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RE: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more

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  • Ben Sorensen
    Hi Joe et al... brilliantly guided, and a great resource- but isn t a soft d better said as a normal d but with the flat of the tongue across the palate
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 6, 2008
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      Hi Joe et al...
      brilliantly guided, and a great resource- but isn't a soft d' better said as a normal d but with the flat of the tongue across the palate instead of the tip of the tongue behind the teeth? Same for t' too... I would say, but I am NO expert, and do not wish to quarrel... 
      I wish I had the "technical terms" down for this- but phonetics is something I can do, but have a hard time describing. It still seemed to me, as I just tried out the guides- both yours and (even worse- the attachment!) I felt that your description was VERY close but still not quite the Slovak sound. 
      Once again, I am not trying to disprove anything here, or "go against" what you are saying- as it is in the right direction in my ears-- but it doesn't seem like the sound is still quite right.
      I guess then, could we say that d' is a palatalization of d and t' is a palatalization of t? jCan anyone technically describe how to make these sounds? I know that I will stand corrected here..... :-)
       
      I am just trying to get the sound right for the learners out there.... :-) As I am sure that we have many secretly saying to themselves "Ja som, Ty si, On je....."
       
      Joe, your sound is definately VERY close.... better than that attachment.
       
      Ben


      --- On Wed, 11/5/08, Armata, Joseph R <armata+@...> wrote:

      From: Armata, Joseph R <armata+@...>
      Subject: RE: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
      To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com" <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 12:22 PM






      Here's a web page with the pronunciation of Slovak letters:

      http://www.phantomr anch.net/ folkdanc/ alphabet/ slovak.htm

      The only thing I'd change is the explanation for the letters d' and t'.

      For d', they say "a soft dy" but give no example. They mean the dy sound used when some people pronounce "dues" so it sounds like dyooz (personally, I say dooz). So Slovak d'akujem (thank you) is pronounced dya-koo-jem.

      And the same would go for the letter t'. They say "t as in tune", but they mean the ty sound used when people pronounce it tyoon (I say toon).

      Joe

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-
      > ROOTS@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Michael Mojher
      > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:23 AM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
      >
      > Ben,
      > During the course of my six trips to Slovakia I have been asked many
      > times why I have not learned to speak Slovak. Not having a teacher
      > available is the biggest stumbling block. The other as I learned is
      > that the pronunciation of the alphabet in Slovak is very different from
      > the way it is in English. Add what the dialect marks do and one begins
      > to understand Slovak is not the easiest of languages to learn. It was
      > not until my third trip that I finally had a "ear" for listening to
      > Slovak. On the first two trip a sentence sounded as if it was just one
      > big word to me.
      > The point - it would be very much appreciated if you or any of the
      > other Slovak speakers could phonetically give S-R members the
      > pronunciation of Slovak words. I think of great interest would be how
      > surnames would be pronounced in Slovak. My own Mojher we say MOI - yer
      > in the USA. Whereas in Slovakia their Mojcher is MOI - hair.
      > How would a Slovak pronounce Sorensen?
      > Michael
      >


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William F Brna
      Ben, I stand corrected. I guess I was influenced by my wife s maiden name, which was Sorensen. My mother also wanted us to be successful in America.
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 6, 2008
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        Ben,

        I stand corrected. I guess I was influenced by my wife's maiden name,
        which was Sorensen. My mother also wanted us to be "successful" in
        America. Knowing how to speak Slovak was essential in the area in which
        I grew up. I have just returned from three weeks in Slovakia and was as
        lo "successful" there, since I spoke English only for about thirty
        minutes and that with only two different individuals.

        Bill Brna

        On Thu, 6 Nov 2008 05:05:41 -0800 (PST) Ben Sorensen
        <cerrunos1@...> writes:
        In Denmark, if I am not mistaken, you can find a Sorendatter in some
        places. (My Danish is miserable. Grandma wanted us to be "successful" in
        America- so no "foreign" languages). In Slovak, the translation would be
        Sorenov syn. :-) Isn't this fun?
        I love languages!!!!
        Ben

        --- On Wed, 11/5/08, William F Brna <wfbrna@...> wrote:

        From: William F Brna <wfbrna@...>
        Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 2:34 PM

        Ben,

        Terchnically, your name shoiuld be Sorensyn in Slovak. After all, that
        is what Sorensen is, in Danish. (Soren's son). I believe that they
        still use Sorensen for a boy and Sorensdattir for a girl, in Iceland.

        Bill Brna

        On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:07:36 -0800 (PST) Ben Sorensen
        <cerrunos1@yahoo. com> writes:
        :-)
        Mike,
        Consider a teacher at your disposal. My wife has her PhDr. in Slovak
        Language- from the University of Constantine the Philosopher in Nitra.
        :-) She would be glad to take on more students. ANY TIME.
        Sorensen is pronounced the same everywhere- but Denmark. :-D
        Ben

        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >

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        ____________________________________________________________
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      • Ludovit
        Boy, that sounds familiar. Which is probably why no one ever spoke Slovak much in my family after arriving here. Heck, they even allowed the Z (not much
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 6, 2008
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          Boy, that sounds familiar. Which is probably why no one ever spoke
          Slovak much in my family after arriving here. Heck, they even allowed
          the "Z" (not much choice probably) when arriving in upper Hungary. It
          seems like a natural thing to want to adapt to your new home land.
          Although this isn't the case with all immigrants, it certainly stands
          out to show their pride in 'becoming' Americans (or Servant to the
          crown/what ever the case may be). Different times, different
          attitudes I guess. I have even found where my name's sake had changed
          their first name to accomodate this thinking, changing Ludovit to
          Lajos (Hungarian) to Louis in America. All the same though as I
          understand it.

          Ludovit


          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > In Denmark, if I am not mistaken, you can find a Sorendatter in
          some places. (My Danish is miserable. Grandma wanted us to
          be "successful" in America- so no "foreign" languages). In Slovak,
          the translation would be Sorenov syn. :-) Isn't this fun?
          > I love languages!!!!
          > Ben
          >
          > --- On Wed, 11/5/08, William F Brna <wfbrna@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: William F Brna <wfbrna@...>
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 2:34 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Ben,
          >
          > Terchnically, your name shoiuld be Sorensyn in Slovak. After all,
          that
          > is what Sorensen is, in Danish. (Soren's son). I believe that they
          > still use Sorensen for a boy and Sorensdattir for a girl, in
          Iceland.
          >
          > Bill Brna
          >
          > On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:07:36 -0800 (PST) Ben Sorensen
          > <cerrunos1@yahoo. com> writes:
          > :-)
          > Mike,
          > Consider a teacher at your disposal. My wife has her PhDr. in Slovak
          > Language- from the University of Constantine the Philosopher in
          Nitra.
          > :-) She would be glad to take on more students. ANY TIME.
          > Sorensen is pronounced the same everywhere- but Denmark. :-D
          > Ben
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
          search features.
          > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2141/ fc/Ioyw6i3mDcGEK
          LxgJCMzFQVDIar13 yoGsHGyLQ7UJr26l AstgRk7jE/
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
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          >
        • Joe Armata
          Yes, I think you re right about the pronunciation. The guides in English will be close enough, but a native speaker will always be able to tell! Joe
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 8, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Yes, I think you're right about the pronunciation. The guides in
            English will be close enough, but a native speaker will always be able
            to tell!

            Joe


            > Hi Joe et al...
            > brilliantly guided, and a great resource- but isn't a soft d' better said as a normal d but with the flat of the tongue across the palate instead of the tip of the tongue behind the teeth? Same for t' too... I would say, but I am NO expert, and do not wish to quarrel...
            > I wish I had the "technical terms" down for this- but phonetics is something I can do, but have a hard time describing. It still seemed to me, as I just tried out the guides- both yours and (even worse- the attachment!) I felt that your description was VERY close but still not quite the Slovak sound.
            > Once again, I am not trying to disprove anything here, or "go against" what you are saying- as it is in the right direction in my ears-- but it doesn't seem like the sound is still quite right.
            > I guess then, could we say that d' is a palatalization of d and t' is a palatalization of t? jCan anyone technically describe how to make these sounds? I know that I will stand corrected here..... :-)
            >
            > I am just trying to get the sound right for the learners out there.... :-) As I am sure that we have many secretly saying to themselves "Ja som, Ty si, On je....."
            >
            > Joe, your sound is definately VERY close.... better than that attachment.
            >
            > Ben
            >
            > --- On Wed, 11/5/08, Armata, Joseph R <armata+@...<mailto:armata%2B%40pitt.edu>> wrote:
            >
            > From: Armata, Joseph R <armata+@...<mailto:armata%2B%40pitt.edu>>
            > Subject: RE: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
            > To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>" <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 12:22 PM
            >
            > Here's a web page with the pronunciation of Slovak letters:
            >
            > http://www.phantomr anch.net/ folkdanc/ alphabet/ slovak.htm
            >
            > The only thing I'd change is the explanation for the letters d' and t'.
            >
            > For d', they say "a soft dy" but give no example. They mean the dy sound used when some people pronounce "dues" so it sounds like dyooz (personally, I say dooz). So Slovak d'akujem (thank you) is pronounced dya-koo-jem.
            >
            > And the same would go for the letter t'. They say "t as in tune", but they mean the ty sound used when people pronounce it tyoon (I say toon).
            >
            > Joe
            >
            >> -----Original Message-----
            >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-
            >> ROOTS@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Michael Mojher
            >> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:23 AM
            >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            >> Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
            >>
            >> Ben,
            >> During the course of my six trips to Slovakia I have been asked many
            >> times why I have not learned to speak Slovak. Not having a teacher
            >> available is the biggest stumbling block. The other as I learned is
            >> that the pronunciation of the alphabet in Slovak is very different from
            >> the way it is in English. Add what the dialect marks do and one begins
            >> to understand Slovak is not the easiest of languages to learn. It was
            >> not until my third trip that I finally had a "ear" for listening to
            >> Slovak. On the first two trip a sentence sounded as if it was just one
            >> big word to me.
            >> The point - it would be very much appreciated if you or any of the
            >> other Slovak speakers could phonetically give S-R members the
            >> pronunciation of Slovak words. I think of great interest would be how
            >> surnames would be pronounced in Slovak. My own Mojher we say MOI - yer
            >> in the USA. Whereas in Slovakia their Mojcher is MOI - hair.
            >> How would a Slovak pronounce Sorensen?
            >> Michael
            >>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Tom Geiss
            Time for my two cents worth. I m sure that it s the same in Slovakia as it is in America; You can tell what part of the country someone is from by their
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 8, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Time for my two cents worth. I'm sure that it's the same in Slovakia as it is in America; You can tell what part of the country someone is from by their particular TWANG when they speak. Northeastern U.S. and southern drawl are two easy examples.
              I know that if I ever learn to speak Slovak, native Slovaks will always chuckle when they hear me.
              Tom
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Joe Armata
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 5:48 PM
              Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more


              Yes, I think you're right about the pronunciation. The guides in
              English will be close enough, but a native speaker will always be able
              to tell!

              Joe

              > Hi Joe et al...
              > brilliantly guided, and a great resource- but isn't a soft d' better said as a normal d but with the flat of the tongue across the palate instead of the tip of the tongue behind the teeth? Same for t' too... I would say, but I am NO expert, and do not wish to quarrel...
              > I wish I had the "technical terms" down for this- but phonetics is something I can do, but have a hard time describing. It still seemed to me, as I just tried out the guides- both yours and (even worse- the attachment!) I felt that your description was VERY close but still not quite the Slovak sound.
              > Once again, I am not trying to disprove anything here, or "go against" what you are saying- as it is in the right direction in my ears-- but it doesn't seem like the sound is still quite right.
              > I guess then, could we say that d' is a palatalization of d and t' is a palatalization of t? jCan anyone technically describe how to make these sounds? I know that I will stand corrected here..... :-)
              >
              > I am just trying to get the sound right for the learners out there.... :-) As I am sure that we have many secretly saying to themselves "Ja som, Ty si, On je....."
              >
              > Joe, your sound is definately VERY close.... better than that attachment.
              >
              > Ben
              >
              > --- On Wed, 11/5/08, Armata, Joseph R <armata+@...<mailto:armata%2B%40pitt.edu>> wrote:
              >
              > From: Armata, Joseph R <armata+@...<mailto:armata%2B%40pitt.edu>>
              > Subject: RE: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
              > To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>" <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 12:22 PM
              >
              > Here's a web page with the pronunciation of Slovak letters:
              >
              > http://www.phantomr anch.net/ folkdanc/ alphabet/ slovak.htm
              >
              > The only thing I'd change is the explanation for the letters d' and t'.
              >
              > For d', they say "a soft dy" but give no example. They mean the dy sound used when some people pronounce "dues" so it sounds like dyooz (personally, I say dooz). So Slovak d'akujem (thank you) is pronounced dya-koo-jem.
              >
              > And the same would go for the letter t'. They say "t as in tune", but they mean the ty sound used when people pronounce it tyoon (I say toon).
              >
              > Joe
              >
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-
              >> ROOTS@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Michael Mojher
              >> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:23 AM
              >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              >> Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
              >>
              >> Ben,
              >> During the course of my six trips to Slovakia I have been asked many
              >> times why I have not learned to speak Slovak. Not having a teacher
              >> available is the biggest stumbling block. The other as I learned is
              >> that the pronunciation of the alphabet in Slovak is very different from
              >> the way it is in English. Add what the dialect marks do and one begins
              >> to understand Slovak is not the easiest of languages to learn. It was
              >> not until my third trip that I finally had a "ear" for listening to
              >> Slovak. On the first two trip a sentence sounded as if it was just one
              >> big word to me.
              >> The point - it would be very much appreciated if you or any of the
              >> other Slovak speakers could phonetically give S-R members the
              >> pronunciation of Slovak words. I think of great interest would be how
              >> surnames would be pronounced in Slovak. My own Mojher we say MOI - yer
              >> in the USA. Whereas in Slovakia their Mojcher is MOI - hair.
              >> How would a Slovak pronounce Sorensen?
              >> Michael
              >>
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Mojher
              Joe, I think you are familiar with this link - http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.html For those who don t know this is a map of Slovakia and its dialects
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 8, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Joe,
                I think you are familiar with this link - http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.html
                For those who don't know this is a map of Slovakia and its dialects that Joe had redrawn. It is fascinating to see that there were 33 dialects areas identified in Slovakia. My ancestral village of Hromos was in dialect # 30 - Goral.
                You get appreciate history when it becomes personal. My mother was taught Slovak. She is now 90 years old. That means she learned the Slovak of her parents. The Slovak of the late 1800's. Her parents and my father's parents ended up in Olyphant-Blakeley, PA because of its Slovak community. My mother recalls how "different" Slovak was spoken there. A few years ago when Slovak exchange students started coming to the high school where my sister worked we couldn't help but befriend them. One of the pleasures for my mother was a chance to speak Slovak. But now she was speaking to a generation born in the late 1980's. I couldn't help but ask the exchange students "how they found" my Mother's Slovak. They admitted that they had some difficulty at times because of the dialect she spoke. And just as much the "old fashion" way she spoke.
                Language is organic and it changes. I found that where Goral may have been the dialect of Hromos. The predominant dialect there now is Saris. And just as the mass media, especially television, has supplanted a "standard English" for our dialects. So is Slovakia becoming more "homogenized" in the way they speak. Which is sad, because those dialects were a means for groups of people to have an identity. The Slovaks were able to keep their identity after 900 years of Hungarian rule and now they are finally a nation. Something of value will be lost if the dialects are now lost to modern communications.
                It has been enjoyable to watch the discussion of the thread I started, "pronunciation Juraj and more", has shown the intricacies of the Slovak language.

                From: Joe Armata
                Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 3:48 PM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more


                Yes, I think you're right about the pronunciation. The guides in
                English will be close enough, but a native speaker will always be able
                to tell!

                Joe

                > Hi Joe et al...
                > brilliantly guided, and a great resource- but isn't a soft d' better said as a normal d but with the flat of the tongue across the palate instead of the tip of the tongue behind the teeth? Same for t' too... I would say, but I am NO expert, and do not wish to quarrel...
                > I wish I had the "technical terms" down for this- but phonetics is something I can do, but have a hard time describing. It still seemed to me, as I just tried out the guides- both yours and (even worse- the attachment!) I felt that your description was VERY close but still not quite the Slovak sound.
                > Once again, I am not trying to disprove anything here, or "go against" what you are saying- as it is in the right direction in my ears-- but it doesn't seem like the sound is still quite right.
                > I guess then, could we say that d' is a palatalization of d and t' is a palatalization of t? jCan anyone technically describe how to make these sounds? I know that I will stand corrected here..... :-)
                >
                > I am just trying to get the sound right for the learners out there.... :-) As I am sure that we have many secretly saying to themselves "Ja som, Ty si, On je....."
                >
                > Joe, your sound is definately VERY close.... better than that attachment.
                >
                > Ben
                >
                > --- On Wed, 11/5/08, Armata, Joseph R <armata+@...<mailto:armata%2B%40pitt.edu>> wrote:
                >
                > From: Armata, Joseph R <armata+@...<mailto:armata%2B%40pitt.edu>>
                > Subject: RE: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
                > To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>" <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>>
                > Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 12:22 PM
                >
                > Here's a web page with the pronunciation of Slovak letters:
                >
                > http://www.phantomr anch.net/ folkdanc/ alphabet/ slovak.htm
                >
                > The only thing I'd change is the explanation for the letters d' and t'.
                >
                > For d', they say "a soft dy" but give no example. They mean the dy sound used when some people pronounce "dues" so it sounds like dyooz (personally, I say dooz). So Slovak d'akujem (thank you) is pronounced dya-koo-jem.
                >
                > And the same would go for the letter t'. They say "t as in tune", but they mean the ty sound used when people pronounce it tyoon (I say toon).
                >
                > Joe
                >
                >> -----Original Message-----
                >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                >> ROOTS@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Michael Mojher
                >> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:23 AM
                >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                >> Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
                >>
                >> Ben,
                >> During the course of my six trips to Slovakia I have been asked many
                >> times why I have not learned to speak Slovak. Not having a teacher
                >> available is the biggest stumbling block. The other as I learned is
                >> that the pronunciation of the alphabet in Slovak is very different from
                >> the way it is in English. Add what the dialect marks do and one begins
                >> to understand Slovak is not the easiest of languages to learn. It was
                >> not until my third trip that I finally had a "ear" for listening to
                >> Slovak. On the first two trip a sentence sounded as if it was just one
                >> big word to me.
                >> The point - it would be very much appreciated if you or any of the
                >> other Slovak speakers could phonetically give S-R members the
                >> pronunciation of Slovak words. I think of great interest would be how
                >> surnames would be pronounced in Slovak. My own Mojher we say MOI - yer
                >> in the USA. Whereas in Slovakia their Mojcher is MOI - hair.
                >> How would a Slovak pronounce Sorensen?
                >> Michael
                >>
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Synaptic Freak
                yeah...Dialects :-)   http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/ Its all about music, I call myself Top Quark.
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 8, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  yeah...Dialects :-)
                   
                  http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/


                  Its all about music, I call myself Top Quark.
                  ______________________________________________________________________________
                  Music Page:
                  http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=232115&content=music

                  Personal Profile Page:
                  http://www.soundclick.com/members/default.cfm?member=topquark

                  Interesting stuff: Defenestration, Trepanation (Just imagine, a trepanic drill!!...lol), Synesthesia
                  ______________________________________________________________________________

                  --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Tom Geiss <tomfgurka@...> wrote:

                  From: Tom Geiss <tomfgurka@...>
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 3:32 AM






                  Time for my two cents worth. I'm sure that it's the same in Slovakia as it is in America; You can tell what part of the country someone is from by their particular TWANG when they speak. Northeastern U.S. and southern drawl are two easy examples.
                  I know that if I ever learn to speak Slovak, native Slovaks will always chuckle when they hear me.
                  Tom
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Joe Armata
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 5:48 PM
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more

                  Yes, I think you're right about the pronunciation. The guides in
                  English will be close enough, but a native speaker will always be able
                  to tell!

                  Joe

                  > Hi Joe et al...
                  > brilliantly guided, and a great resource- but isn't a soft d' better said as a normal d but with the flat of the tongue across the palate instead of the tip of the tongue behind the teeth? Same for t' too... I would say, but I am NO expert, and do not wish to quarrel...
                  > I wish I had the "technical terms" down for this- but phonetics is something I can do, but have a hard time describing. It still seemed to me, as I just tried out the guides- both yours and (even worse- the attachment!) I felt that your description was VERY close but still not quite the Slovak sound.
                  > Once again, I am not trying to disprove anything here, or "go against" what you are saying- as it is in the right direction in my ears-- but it doesn't seem like the sound is still quite right.
                  > I guess then, could we say that d' is a palatalization of d and t' is a palatalization of t? jCan anyone technically describe how to make these sounds? I know that I will stand corrected here..... :-)
                  >
                  > I am just trying to get the sound right for the learners out there.... :-) As I am sure that we have many secretly saying to themselves "Ja som, Ty si, On je....."
                  >
                  > Joe, your sound is definately VERY close.... better than that attachment.
                  >
                  > Ben
                  >
                  > --- On Wed, 11/5/08, Armata, Joseph R <armata+@pitt. edu<mailto:armata% 2B%40pitt. edu>> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Armata, Joseph R <armata+@pitt. edu<mailto:armata% 2B%40pitt. edu>>
                  > Subject: RE: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
                  > To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com<mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com>" <SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com<mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com>>
                  > Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 12:22 PM
                  >
                  > Here's a web page with the pronunciation of Slovak letters:
                  >
                  > http://www.phantomr anch.net/ folkdanc/ alphabet/ slovak.htm
                  >
                  > The only thing I'd change is the explanation for the letters d' and t'.
                  >
                  > For d', they say "a soft dy" but give no example. They mean the dy sound used when some people pronounce "dues" so it sounds like dyooz (personally, I say dooz). So Slovak d'akujem (thank you) is pronounced dya-koo-jem.
                  >
                  > And the same would go for the letter t'. They say "t as in tune", but they mean the ty sound used when people pronounce it tyoon (I say toon).
                  >
                  > Joe
                  >
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-
                  >> ROOTS@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Michael Mojher
                  >> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:23 AM
                  >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  >> Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
                  >>
                  >> Ben,
                  >> During the course of my six trips to Slovakia I have been asked many
                  >> times why I have not learned to speak Slovak. Not having a teacher
                  >> available is the biggest stumbling block. The other as I learned is
                  >> that the pronunciation of the alphabet in Slovak is very different from
                  >> the way it is in English. Add what the dialect marks do and one begins
                  >> to understand Slovak is not the easiest of languages to learn. It was
                  >> not until my third trip that I finally had a "ear" for listening to
                  >> Slovak. On the first two trip a sentence sounded as if it was just one
                  >> big word to me.
                  >> The point - it would be very much appreciated if you or any of the
                  >> other Slovak speakers could phonetically give S-R members the
                  >> pronunciation of Slovak words. I think of great interest would be how
                  >> surnames would be pronounced in Slovak. My own Mojher we say MOI - yer
                  >> in the USA. Whereas in Slovakia their Mojcher is MOI - hair.
                  >> How would a Slovak pronounce Sorensen?
                  >> Michael
                  >>
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • bemimitwo@aol.com
                  HI ALL, Then would the Moravian language be more Slovak than Czech? My family was from lipov area and i know it was not proper czech. Thanks Jennifer [Non-text
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 8, 2008
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                    HI ALL,
                    Then would the Moravian language be more Slovak than Czech? My family was
                    from lipov
                    area and i know it was not proper czech.
                    Thanks Jennifer


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Mojher
                    Jennifer, I found this quote, Moravian, a transitional language between Czech and Slovak and comprising a group of dialects, is also spoken. Joe s map uses
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 8, 2008
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                      Jennifer,
                      I found this quote, "Moravian, a transitional language between Czech and Slovak and comprising a group of dialects, is also spoken."
                      Joe's map uses the modern border of Slovakia to show the 33 dialects. I have discovered that those borders did not mean a thing in the 1800's. The Goral dialect was spoken on both the Slovak and Polish sides of the Carpathian Mountains. Dialects are more a social construct than a political one. For the Goral dialect it certainly was helped when Poland had jurisdiction over the area for 150 years. Still the peoples of this area regardless were in contact with one another so much that the Goral dialect developed.
                      Lipov is not that far from the present Slovak border. The nearest area on the dialect map is #22 Zahorie. Even closer is a sub-dialect - 22b - Skalica. It would not be surprising to find out that the Liptov dialect is very close to the Skalica one. In a way dialects are 'transitional languages'. Liptov being closer to Slovakia was more than likely influenced more by Slovak than by Czech.


                      From: bemimitwo@...
                      Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 9:12 PM
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more


                      HI ALL,
                      Then would the Moravian language be more Slovak than Czech? My family was
                      from lipov
                      area and i know it was not proper czech.
                      Thanks Jennifer

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • MEMcDTT@aol.com
                      Good morning Mike and SR listers, Does the dialect link work for everyone else? I found a picture of Joe but got the Not Found message for the dialect link.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 9, 2008
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                        Good morning Mike and SR listers,
                        Does the dialect link work for everyone else?
                        I found a picture of Joe but got the "Not Found" message for the dialect
                        link.
                        I was hoping to see the Bokliarka and Hervartov area!
                        Thanks, Mike McDermott, San Jose, CA

                        In a message dated 11/8/2008 6:38:14 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                        mgmojher@... writes:

                        Joe,
                        I think you are familiar with this link -
                        _http://www.pitt.http://www.phttp://wwhttp_ (http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.html)
                        For those who don't know this is a map of Slovakia and its dialects that Joe
                        had redrawn. It is fascinating to see that there were 33 dialects areas
                        identified in Slovakia. My ancestral village of Hromos was in dialect # 30 -
                        Goral.



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • bemimitwo@aol.com
                        Thank you for reply, I wish I would have taken more interest in learning the language when I was young and they were still alive. When I tried to transulate a
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 9, 2008
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                          Thank you for reply,
                          I wish I would have taken more interest in learning the language when I was
                          young and they were still alive.
                          When I tried to transulate a letter from my family using a dictionary the
                          first few word were ok but then a word transulated as urine? Well i told my
                          sister ether this is not going to work or this family really does
                          not want to here from us! .....We sent to be translated!..... Turned out they
                          were happy to here from us.
                          Now i am thinking if there is a Slovak dictionary this could be what i should
                          be using.
                          Thanks again,
                          Jennifer


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • William F Brna
                          Tom Geiss wrote: I know that if I ever learn to speak Slovak, native Slovaks will always chuckle when they hear me.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 9, 2008
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                            Tom Geiss wrote: >I know that if I ever learn to speak Slovak, native
                            Slovaks will always chuckle when they hear me. <

                            Not so, Tom. I have just returned from my fourth trip to Slovakia. I
                            don't know whether I would be classed as a "native Slovak" since I was
                            taught to speak the language by my parents, but no one chuckled when I
                            spoke Slovak. In fact, they were most appreciative of the fact that I
                            did speak Slovak, even with my occasional grammatical error. On my most
                            recent trip, I spent three weeks in Slovakia and spoke English for only
                            about a half-hour of the entire three weeks. Several people commented to
                            me how well I spoke Slovak. Only two people spoke English with me and
                            one of those was a native-born Englishman who could not speak Slovak at
                            all.

                            William F. Brna
                            ____________________________________________________________
                            Find precision scales that can weigh anything. Click now!
                            http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mPT3VzJQ4ojXS0CAh5JBQ7nHMafPE8eXg0u9wcWzhM86mPw/

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Tom Geiss
                            Yes, William, I know well that people of every country appreciate it if you just TRY to speak their language, even if you stumble. And Jennifer, I highly
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 9, 2008
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                              Yes, William, I know well that people of every country appreciate it if you just TRY to speak their language, even if you stumble.

                              And Jennifer, I highly recommend that you get, not just a dictionary , but you will need a grammar as well, as there are so very many different tenses of the verbs.
                              I've been trying to learn it off and on now for a couple of years, but , when someone sends me a newspaper clipping, I can barely figure it out, even with a Slovak, English dictionary.
                              I sent a Slovak pastor a letter last week trying to find some information regarding my family member, and I wrote BOLA NARODIL, only to figure out later that it should have been, NADODIL SA? I suppose that too isn't completely correct??

                              The book I have is called COLLOQUIAL SLOVAK by JAMES NAUGHTON. Someone ordered for me from the internet. As I say , Slovak can be a bit tricky, for a beginner.
                              Tom
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: William F Brna
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:40 AM
                              Subject: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more


                              Tom Geiss wrote: >I know that if I ever learn to speak Slovak, native
                              Slovaks will always chuckle when they hear me. <

                              Not so, Tom. I have just returned from my fourth trip to Slovakia. I
                              don't know whether I would be classed as a "native Slovak" since I was
                              taught to speak the language by my parents, but no one chuckled when I
                              spoke Slovak. In fact, they were most appreciative of the fact that I
                              did speak Slovak, even with my occasional grammatical error. On my most
                              recent trip, I spent three weeks in Slovakia and spoke English for only
                              about a half-hour of the entire three weeks. Several people commented to
                              me how well I spoke Slovak. Only two people spoke English with me and
                              one of those was a native-born Englishman who could not speak Slovak at
                              all.

                              William F. Brna
                              __________________________________________________________
                              Find precision scales that can weigh anything. Click now!
                              http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mPT3VzJQ4ojXS0CAh5JBQ7nHMafPE8eXg0u9wcWzhM86mPw/

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • bemimitwo@aol.com
                              Thanks Tom, I will be searching the net for books to buy! Jennifer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 9, 2008
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                                Thanks Tom,
                                I will be searching the net for books to buy!
                                Jennifer


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Nick Holcz
                                No the link comes up as page not found. Anyone got the correct url please? Nick
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 9, 2008
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                                  No the link comes up as page not found. Anyone got the correct url please?

                                  Nick
                                • Michael Mojher
                                  http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.htm From: Nick Holcz Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 8:25 PM To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [S-R]
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 9, 2008
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                                    http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.htm


                                    From: Nick Holcz
                                    Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 8:25 PM
                                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more


                                    No the link comes up as page not found. Anyone got the correct url please?

                                    Nick





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Ron Matviyak
                                    the link worked fine for me both times it was posted. ... please?
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 10, 2008
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                                      the link worked fine for me both times it was posted.



                                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Mojher" <mgmojher@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.pitt.edu/~armata/dialects.htm
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: Nick Holcz
                                      > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 8:25 PM
                                      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [S-R] pronunciation Juraj and more
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No the link comes up as page not found. Anyone got the correct url
                                      please?
                                      >
                                      > Nick
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
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