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Re: [S-R] Re: Meaning of Gellertfalva--Gerolsdorf--Dobra Volya/Schulz names

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  • treimer@nycap.rr.com
    I don t know Slovak and ran across Scholtyz as the slovakized version of Schulz. I guess this website here has the slovak spelling:
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 9, 2009
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      I don't know Slovak and ran across Scholtyz as the slovakized version of Schulz. I guess this website here has the slovak spelling:

      http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Soltys-family-history.ashx

      Polish (Soltys), Czech (Šoltys), and Slovak Šoltýs: of German origin, a status name for a village headman (see Schultz, Schultheis).

      Thomas

      ---- cerrunos1@... wrote:
      >
      > dobra vol'a means good will or voluntary, depending on context.  Separated, they are Good Will. Together, we have dobrovolna (-y, -e) which means voluntary. In this case, the "y" is the same as an apostrophe- making the L soft. So.... as they are separated... good will.
      >  
      > Scholtyz is not a Slovak spelling- and none of this last name exist now. This leads me to think that this spelling, even disregarding the "pravlida (rules)" of Slovak spelling- is erroneous. In comparison, Janosik, the surname of a brigand hanged in 1713, is still very extant in the Terchova region of Slovakia, as well as elsewhere.  However, Schultyz I have found to mean erudite or bookman (bookkeeper).  This is NOT Slovak.
      >  
      > Gellert is right on. However, this could have been in respects to someone who never held real sway/power/ or even seen the area. (Think of Jamestown, Williamsburg,  or Elizabethtown.)
      >  
      > I hope this helps in some demented way..
      > Ben
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >
      >
      > --- On Sun, 2/8/09, jtgen96 <jtgen96@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: jtgen96 <jtgen96@...>
      > Subject: [S-R] Re: Meaning of Gellertfalva--Gerolsdorf--Dobra Volya
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 3:40 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Thomas, What wonderful background you have supplied us for these
      > villages. Thank you so much for sharing.
      > Gwen
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, <treimer@... > wrote:
      > >
      > > Gwen,
      > >
      > > Gellert is a Christian name and simply means Gerhard/Gerold in
      > German (I don't know the meaning of Dobra Vol'a. Dobra means good,
      > but Vol'a?). Wallendorf had a German population from at least after
      > the Mongol invasion to the 1850s when many either emigrated to the US
      > or Budapest, and the rest became magyarized. Slovaks bought their
      > homes. By 1920, there were scarcely 10% Germans left. I was unable to
      > find more on the hamlet Geroldsdorf (also Gerhardsdorf in some
      > documents). Don't be confused if the church records switch from Dobra
      > Vol'a to Gellertfalva in the 1880s. In the 17th-18th centuries, when
      > many villages became slovakized, the Hungarian authorities, who
      > scarcely cared about such trifles, began to use slovak/slovak- derived
      > names for places. But in the 1880s, there was a swing back to using
      > old magyar names, even if these had not been used in centuries.
      > Churches had to follow the law of the land.
      > >
      > > The name is probably that of the "locator" (real estate developer),
      > who brought the settlers over in the 13th century, surveyed and
      > organized the settlement, and as payment was appointed Schulz (which
      > became Scholtyz in Slovak), that is hereditary mayor, with a farm
      > twice the size of the others plus tax free! But it is virtually
      > impossible to find out more about such hamlets, few people bothered
      > to write about them. Also, Wallendorf with its hamlet of Geroldsdorf
      > were mortgaged to the King of Poland from 1412 to 1772, and then
      > formed an autonomous area till 1876 (16 Zipser Cities). As a result,
      > most Hungarian censuses of the Zips do not include these towns and
      > small cities. Kluckenau was a German founded mining town (like
      > neighboring Reichenau, Krompach etc), but local Germans had vanished
      > (wars, epidemics, assimilation) by the early 1700s, though in the
      > 19th and early 20th century a small group of ethnic Germans living
      > there but not natives of the town, were recorded by the census,
      > mainly mining experts and jewish merchants, and some miners. Now
      > Kluckenau and Reichenau, Krompach etc were in the middle ages part of
      > one noble estate, which in 1837 partly belonged to the Csaky, and
      > partly to the Gundelfinger noble families. When looking for forestry
      > records, remember that in the 19th century Wallendorf was in the
      > district (jaras) of Kirchdrauf, while Kluckenau was in the district
      > of Goellnitz.
      > >
      > > Good luck searching.
      > >
      > > Thomas
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---- jtgen96 <jtgen96@... > wrote:
      > > > In my joy in your finding the connection between Dobra Volya --
      > > > Gellertfalva -- Spisske Vlachy I forgot to ask if perhaps you
      > could
      > > > provide other insights.
      > > >
      > > > We are searching for information about my husband's maternal
      > > > grandmother' s family. THAT FAMILY NAME IS ONDZIK. With the help
      > of
      > > > a genealogist we were able to locate birth records for the
      > siblings
      > > > and birth, death, and marriage records for their parents (my
      > > > husband's g-grandparents) . All three of these village names were
      > > > involved in one or more of these records.
      > > >
      > > > DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THE NAME GELLERT (GELLERT-FALVA) IS THE NAME
      > OF A
      > > > HUNGARIAN WHO "RULED" THERE AT SOME TIME? Another message for
      > this
      > > > group sited a Gellert in Budapest. I too have seen this name
      > > > attached to hotels, hills, etc. in that area.
      > > >
      > > > The reason that we are interested is that a family story said
      > that
      > > > grandmother' s father, Mathias Ondzik born in 1837 in Olcnava,
      > married
      > > > in 1860 to Maria Bacsa in Dobra Volya, and died in 1908 in
      > > > Gellertfalva, was a kind of warden on a "count's estate."
      > > >
      > > > WE ARE WONDERING IF THERE WAS AN ESTATE THERE DURING
      > GRANDFATHER' S
      > > > TIME? WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE NAME OF IT? ETC.? HOW WOULD WE
      > BE
      > > > ABLE TO FIND OUT???
      > > >
      > > > Their first child was born in Kluknava in 1862, their second in
      > Dobra
      > > > Volya in 1864, their third in St. Anne -- a pilgrimage site near
      > > > Kluknava, their fourth in Spisske Vlachy in 1875, and their fifth
      > in
      > > > Gellertfalva in 1881.
      > > >
      > > > Gwen
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
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      >
      >
    • Armata, Joseph R
      Actually, Vol a has a second meaning when used as a place name - it refers to a settlement that was free of taxes or duties for a certain period of time after
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 9, 2009
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        Actually, Vol'a has a second meaning when used as a place name - it refers to a settlement that was free of taxes or duties for a certain period of time after it was created, to induce people to move there, clear the land, build farms, and start working the land (thus making the property more valuable for the noble who owned it).

        Joe

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
        > ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cerrunos1@...
        > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 10:07 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Meaning of Gellertfalva--Gerolsdorf--Dobra Volya
        >
        >
        > dobra vol'a means good will or voluntary, depending on context.
        > Separated, they are Good Will. Together, we have dobrovolna (-y, -e)
        > which means voluntary. In this case, the "y" is the same as an
        > apostrophe- making the L soft. So.... as they are separated... good
        > will.
        >
        > Scholtyz is not a Slovak spelling- and none of this last name exist
        > now. This leads me to think that this spelling, even disregarding the
        > "pravlida (rules)" of Slovak spelling- is erroneous. In comparison,
        > Janosik, the surname of a brigand hanged in 1713, is still very extant
        > in the Terchova region of Slovakia, as well as elsewhere. However,
        > Schultyz I have found to mean erudite or bookman (bookkeeper). This is
        > NOT Slovak.
        >
        > Gellert is right on. However, this could have been in respects to
        > someone who never held real sway/power/ or even seen the area. (Think
        > of Jamestown, Williamsburg, or Elizabethtown.)
        >
        > I hope this helps in some demented way..
        > Ben
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Sun, 2/8/09, jtgen96 <jtgen96@...
        > <mailto:jtgen96%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
        >
        > From: jtgen96 <jtgen96@... <mailto:jtgen96%40yahoo.com> >
        > Subject: [S-R] Re: Meaning of Gellertfalva--Gerolsdorf--Dobra Volya
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SLOVAK-
        > ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 3:40 PM
        >
        > Thomas, What wonderful background you have supplied us for these
        > villages. Thank you so much for sharing.
        > Gwen
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, <treimer@... > wrote:
        > >
        > > Gwen,
        > >
        > > Gellert is a Christian name and simply means Gerhard/Gerold in
        > German (I don't know the meaning of Dobra Vol'a. Dobra means good,
        > but Vol'a?). Wallendorf had a German population from at least after
        > the Mongol invasion to the 1850s when many either emigrated to the US
        > or Budapest, and the rest became magyarized. Slovaks bought their
        > homes. By 1920, there were scarcely 10% Germans left. I was unable to
        > find more on the hamlet Geroldsdorf (also Gerhardsdorf in some
        > documents). Don't be confused if the church records switch from Dobra
        > Vol'a to Gellertfalva in the 1880s. In the 17th-18th centuries, when
        > many villages became slovakized, the Hungarian authorities, who
        > scarcely cared about such trifles, began to use slovak/slovak- derived
        > names for places. But in the 1880s, there was a swing back to using
        > old magyar names, even if these had not been used in centuries.
        > Churches had to follow the law of the land.
        > >
        > > The name is probably that of the "locator" (real estate developer),
        > who brought the settlers over in the 13th century, surveyed and
        > organized the settlement, and as payment was appointed Schulz (which
        > became Scholtyz in Slovak), that is hereditary mayor, with a farm
        > twice the size of the others plus tax free! But it is virtually
        > impossible to find out more about such hamlets, few people bothered
        > to write about them. Also, Wallendorf with its hamlet of Geroldsdorf
        > were mortgaged to the King of Poland from 1412 to 1772, and then
        > formed an autonomous area till 1876 (16 Zipser Cities). As a result,
        > most Hungarian censuses of the Zips do not include these towns and
        > small cities. Kluckenau was a German founded mining town (like
        > neighboring Reichenau, Krompach etc), but local Germans had vanished
        > (wars, epidemics, assimilation) by the early 1700s, though in the
        > 19th and early 20th century a small group of ethnic Germans living
        > there but not natives of the town, were recorded by the census,
        > mainly mining experts and jewish merchants, and some miners. Now
        > Kluckenau and Reichenau, Krompach etc were in the middle ages part of
        > one noble estate, which in 1837 partly belonged to the Csaky, and
        > partly to the Gundelfinger noble families. When looking for forestry
        > records, remember that in the 19th century Wallendorf was in the
        > district (jaras) of Kirchdrauf, while Kluckenau was in the district
        > of Goellnitz.
        > >
        > > Good luck searching.
        > >
        > > Thomas
        > >
      • christine mackara
        Hallo Thomas, I saw your posting about Gerolsdorf and was very interested. I often wondered why I can t find the census 1865 for Presov. Is that the reason,
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 9, 2009
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          Hallo Thomas,

          I saw your posting about Gerolsdorf and was very interested. I often wondered why I can't find the census 1865 for Presov. Is that the reason, that they were autonomous ? To bad, because on it, I could have found the birthplace of Jan Makara. Still looking!
          Christine

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: treimer@...
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: jtgen96
          Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 10:01 PM
          Subject: [S-R] Meaning of Gellertfalva--Gerolsdorf--Dobra Volya


          > Also, Wallendorf with its hamlet of Geroldsdorf were mortgaged to the King of Poland from 1412 to 1772, and then formed an autonomous area till 1876 (16 Zipser Cities). As a result, most Hungarian censuses of the Zips do not include these towns and small cities. <




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ron Matviyak
          Soltyz by any spelling variation and dialect of Slovak or German should be of interest to the list, since it is the Soltys system that was instrumental in
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 9, 2009
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            Soltyz by any spelling variation and dialect of Slovak or German
            should be of interest to the list, since it is the Soltys system that
            was instrumental in founding many of the villages in Slovakia. The
            lower (presumably oldest) section of the main street in Sulin is still
            referred to as S^outystvo by villagers. When I heard it, it sounded
            like the root was a variation on Soltys, either in Slovak or Rusyn.

            I lived in Ketsch, Germany for a year or two and they are quite proud
            of their Schultheiß (Soltys, Schultz) named Enderle. As
            representative of the Lord of the village his responsibility was to
            administer the lord's will, which he did with competence until the
            lord ordered some oppressive and unjust burdens upon the people. As I
            remember it, he then led a revolt and fled for his life when it was
            suppressed, but he won the everlasting respect of the citizens and
            stands in honor in bronze today.

            The relevance to Slovakia and our ancestors is that in the Soltys era
            (much easier to write than Schultheiß) a Soltys was chosen to lead the
            settlers to the Lord's chosen location and direct the establishment of
            the village and farmlands. His reward could include a double portion
            of farmland and mayor ship (Starost / leader) for himself and perhaps
            his children. Circumstances of his reward varied with time and
            location and the local charter. Often the village was granted freedom
            from taxes for 10 or 15 years, and perhaps the Soltys was granted a
            longer period or lighter tax burden.

            I will cross post this on Slovak World and after a week or two of
            commentary and correction will post an update here, if needed.

            Ron

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, <treimer@...> wrote:
            >
            > I don't know Slovak and ran across Scholtyz as the slovakized
            version of Schulz. I guess this website here has the slovak spelling:
            >
            > http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Soltys-family-history.ashx
            >
            > Polish (Soltys), Czech (Šoltys), and Slovak Šoltýs: of German
            origin, a status name for a village headman (see Schultz, Schultheis).
            >
            > Thomas
            >
          • Ben Sorensen
            Yes, Ron, I agree- this part of Slovak history is almost fundamental to understanding the history of the middle-ages in Uhorska/Hungary/Slovakia. I was very
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 9, 2009
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              Yes, Ron, I agree- this part of Slovak history is almost fundamental to understanding the history of the middle-ages in Uhorska/Hungary/Slovakia. I was very tired last night... I am about worn out, methinks.� This gentry was fundamental in the birth of Slovak villages...

              However, I was "on" about the spelling, and for some reason, was focusing on surnames. So, my appologies- I didn't mean for that to read the way it did. Joe's addition to the Vol'a (a to dobrovolne napisane!) is excellent, and I was kicking myself for not thinking of that too... Joe, ste poklad.

              I want to throw in just one little correction, though- "starost" is a concern/care or matter of concern.� The mayor of a city is "primator," and for a village it is "starosta."� Now, for the time-period that the Soltysovia were running around, you may come across "richtar." This was the title for starosta. Mes~tanosta was a primator, usually of the larger cities.

              I hope that this helps with understanding some of the village histories...
              Ben


              --- On Mon, 2/9/09, Ron Matviyak <amiak27@...> wrote:


              From: Ron Matviyak <amiak27@...>
              Subject: [S-R] Re: Meaning of Gellertfalva--Gerolsdorf--Dobra Volya/Schulz names
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 4:55 PM






              Soltyz by any spelling variation and dialect of Slovak or German
              should be of interest to the list, since it is the Soltys system that
              was instrumental in founding many of the villages in Slovakia. The
              lower (presumably oldest) section of the main street in Sulin is still
              referred to as S^outystvo by villagers. When I heard it, it sounded
              like the root was a variation on Soltys, either in Slovak or Rusyn.

              I lived in Ketsch, Germany for a year or two and they are quite proud
              of their Schulthei�� (Soltys, Schultz) named Enderle. As
              representative of the Lord of the village his responsibility was to
              administer the lord's will, which he did with competence until the
              lord ordered some oppressive and unjust burdens upon the people. As I
              remember it, he then led a revolt and fled for his life when it was
              suppressed, but he won the everlasting respect of the citizens and
              stands in honor in bronze today.

              The relevance to Slovakia and our ancestors is that in the Soltys era
              (much easier to write than Schulthei��) a Soltys was chosen to lead the
              settlers to the Lord's chosen location and direct the establishment of
              the village and farmlands. His reward could include a double portion
              of farmland and mayor ship (Starost / leader) for himself and perhaps
              his children. Circumstances of his reward varied with time and
              location and the local charter. Often the village was granted freedom
              from taxes for 10 or 15 years, and perhaps the Soltys was granted a
              longer period or lighter tax burden.

              I will cross post this on Slovak World and after a week or two of
              commentary and correction will post an update here, if needed.

              Ron

              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, <treimer@... > wrote:
              >
              > I don't know Slovak and ran across Scholtyz as the slovakized
              version of Schulz. I guess this website here has the slovak spelling:
              >
              > http://www.ancestry .com/facts/ Soltys-family- history.ashx
              >
              > Polish (Soltys), Czech (��oltys), and Slovak ��olt��s: of German
              origin, a status name for a village headman (see Schultz, Schultheis).
              >
              > Thomas
              >



















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • treimer@nycap.rr.com
              Dear fellow researchers, The Eisdorf book is printed. The cost is Euro 19 plus mailing. It has about 350 pages, incl. many old pictures. It is in German, with
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 9, 2009
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                Dear fellow researchers,

                The Eisdorf book is printed. The cost is Euro 19 plus mailing. It has about 350 pages, incl. many old pictures. It is in German, with English summaries.

                You can order directly from Inge Schmidt at ingetraud-Schmidt@... , who will also tell you how to pay.

                Alles Gute,

                Thomas
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