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RE: [S-R] Szarka and Sarka

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  • Ben Sorensen
    Dear Janet, I doubt that you could make that up in thin air. I am almost certain that the source you had was confused between two very similar- and even more
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 14, 2009
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      Dear Janet,
      I doubt that you could make that up in thin air. I am almost certain that the source you had was confused between two very similar- and even more so if you are not speaking Slovak every day!- spellings: SARKA and STRAKA. I am sure you know that the quality of bilingual dictionaries in SK-EN are very low compared to German/Spanish/Italian or even thier Czech counterparts. It is a problem, and people end up saying things in one language or the other because of it that confuse or misguide us.

      I would like to point out how many SLOVAK books are on the market on AbeBooks, and they are listed as Slovenian/Croatian/LATVIAN. This is a renouned book-seller, and yet the mistake is RIGHT there for everyone to see- but NO ONE fixes it, because so few of us would notice it. It is NOT something to be ashamed of... and you don't need to appologize for the mistake. One person told me thier favorite Slovak saying- and it was in German. :-P There you go...

      I wonder what the word for magpie is in Hungarian- perhaps szarka? I dunno... I am still learning English- my first language- and therefore I commend your attempt to translate sarka. My previous spelling of plum proves that, and I taught English. Kazdy sa myli/everyone makes mistakes.
      Ben

      --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

      > From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Szarka and Sarka
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 6:01 PM
      > I swear I didn't just make it up out
      > of thin air when I stated that sarka
      > meant magpie in Slovak. However, I must confess that I
      > cannot now find the
      > reference. On the other hand, there are quite a few sites
      > that state that
      > ¹arka means magpie in Lithuanian-not that that is any
      > help. Indeed, straka
      > seems to be the Slovak word for magpie. I apologize for my
      > error.
      >
      >
      >
      > Janet
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >   _____ 
      >
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
      > On
      > Behalf Of Ben/Milka Sorensen
      > Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 1:12 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Szarka/Krizsek
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Sarka- vírusová choroba sliviek prejavujúca sa
      > prehlbeninami a hnednutím
      > povrchu plodov.
      >
      > Sarka (En? anyone?)- a viral ailment that attacks plumbs,
      > indicated by a
      > thickening and a browning of the fruit's surface.
      >
      > I am not very good at zoology in English or Slovak, and I
      > don't speak
      > Hungarian, but this is just to correct that a sarka is NOT
      > a magpie in
      > Slovak. In Slovak, that is straka ciernozoba. Just so that
      > no one goes
      > looking for sarky in Slovakia- you will be doing something
      > other than
      > ornithology.
      >
      > It is the bane of all brewers of slivovica- and that is how
      > I knew that
      > translation was incorrect. :-P
      > Ben
      >
      > >
      > > In addition to Michael's information, the Hungarian
      > spelled Szarka and
      > > Slovak spelled Sarka are both relatively common in the
      > Slovak phone
      > > directory (168 and 127, respectively; also, 75
      > Szarkovas and 29 Sarkovas).
      > > They are even more common in the Hungarian phone
      > directory-both spellings
      > > occur in Hungary in excess of 500 entries. To confuse
      > the issue even
      > > further, if you look at the census records for 1910
      > and 1920, where
      > country
      > > of birth and language spoken are both listed, there is
      > no strong
      > correlation
      > > between spelling and language spoken. That is, you
      > will find Szarkas
      > > speaking Slovak and Sarkas speaking Hungarian. In
      > addition, you will find
      > > mixed families where the husband spoke one language
      > and the wife the
      > other.
      > > In truth, many immigrants from historic Hungary were
      > at least bilingual
      > and
      > > probably most commonly spoke the language of the
      > neighborhood in which
      > they
      > > settled.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > The fact that Szarka (and Szarkova) is found more
      > frequently than Sarka
      > (and
      > > Sarkova) suggests, but does not prove, that it may
      > have Hungarian origins.
      > > The name means magpie in both languages.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > If this is an important issue for you, I suggest that
      > you find the U.S.
      > > census records for the family and see what language
      > they reported using.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > In contrast, Krizsek/Krizek is quite rare in Hungary
      > (Krizsek 7 phone
      > > directory entries, Krizek 1 entry).
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Janet
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > _____
      > >
      > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com] On
      > > Behalf Of Michael Mojher
      > > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:30 PM
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Szarka/Krizsek
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Sheila,
      > > Historically the present day Slovakia was for 900
      > years ruled over by
      > > Hungary. It was referred to as Upper Hungary. After WW
      > I Czechoslovakia
      > was
      > > created. The two territories only connection to one
      > another was
      > > linguistically. In 1993 Slovakia finally got its
      > independence.
      > > While under Hungarian rule the Slovaks kept their
      > identity. In the late
      > > 1800's the Hungarians had a policy called
      > Magyarization where they wanted
      > > only the Hungarian language used. This meant that
      > Slovaks had their names
      > > entered into records with Hungarian spellings. One of
      > the signals for a
      > > Hungarian name or word is the use of "sz' and "zs".
      > Because they happen to
      > > be in your surnames does not mean they identified with
      > being Hungarian.
      > Your
      > > ancestral villages were in Slovak territory. Which
      > would make them most
      > > likely Slovak. If you know which language they spoke
      > that could clarify
      > > whether they were Hungarian or Slovak.
      > > If you recall, I did not find anyone in Slovakia with
      > the surname Krizsek,
      > > but there was the spelling Krizek. This would lead me
      > to believe that
      > Krizek
      > > is the correct spelling of your surname.
      > > Since Szarka still exists in Slovakia in great numbers
      > and it has a
      > > Hungarian spelling I would presume it is a Hungarian
      > surname. If the
      > family
      > > had lived in the Slovak territory, spoke Slovak and
      > identified themselves
      > as
      > > being Slovak then they would be a Hungarian-Slovak.
      > Hungarians did live
      > and
      > > still do live in Slovak territory.
      > > As for finding your Szarka family in Germany. Do a
      > search for German
      > > Genealogical websites and approach them as you did us.
      > They would know the
      > > ins and outs for Germany. If your family communicated
      > with one another
      > their
      > > might be a letter or address book that can give you
      > that all important
      > > "where" in Germany.
      > >
      > >
      > > From: sheils@... <mailto:sheils%40att.net>
      > > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 5:58 AM
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [S-R] Szarka/Krizsek
      > >
      > > I have to assume that the ancestor's my family would
      > have descended from
      > > where Hungarian then. My mother gave me the spelling
      > of her granmothers
      > > maiden name from an obit. so I believe that to be
      > correct. I am also aware
      > > of Szarka's that are possibly living in Germany. My
      > mother states her
      > Uncle
      > > Joseph Szarka married a German woman after WWII and
      > settled in Germany to
      > > live. He has since past, but last I knew his wife was
      > still alive. Of
      > course
      > > that was over 15 years ago. I am fairly positive that
      > they had children. I
      > > even met my Uncle Joseph once when he came to the
      > states but I was very
      > > young at the time. I think he may have come over in
      > 1979. Does anyone know
      > > of Szarka's currently living in Germany?
      > >
      > > Sheila
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS%c2%a0
      > -or- send  blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
      > Groups Links
      >
      >
      >     mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
    • Nick Holcz
      Ben Plumb is level Plum is fruit It s OK cos Slovak is like Martian to me Nick
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 15, 2009
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        Ben
        Plumb is level
        Plum is fruit
        It's OK cos Slovak is like Martian to me

        Nick
      • Janet Kozlay
        Thanks, Ben. I feel better now. I do not have a good Slovak-English dictionary and have to depend on the not-so-adequate ones that are on line. I do, however,
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 15, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks, Ben. I feel better now. I do not have a good Slovak-English
          dictionary and have to depend on the not-so-adequate ones that are on line.
          I do, however, have a good Hungarian-English dictionary and, yes, szarka
          means magpie. There are so many borrow words between Hungarian and Slovak
          that I never questioned the possibility, even the probability, that they
          were the same word. Assumptions can get you in a lot of trouble.



          Even if we cannot say that the meanings of szarka and sarka are the same,
          that still leaves the possibility that the NAMES are the same—that Sarka is
          a Slovak spelling of the Hungarian name Szarka. As I mentioned before, the
          fact that Szarkas outnumber Sarkas both in Slovakia and Hungary, and that
          both names appear to be more common in Hungary than in Slovakia, would tend
          to support such a hypothesis, but of course does not prove it. One would
          need to see a single family using both spellings, which might well turn up
          in the church records.



          Janet



          _____

          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
          Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 10:18 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [S-R] Szarka and Sarka









          Dear Janet,
          I doubt that you could make that up in thin air. I am almost certain that
          the source you had was confused between two very similar- and even more so
          if you are not speaking Slovak every day!- spellings: SARKA and STRAKA. I am
          sure you know that the quality of bilingual dictionaries in SK-EN are very
          low compared to German/Spanish/Italian or even thier Czech counterparts. It
          is a problem, and people end up saying things in one language or the other
          because of it that confuse or misguide us.

          I would like to point out how many SLOVAK books are on the market on
          AbeBooks, and they are listed as Slovenian/Croatian/LATVIAN. This is a
          renouned book-seller, and yet the mistake is RIGHT there for everyone to
          see- but NO ONE fixes it, because so few of us would notice it. It is NOT
          something to be ashamed of... and you don't need to appologize for the
          mistake. One person told me thier favorite Slovak saying- and it was in
          German. :-P There you go...

          I wonder what the word for magpie is in Hungarian- perhaps szarka? I
          dunno... I am still learning English- my first language- and therefore I
          commend your attempt to translate sarka. My previous spelling of plum proves
          that, and I taught English. Kazdy sa myli/everyone makes mistakes.
          Ben

          --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@verizon.
          <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net> wrote:

          > From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
          > Subject: RE: [S-R] Szarka and Sarka
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 6:01 PM
          > I swear I didn't just make it up out
          > of thin air when I stated that sarka
          > meant magpie in Slovak. However, I must confess that I
          > cannot now find the
          > reference. On the other hand, there are quite a few sites
          > that state that
          > ¹arka means magpie in Lithuanian-not that that is any
          > help. Indeed, straka
          > seems to be the Slovak word for magpie. I apologize for my
          > error.
          >
          >
          >
          > Janet
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com]
          > On
          > Behalf Of Ben/Milka Sorensen
          > Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 1:12 PM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Szarka/Krizsek
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Sarka- vírusová choroba sliviek prejavujúca sa
          > prehlbeninami a hnednutím
          > povrchu plodov.
          >
          > Sarka (En? anyone?)- a viral ailment that attacks plumbs,
          > indicated by a
          > thickening and a browning of the fruit's surface.
          >
          > I am not very good at zoology in English or Slovak, and I
          > don't speak
          > Hungarian, but this is just to correct that a sarka is NOT
          > a magpie in
          > Slovak. In Slovak, that is straka ciernozoba. Just so that
          > no one goes
          > looking for sarky in Slovakia- you will be doing something
          > other than
          > ornithology.
          >
          > It is the bane of all brewers of slivovica- and that is how
          > I knew that
          > translation was incorrect. :-P
          > Ben
          >
          > >
          > > In addition to Michael's information, the Hungarian
          > spelled Szarka and
          > > Slovak spelled Sarka are both relatively common in the
          > Slovak phone
          > > directory (168 and 127, respectively; also, 75
          > Szarkovas and 29 Sarkovas).
          > > They are even more common in the Hungarian phone
          > directory-both spellings
          > > occur in Hungary in excess of 500 entries. To confuse
          > the issue even
          > > further, if you look at the census records for 1910
          > and 1920, where
          > country
          > > of birth and language spoken are both listed, there is
          > no strong
          > correlation
          > > between spelling and language spoken. That is, you
          > will find Szarkas
          > > speaking Slovak and Sarkas speaking Hungarian. In
          > addition, you will find
          > > mixed families where the husband spoke one language
          > and the wife the
          > other.
          > > In truth, many immigrants from historic Hungary were
          > at least bilingual
          > and
          > > probably most commonly spoke the language of the
          > neighborhood in which
          > they
          > > settled.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The fact that Szarka (and Szarkova) is found more
          > frequently than Sarka
          > (and
          > > Sarkova) suggests, but does not prove, that it may
          > have Hungarian origins.
          > > The name means magpie in both languages.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > If this is an important issue for you, I suggest that
          > you find the U.S.
          > > census records for the family and see what language
          > they reported using.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > In contrast, Krizsek/Krizek is quite rare in Hungary
          > (Krizsek 7 phone
          > > directory entries, Krizek 1 entry).
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Janet
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > _____
          > >
          > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@
          > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@
          > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com] On
          > > Behalf Of Michael Mojher
          > > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:30 PM
          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@
          > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Szarka/Krizsek
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Sheila,
          > > Historically the present day Slovakia was for 900
          > years ruled over by
          > > Hungary. It was referred to as Upper Hungary. After WW
          > I Czechoslovakia
          > was
          > > created. The two territories only connection to one
          > another was
          > > linguistically. In 1993 Slovakia finally got its
          > independence.
          > > While under Hungarian rule the Slovaks kept their
          > identity. In the late
          > > 1800's the Hungarians had a policy called
          > Magyarization where they wanted
          > > only the Hungarian language used. This meant that
          > Slovaks had their names
          > > entered into records with Hungarian spellings. One of
          > the signals for a
          > > Hungarian name or word is the use of "sz' and "zs".
          > Because they happen to
          > > be in your surnames does not mean they identified with
          > being Hungarian.
          > Your
          > > ancestral villages were in Slovak territory. Which
          > would make them most
          > > likely Slovak. If you know which language they spoke
          > that could clarify
          > > whether they were Hungarian or Slovak.
          > > If you recall, I did not find anyone in Slovakia with
          > the surname Krizsek,
          > > but there was the spelling Krizek. This would lead me
          > to believe that
          > Krizek
          > > is the correct spelling of your surname.
          > > Since Szarka still exists in Slovakia in great numbers
          > and it has a
          > > Hungarian spelling I would presume it is a Hungarian
          > surname. If the
          > family
          > > had lived in the Slovak territory, spoke Slovak and
          > identified themselves
          > as
          > > being Slovak then they would be a Hungarian-Slovak.
          > Hungarians did live
          > and
          > > still do live in Slovak territory.
          > > As for finding your Szarka family in Germany. Do a
          > search for German
          > > Genealogical websites and approach them as you did us.
          > They would know the
          > > ins and outs for Germany. If your family communicated
          > with one another
          > their
          > > might be a letter or address book that can give you
          > that all important
          > > "where" in Germany.
          > >
          > >
          > > From: sheils@... <mailto:sheils%40att.net>
          > > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 5:58 AM
          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@
          > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
          > yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [S-R] Szarka/Krizsek
          > >
          > > I have to assume that the ancestor's my family would
          > have descended from
          > > where Hungarian then. My mother gave me the spelling
          > of her granmothers
          > > maiden name from an obit. so I believe that to be
          > correct. I am also aware
          > > of Szarka's that are possibly living in Germany. My
          > mother states her
          > Uncle
          > > Joseph Szarka married a German woman after WWII and
          > settled in Germany to
          > > live. He has since past, but last I knew his wife was
          > still alive. Of
          > course
          > > that was over 15 years ago. I am fairly positive that
          > they had children. I
          > > even met my Uncle Joseph once when he came to the
          > states but I was very
          > > young at the time. I think he may have come over in
          > 1979. Does anyone know
          > > of Szarka's currently living in Germany?
          > >
          > > Sheila
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/>
          yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogro
          <http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS> ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS
          > -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-
          <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>
          unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
          > Groups Links
          >
          >
          > mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-
          <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
          fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Theresa
          Hi, I looked up magpie in Hungarian and it is szakra. Szarka is Hungarian for pie. No translation available in Slovak for sarka. Theresa
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 15, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi,

            I looked up "magpie" in Hungarian and it is szakra.
            Szarka is Hungarian for "pie."

            No translation available in Slovak for sarka.

            Theresa
          • Janet Kozlay
            Hi Theresa, I know it s very late (nearly 4 a.m. here), but you ve either got a bad Hungarian dictionary or a typo. It is szarka, not szakra. Got to get some
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 15, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Theresa,

              I know it's very late (nearly 4 a.m. here), but you've either got a bad
              Hungarian dictionary or a typo. It is szarka, not szakra.



              Got to get some sleep.



              Janet







              _____

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Theresa
              Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:35 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Szarka and Sarka








              Hi,

              I looked up "magpie" in Hungarian and it is szakra.
              Szarka is Hungarian for "pie."

              No translation available in Slovak for sarka.

              Theresa





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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