From: Armata, Joseph R
                    Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


                    James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                    Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                    So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                    Joe

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                    > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                    > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                    > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                    > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                    >
                    > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                    > in the
                    > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                    >
                    > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                    >
                    > Janet
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Mojher
                    Janet, From this website: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Jacob Etymology From Late Latin Iacobus
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                      Janet,
                      From this website: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Jacob

                      Etymology
                      From Late Latin Iacobus < Ancient Greek ??????? < Hebrew ???? (ya'aqov, heel-grabber) < ??? ('akev, heel of the foot). Cognate with James of the New Testament.

                      Related terms
                      a.. James and its variants
                      a.. Jake, Jay, Jacques
                      Cognate meaning a "common ancestor of origin". So it appears there is a justification for the two being exchanged.

                      My apologies Joe, Jakub in Slavic languages is translated as Jacob and James.



                      From: Janet Kozlay
                      Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:29 AM
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


                      However, I still don't see how that explains the enormous number of Vaclavs
                      (and Hungarian Vencels) who changed their name to James. To me there are way
                      too many to be merely coincidental, though I may well be wrong.

                      The answer is probably found in the publication "The Americanization of
                      Czech Given Names" by Dudek. Unfortunately, from what I can see it is
                      available only through JSTOR, to which I am not subscribed. Perhaps a
                      subscriber could look it up for us.

                      Janet

                      _____

                      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Armata, Joseph R
                      Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:38 AM
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                      James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                      Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                      So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the
                      name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come
                      to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                      Joe

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                      > ROOTS@yahoogroups. <mailto:ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf Of
                      Janet Kozlay
                      > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                      > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                      > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                      >
                      > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                      > in the
                      > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                      >
                      > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                      >
                      > Janet
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tom Geiss
                      Just like my grand mother s brother s name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names. Tom
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                        Just like my grand mother's brother's name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names.
                        Tom
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Michael Mojher
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:03 PM
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


                        Joe,
                        In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.

                        From: Armata, Joseph R
                        Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                        James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                        Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                        So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                        Joe

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                        > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                        > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                        > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                        > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                        >
                        > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                        > in the
                        > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                        >
                        > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                        >
                        > Janet
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael Mojher
                        Tom, Joska is the diminutive of Jozsef. The equivalent to our Joey. From: Tom Geiss Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:39 AM To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                          Tom,
                          Joska is the diminutive of Jozsef. The equivalent to our Joey.


                          From: Tom Geiss
                          Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:39 AM
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James


                          Just like my grand mother's brother's name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names.
                          Tom
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Michael Mojher
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:03 PM
                          Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                          Joe,
                          In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.

                          From: Armata, Joseph R
                          Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                          James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                          Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                          So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                          Joe

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                          > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                          > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                          > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                          > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                          >
                          > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                          > in the
                          > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                          >
                          > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                          >
                          > Janet
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • jenna-m
                          Another aspect on name changes. A few years back in one of my evening classes, over half the class was foreign born. Three men in particular who were Russian,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
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                            Another aspect on name changes. A few years back in one of my evening classes, over half the class was foreign born. Three men in particular who were Russian, wanted to not be called at all by their names on the roster. Even though they had what I thought were beautiful sounding names.,,names like Yevgeny...and preferred to be called and write on their papers names like "Gene." When I asked why thet would prefer such Americanized names when their given names might be attractive to Americans...they seemed leery as though that had not been their experiences. They also told me they wanted to disassociate with their past. One, I helped after school work on his resume, and again when I asked why he put "Bill" on his resume instead of his given name...he said only I thought his name was beautiful, here. Thought that people made (negative) assumptions about him based on his name. It seemed obvious that he had experienced discrimination  based on his name and
                            wanted to improve his odds of getting a job as well as dissociating from bad times "back home."
                             
                            I'd also add that the other two had a lot of energy about stating that they were Russian Jews, and proceeded to tell the class about the pogroms in Russia.
                             
                            Jenna
                             


                            --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:


                            From: Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
                            Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 1:10 AM


                             



                            Just to add into the Vaclav thread, Emperor Charles IV (the father of the Czech lands) wrote a history of Sv. Vaclav in Latin. This was an anomality, as kings usually didn't spend time with the pen, but thankfully Charles IV did.  In Latin, Vaclav is Wenceslaus, and hence the English name as well.  I have a copy of this in Latin and English....
                             
                            One very overlooked reason that people change thier names upon emigrating is that they get sick of hearing thier names butchered.  So, the immigrant is left with two options after a while when people can't pronounce his name- he will either introduce himself and "butcher" his own name into English phonetics (or the local phonetics... .) or he will take on an easier name- like Jack instead of Slavomir (not often so drastically as I just demonstrated) .  The third, and not often met, option is to be stubborn about the pronunciation of his name, which doesn't make him the most welcome company. 
                             
                            Figuring out why a name changes is usually futile, unless that subject is still alive.
                            Ben

                            --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@comcast. net> wrote:

                            From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@comcast. net>
                            Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 11:13 PM

                             

                            On the list English Versions of Foreign Names Czech and Slovak have no given equivalent to James. Hungarian had Imre and Polish had Dymitry.

                            From: charles tintera
                            Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:20 PM
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                            Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                            According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
                            Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
                            James B.

                            I have the impression that it was a common thing to change a child's name
                            from a Slovak or Bohemian first name to the equivalent in American-English.

                            But why that choice, what is the relation of the name "Vaclav" to the name
                            "James"? They do not seem to correspond at all to me.

                            Charles "Chuck" Tintera

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                          • Ben Sorensen
                            Hey there Mike et al... Just a quick correction. Joska is an objective case of the name.  While I am avoiding walking down the magical path of Slovak
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hey there Mike et al...
                              Just a quick correction. "Joska" is an objective case of the name.  While I am avoiding walking down the magical path of Slovak grammar, the nominative- and therefore the good case to use in English, is Josko. To je Josko- This is Josko.  To je pre Joska- This is for Josko.
                              Just to be a little help...
                              Ben

                              --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:


                              From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
                              Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:13 PM


                               



                              Tom,
                              Joska is the diminutive of Jozsef. The equivalent to our Joey.

                              From: Tom Geiss
                              Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:39 AM
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                              Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                              Just like my grand mother's brother's name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names.
                              Tom
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Michael Mojher
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:03 PM
                              Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                              Joe,
                              In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.

                              From: Armata, Joseph R
                              Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                              Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                              James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.

                              Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.

                              So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.

                              Joe

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                              > ROOTS@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                              > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                              > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                              > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                              >
                              > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                              > in the
                              > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                              >
                              > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                              >
                              > Janet
                              >

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                            • Ron Matviyak
                              Just a quick addition to Ben s comment to recognize a potential point of confusion: Joschka is also a German first name, diminutive (as in Johnny), but does
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 3, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Just a quick addition to Ben's comment to recognize a potential point of confusion: Joschka is also a German first name, diminutive (as in Johnny), but does not change case as in the Slovak Joska. Of course spelling may vary by personal choice, adding to the confusion.

                                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hey there Mike et al...
                                > Just a quick correction. "Joska" is an objective case of the name. While I am avoiding walking down the magical path of Slovak grammar, the nominative- and therefore the good case to use in English, is Josko. To je Josko- This is Josko. To je pre Joska- This is for Josko.
                                > Just to be a little help...
                                > Ben
                                >
                                > --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...>
                                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 3:13 PM
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Tom,
                                > Joska is the diminutive of Jozsef. The equivalent to our Joey.
                                >
                                > From: Tom Geiss
                                > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:39 AM
                                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                                >
                                > Just like my grand mother's brother's name is JOZSEF. and my American relatives hear it pronounced, then write his name JOSKA. The evolution of names.
                                > Tom
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Michael Mojher
                                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:03 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                                >
                                > Joe,
                                > In the Rootsweb's English Versions of Foreign Names Jakub's English version is Jacob. Under James Czech and Slovak blocks are left blank, indicating that there is no equivalent name for James in those languages.
                                >
                                > From: Armata, Joseph R
                                > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:38 AM
                                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                                >
                                > James is Jakub in Czech, coming from Hebrew meaning to take by the heel.
                                >
                                > Vaclav is a native Slavic name, coming from roots meaning greater glory.
                                >
                                > So the names are completely unrelated. Your Vaclav probably just picked the name James to go by. Think of all the Chinese university students who come to America today and pick an arbitrary English name to use.
                                >
                                > Joe
                                >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                                > > ROOTS@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Janet Kozlay
                                > > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:25 AM
                                > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > My argument would have held more weight had I found that
                                > > Vaclav/Wenceslaus
                                > > and James had the same feast day, but, alas, they do not.
                                > >
                                > > On the other hand, going back further, the name James has its origins
                                > > in the
                                > > Hebrew name Jakov/Jaakov. Could Jakov and Vaclav in turn be related?
                                > >
                                > > How are the names of Jesus' disciples named in a Czech Bible?
                                > >
                                > > Janet
                                > >
                                >
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                              • charles tintera
                                Names: Man s name change Vaclav to James According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father s first name was Vaclav at birth but on every other record
                                Message 15 of 19 , Aug 4, 2009
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                                  Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                                  "According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
                                  Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
                                  James B."



                                  Thank you all for your comments.



                                  I think that it is mostly likely that my father's name change from Vaclav to
                                  James was an attempt to fit in.



                                  Why choose James in lieu of Vaclav? Maybe James was a popular choice at
                                  that time (early 1900s in Chicago, Illinois) or maybe James (a single though
                                  extended ascending tone) just sounds better in English than Vaclav (two hard
                                  tones).



                                  Since none of his family remains alive and the records are scanty, at best,
                                  I recognize that there is no way to know.



                                  I am still pursuing the St. Procopius records to see if there is a record of
                                  a Roman Catholic Confirmation - perhaps he adopted "James" at that time and
                                  used it thereafter eventually substituting a "B" for the "V" as his middle
                                  initial. His name would have progressed from Vaclav to Vaclav James, to
                                  James (Vaclav), to James V. and finally to James B.



                                  Interesting to speculate, impossible to prove.



                                  cvt





                                  Charles "Chuck" Tintera





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                                • Ben Sorensen
                                  Hmm... As I read this, I think that there is an interesting reason- perhaps- for the middle initial becoming a B.  It is ingenious.... :-) on your ancestor s
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Aug 4, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hmm... As I read this, I think that there is an interesting reason- perhaps- for the middle initial becoming a B.  It is ingenious.... :-) on your ancestor's part!
                                     
                                    In azbuka- or the Russian alphabet- the sound of V is spelled with what looks like a Latin B.  Perhaps, though it is hard to prove, he was actually using the azbuka for his middle initial instead of the Latin letter!
                                    Ben

                                    --- On Tue, 8/4/09, charles tintera <ctintera@...> wrote:


                                    From: charles tintera <ctintera@...>
                                    Subject: [S-R] Re: Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James
                                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 7:12 PM


                                     



                                    Names: Man's name change Vaclav to James

                                    "According to the St. Procopius Church Registry my father's first name was
                                    Vaclav at birth but on every other record that I have he is named James or
                                    James B."

                                    Thank you all for your comments.

                                    I think that it is mostly likely that my father's name change from Vaclav to
                                    James was an attempt to fit in.

                                    Why choose James in lieu of Vaclav? Maybe James was a popular choice at
                                    that time (early 1900s in Chicago, Illinois) or maybe James (a single though
                                    extended ascending tone) just sounds better in English than Vaclav (two hard
                                    tones).

                                    Since none of his family remains alive and the records are scanty, at best,
                                    I recognize that there is no way to know.

                                    I am still pursuing the St. Procopius records to see if there is a record of
                                    a Roman Catholic Confirmation - perhaps he adopted "James" at that time and
                                    used it thereafter eventually substituting a "B" for the "V" as his middle
                                    initial. His name would have progressed from Vaclav to Vaclav James, to
                                    James (Vaclav), to James V. and finally to James B.

                                    Interesting to speculate, impossible to prove.

                                    cvt

                                    Charles "Chuck" Tintera

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