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RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak

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  • kozlay
    Dear Paul, I do not think the entry below Maria s on the 1904 manifest could be her mother. The two were both 19 years old, and the second one appears to be
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
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      Dear Paul,



      I do not think the entry below Maria's on the 1904 manifest could be her
      mother. The two were both 19 years old, and the second one appears to be
      coming from a different place and having a different destination. Nor do I
      think the name looks like Krajniak. To me it looks more like Jarajnak. The
      transcriber read it as Tarajnak.



      Are you even certain that Maria's mother ever immigrated? There are lots of
      Maria Krajniaks in the Ellis Island records, though I don't see any that
      might qualify age-wise.



      You are probably right that all these Kostyaks are related in some way,
      though you won't know for certain until you look at the Slovak records.
      Since it is likely you will find numerous people in there with the same
      name, it will be important to distinguish carefully between them, working
      out various family groupings based on parentage, siblings, spouses, dates of
      birth, etc. Keep in mind that only birth and marriage records can be used
      to establish the dates of those occurrences. You cannot, for instance,
      depend on stated age at marriage to establish a firm date of birth.



      I warn you that this is not an easy task. You can only hope that the records
      contain all the information you need. For instance, if a marriage record
      does not include the names of the bride and groom's parents, it may be
      difficult to place that marriage correctly in your family tree. The earlier
      you go, the more likely it is that there will be missing information. Also,
      you need to be prepared to find some people with more than one spouse. Death
      rates were pretty high, even among those who were relatively young, and
      remarriages often took place shortly after the death of a spouse. (Someone
      had to care for the children or support the family.) I found one instance in
      my own research in which a wife died and later that same year the deceased
      wife's brother was witness to the remarriage.



      I applaud you for your determination to sort all of this out. It can be very
      exciting work.



      Let me know if there is anything else I can do.



      Janet









      _____

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
      Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:32 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: kaytsok@...
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak



      Hi Janet:

      First, let me clear that words cannot express my gratitude thus far. Also,
      I realize you cannot continue to focus on my family to the extent that I
      would like. So anytime you need to stop, I understand completely.

      You are able to read these manifests remarkably. At this point, one
      question for you is that on the 1904 manifiest for Maria Miscovics, my
      grandmother, do you concur that the entry below Maria on the same manifest
      is her mother, my great-grandmother, Maria Krajniak?

      As an aside, it is my belief that many, many of the Kostyak's here in the
      Pennsylvania are are related. (I have just now come to that suspicion.)
      I need to connect the dots from John/Johannes/Janos born 1878, my
      grandfather, to the band/sibs of Kostyak's from the 1860's and 1870's.
      Based on reasonable analysis of the ages, my best guess is that Andres (born
      1858) is his father, but there are a couple of other possibilities.
      Also, there is a second Frank Kostyak from Braddock, PA (he had 8 children.
      All these years, we didn't think we were related to him, but now I suspect
      they are all kin to this same band/sibs, so they are likely cousins) who
      died a few years ago (the first Frank/Francis was my dad who also died 5
      years ago). It is my belief that Frank from Braddock (born 1888) was also
      a son of one of this same band of Kostyaks (Andres/Janos/Pal/Michely/et al)

      Finally, I see a Janos born1843 immigrated in 1889 on the Breman that I will
      take a wild guess and say he is the dad of this same band/sibs of Kostyaks.

      Finally, finally, I see an number of Janos Kostyak's. (born: 1843 (the one
      I just identified), 1862, (who I think is his son and one of this same
      band/sibs), 1871 (not sure who he is), 1875 (not sure who he is), 1878 (my
      grandfather as discussed) and 1886 (probably a child of one of the band/sibs
      discussed.

      Do you think I may be on the right track with all of this, or am I way off?
      Apparently, my family history center is closed the month of August.
      I'll be meeting with my newly hired genealogist, Elissa Powell here in
      Pittsburgh, next week.

      Thanks, Janet. I am determined to get this all right no matter how long it
      takes and how much it costs.

      Paul

      --- On Wed, 8/6/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net>
      net> wrote:

      From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:47 AM

      Dear Paul,

      The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the husband of
      Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children to her
      husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.

      Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.

      Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John Kostyak's
      wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth about
      1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
      1904.

      As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not uncommon.
      The date would have been provided by a family member who may not have been
      certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
      birth record in Slovakia.

      Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.

      The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family comes from
      the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good illustration of
      how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
      This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
      Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of birth,
      marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
      glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a copy of
      the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This will help
      you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the record.
      It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
      from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended to marry
      other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be significant
      information relative to their social standing in the village and help you
      learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
      greater interest than just names and dates.

      Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
      would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
      (www.iabsi.com) . There is so much valuable information there, you can spend
      several days going through it all and you may find yourself going back to it
      time and time again.

      Janet

      _____

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
      On
      Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
      Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:27 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Cc: kaytsok@yahoo. com
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak

      Hello Janet:

      Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
      thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be able to
      grasp things better.

      I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
      the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the next
      day or 2.

      I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as Casparus
      and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
      came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
      born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some fashion.

      I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone reads
      1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
      additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
      comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
      (1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
      different.

      Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend boy for
      a flower shop, etc.?

      Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
      to you. We'll deal with that later.

      Thanks,
      Paul

      --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net>
      net> wrote:

      From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net> net>
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com> yahoogroups. com
      Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:34 PM

      Paul,

      Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
      Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.

      Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak. Lassupatak
      went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
      Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are essentially the
      same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
      MapQuest and see how close they are.

      Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
      Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the village
      of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you would
      likely need to order the films from both.

      Janet

      _____

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
      com]
      On
      Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
      Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [S-R] Johannes Kostak

      Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
      doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
      the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
      Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
      but let's start with Kostak.

      My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
      siblings which I have good information on.

      Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
      tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.

      I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
      license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
      believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
      Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
      related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
      his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
      absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
      puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
      from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
      Michael Miscovics)

      This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
      Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
      estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
      don't know her maiden name.

      For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
      Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
      starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
      Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
      this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
      marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
      is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)

      So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
      Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
      Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.

      Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.

      My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.

      Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.

      Paul

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ben Sorensen
      Hello all,   In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in finding original locations, and very often I find the place of birth or
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
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        Hello all,
         
        In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this country there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is LDS) says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally am hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck? Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working though... when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.  Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)" and then are good
        at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
         
        Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
        Ben




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com
        Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the FHL. He is also taking the easy way out. I ve already made my opinion known about
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
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          Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
          FHL.
          He is also taking the easy way out.
          I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
          but never as authority.

          I have written extensively about birth sources.
          http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/ancestral_village.htm

          With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
          detailed data until 1904.
          Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
          1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
          arrival notwithstanding.)

          with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
          for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
          information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
          certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
          war, etcetera.)

          Bill Tarkulich


          On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hello all,
          >
          > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
          > finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
          > "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
          country
          > there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
          LDS)
          > says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
          > can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
          am
          > hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
          > Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
          > geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
          though...
          > when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
          > Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
          > exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
          > allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
          > and then are good
          > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
          > villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
          >
          > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
          > Ben
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Ben Sorensen
          ... From: bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday,
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            --- On Thu, 8/7/08, bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

            From: bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...>
            Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 3:53 PM







            Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
            FHL.
            He is also taking the easy way out.
            I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
            but never as authority.

            I have written extensively about birth sources.
            http://www.iabsi. com/gen/public/ ancestral_ village.htm

            With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
            detailed data until 1904.
            Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
            1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
            arrival notwithstanding. )

            with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
            for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
            information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
            certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
            war, etcetera.)

            Bill Tarkulich

            On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hello all,
            >
            > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
            > finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
            > "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
            country
            > there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
            LDS)
            > says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
            > can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
            am
            > hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
            > Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
            > geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
            though...
            > when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
            > Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
            > exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
            > allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
            > and then are good
            > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
            > villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
            >
            > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
            > Ben
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >

















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ben Sorensen
            I am so sorry that there is a blank post on its way.  My hand malfunctioned and clicked the send button on its own. I am very sorry. Ben ... From:
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              I am so sorry that there is a blank post on its way.  My hand malfunctioned and clicked the send button on its own. I am very sorry.
              Ben

              --- On Thu, 8/7/08, bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

              From: bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...>
              Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 3:53 PM







              Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
              FHL.
              He is also taking the easy way out.
              I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
              but never as authority.

              I have written extensively about birth sources.
              http://www.iabsi. com/gen/public/ ancestral_ village.htm

              With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
              detailed data until 1904.
              Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
              1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
              arrival notwithstanding. )

              with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
              for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
              information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
              certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
              war, etcetera.)

              Bill Tarkulich

              On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hello all,
              >
              > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
              > finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
              > "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
              country
              > there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
              LDS)
              > says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
              > can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
              am
              > hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
              > Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
              > geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
              though...
              > when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
              > Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
              > exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
              > allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
              > and then are good
              > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
              > villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
              >
              > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
              > Ben
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              > http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              > SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ssultonia
              Ben, I had the opposite experience with Petitions for Citizenship. That was the first place that gave me a clue where my GF was born. He listed the village
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
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                Ben,
                I had the opposite experience with Petitions for Citizenship. That
                was the first place that gave me a clue where my GF was born. He
                listed the village where he was born as "Almas" and through some kind
                folks on this forum I learned that it was now Jablonov. That was the
                breakthrough I needed and from there the LDS films helped fill in most
                of the blanks. He also listed his last place of residence before
                leaving as "Lucksa", which is right around the corner from Jablonov.
                So, I guess it shows how much the records vary and that what works for
                one may not for another depending on the time and location when the
                documents were originated.
                Cheers,
                Bill
                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello all,
                >
                > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting
                in finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of
                birth" or "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously,
                in this country there wasn't much importance given to exact locations.
                My prof (who is LDS) says that "one can use the IGI to find localities
                of origination, and it can save you alot of tedius research in
                American sources." I personally am hesitant about the IGI- what
                sources have given you the best luck? Personally, I am finding Death
                Records to be good- though one has to know geography for it to be of
                assistance. I can see this not working though... when those present
                don't know which city or village the person was from. Petitions for
                citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an exact
                location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
                allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the
                like)" and then are good
                > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities,
                towns, or villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat
                demanding.
                >
                > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                > Ben
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • kozlay
                There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the place of
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
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                  There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                  Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                  place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                  not contain this information. See
                  http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.



                  Janet





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • PAULA BYRD
                  Janet, do you have an email address that works, this one says not found Paula ... From: kozlay To:
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Janet,

                    do you have an email address that works, this one says not found

                    Paula
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@...>
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:39 PM
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources


                    There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                    Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                    place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                    not contain this information. See
                    http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

                    Janet

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • kozlay
                    Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from kozlay@comcast.net to kozlay@verizon.net. I don t know why you have had problems since I believe I
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from
                      kozlay@... to kozlay@.... I don't know why you have had
                      problems since I believe I am receiving emails at the new address. You can
                      also try me at kozlay@....



                      Janet





                      _____

                      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of PAULA BYRD
                      Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:51 PM
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources



                      Janet,

                      do you have an email address that works, this one says not found

                      Paula
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:39 PM
                      Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources

                      There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                      Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                      place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                      not contain this information. See
                      http://www.genealog <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>
                      ybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealog
                      <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>
                      ybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

                      Janet

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ssultonia
                      Janet, Oops. You re right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break. Regards. Bill ...
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Janet,
                        Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                        confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                        Regards.
                        Bill

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                        is the
                        > Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                        > place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                        usually does
                        > not contain this information. See
                        > http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Janet
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • PAULA BYRD
                        Janet, I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Janet,

                          I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html> and the other one you have listed , it brings up a site that says not found.

                          Paula
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@...>
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:18 PM
                          Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources


                          Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from
                          kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...> to kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...>. I don't know why you have had
                          problems since I believe I am receiving emails at the new address. You can
                          also try me at kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...>.

                          Janet

                          _____

                          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                          Behalf Of PAULA BYRD
                          Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:51 PM
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources

                          Janet,

                          do you have an email address that works, this one says not found

                          Paula
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:39 PM
                          Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources

                          There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                          Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                          place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                          not contain this information. See
                          http://www.genealog<http://www.genealog/> <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>>
                          ybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealog<http://www.genealog/>
                          <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>>
                          ybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

                          Janet

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • MEMcDTT@aol.com
                          In a message dated 8/7/2008 5:58:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, crazyquilter3@msn.com writes:
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 8/7/2008 5:58:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                            crazyquilter3@... writes:

                            <_http://www.genealoghttp://wwwhttp://www.geneahttp://w_
                            (http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.) >>


                            See the period after "html" that is what caused the problem

                            Janet wrote,

                            I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the
                            www.genealogybranchI was meaning thI was
                            mean<_http://www.genealoghttp://wwwhttp://www.geneahttp://_ (http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html) > and
                            the other one you have listed , it brings up a site that says not found.



                            **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                            Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                            (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ben Sorensen
                            I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin states that
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place of origin... :-)
                               
                              Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals," I am very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already warned, many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before 1900.
                               
                              EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would definitely recommend it to anyone.  I am thoroughly enjoying this, and this group...
                              Ben

                              --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@...> wrote:

                              From: ssultonia <wasmore@...>
                              Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM






                              Janet,
                              Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                              confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                              Regards.
                              Bill

                              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                              is the
                              > Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                              > place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                              usually does
                              > not contain this information. See
                              > http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Janet
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >


















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • kozlay
                              Here, let s try it one more time: http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html Janet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 8, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Here, let's try it one more time:



                                http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html



                                Janet





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com
                                I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on a second
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 8, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming
                                  circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on
                                  a second independent authoritative source to corroborate it. yea, I'm
                                  being a broken record.

                                  so if what you are doing is "theory", THE most important thing you can do
                                  is to cite and record sources for all data. That way, when you go back,
                                  people can develop their own opinions about whether the data element is
                                  credible.

                                  Regarding "Prussia". Don't be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath
                                  water. One inaccurate data element is not necessarily grounds to discount
                                  the whole document. It is never clear to me who the source of the
                                  information was for all or part of this information. Self? Clerk?
                                  Offspring? Friend? In some cases, it was simply confusion on the part of
                                  the immigrant. In most cases these folk were ignorant (not stupid),
                                  illiterate rural folks from small obscure region.

                                  Regards,
                                  Bill



                                  On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a
                                  > practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin
                                  > states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place
                                  > of origin... :-)
                                  >
                                  > Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals," I am
                                  > very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already
                                  warned,
                                  > many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before
                                  > 1900.
                                  >
                                  > EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it
                                  > has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would
                                  > definitely recommend it to anyone. I am thoroughly enjoying this, and
                                  > this group...
                                  > Ben
                                  >
                                  > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: ssultonia <wasmore@...>
                                  > Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Janet,
                                  > Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                  > confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                  > Regards.
                                  > Bill
                                  >
                                  > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                  > is the
                                  >> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                  >> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                  > usually does
                                  >> not contain this information. See
                                  >> http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Janet
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Margo Smith
                                  Ben -- poverty of American records before 1900 ?  In my experience, there are many more American records available than SK records.  Once a US location
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 8, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Ben -- "poverty of American records before 1900"?  In my experience, there are many more American records available than SK records.  Once a US location became a county, there are often a lot of records.  Of course, there are too many "burned courthouse" cases.
                                     
                                    Margo

                                    --- On Fri, 8/8/08, bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

                                    From: bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 8:10 AM







                                    I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming
                                    circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on
                                    a second independent authoritative source to corroborate it. yea, I'm
                                    being a broken record.

                                    so if what you are doing is "theory", THE most important thing you can do
                                    is to cite and record sources for all data. That way, when you go back,
                                    people can develop their own opinions about whether the data element is
                                    credible.

                                    Regarding "Prussia". Don't be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath
                                    water. One inaccurate data element is not necessarily grounds to discount
                                    the whole document. It is never clear to me who the source of the
                                    information was for all or part of this information. Self? Clerk?
                                    Offspring? Friend? In some cases, it was simply confusion on the part of
                                    the immigrant. In most cases these folk were ignorant (not stupid),
                                    illiterate rural folks from small obscure region.

                                    Regards,
                                    Bill

                                    On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
                                    wrote:
                                    > I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a
                                    > practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin
                                    > states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place
                                    > of origin... :-)
                                    >
                                    > Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals, " I am
                                    > very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already
                                    warned,
                                    > many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before
                                    > 1900.
                                    >
                                    > EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it
                                    > has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would
                                    > definitely recommend it to anyone. I am thoroughly enjoying this, and
                                    > this group...
                                    > Ben
                                    >
                                    > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@att. net> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: ssultonia <wasmore@att. net>
                                    > Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Janet,
                                    > Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                    > confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                    > Regards.
                                    > Bill
                                    >
                                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                    > is the
                                    >> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                    >> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                    > usually does
                                    >> not contain this information. See
                                    >> http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> Janet
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                    >
                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                    > http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                    > SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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