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Re: [S-R] Johannes Kostak

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  • betseyannk
    Paul, It looks like your grandparents naturalization records may be on www.footnote.com. Just search on Kostyak. Good Luck. Betsey Ann ... reflected on all
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 6, 2008
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      Paul,

      It looks like your grandparents naturalization records may be on
      www.footnote.com. Just search on "Kostyak."

      Good Luck.
      Betsey Ann


      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Paul Kostyak <kaytsok@...> wrote:
      >
      > You are the best. After I have looked at Bill's website and
      reflected on all of this, I will be back to you. I am overwhelmed
      (in a good way!)
      >
      > Paul
      >
      > --- On Wed, 8/6/08, kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: kozlay <kozlay@...>
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:47 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear Paul,
      >
      > The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the
      husband of
      > Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children
      to her
      > husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.
      >
      > Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.
      >
      > Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John
      Kostyak's
      > wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth
      about
      > 1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
      > 1904.
      >
      > As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not
      uncommon.
      > The date would have been provided by a family member who may not
      have been
      > certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
      > birth record in Slovakia.
      >
      > Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.
      >
      > The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family
      comes from
      > the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good
      illustration of
      > how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
      > This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
      > Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of
      birth,
      > marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
      > glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a
      copy of
      > the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This
      will help
      > you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the
      record.
      > It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
      > from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended
      to marry
      > other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be
      significant
      > information relative to their social standing in the village and
      help you
      > learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
      > greater interest than just names and dates.
      >
      > Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
      > would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
      > (www.iabsi.com) . There is so much valuable information there, you
      can spend
      > several days going through it all and you may find yourself going
      back to it
      > time and time again.
      >
      > Janet
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@
      yahoogroups. com] On
      > Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
      > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:27 AM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      > Cc: kaytsok@yahoo. com
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
      >
      > Hello Janet:
      >
      > Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
      > thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be
      able to
      > grasp things better.
      >
      > I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
      > the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the
      next
      > day or 2.
      >
      > I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as
      Casparus
      > and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
      > came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
      > born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some
      fashion.
      >
      > I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone
      reads
      > 1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
      > additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
      > comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
      > (1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
      > different.
      >
      > Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend
      boy for
      > a flower shop, etc.?
      >
      > Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
      > to you. We'll deal with that later.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Paul
      >
      > --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%
      40verizon. net>
      > net> wrote:
      >
      > From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net> net>
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com>
      yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:34 PM
      >
      > Paul,
      >
      > Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
      > Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.
      >
      > Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak.
      Lassupatak
      > went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
      > Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are
      essentially the
      > same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
      > MapQuest and see how close they are.
      >
      > Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
      > Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the
      village
      > of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you
      would
      > likely need to order the films from both.
      >
      > Janet
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@
      yahoogroups. com]
      > On
      > Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
      > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      > Subject: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
      >
      > Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
      > doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
      > the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
      > Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
      > but let's start with Kostak.
      >
      > My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
      > siblings which I have good information on.
      >
      > Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
      > tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.
      >
      > I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
      > license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
      > believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
      > Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
      > related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
      > his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
      > absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
      > puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
      > from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
      > Michael Miscovics)
      >
      > This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
      > Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
      > estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
      > don't know her maiden name.
      >
      > For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
      > Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
      > starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
      > Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
      > this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
      > marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
      > is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)
      >
      > So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
      > Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
      > Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.
      >
      > Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.
      >
      > My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.
      >
      > Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.
      >
      > Paul
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Ben Sorensen
      I am about 90 percent sure, just from knowing Slovakia, (nuttin scientific...) that Kostak was pronounced Koshtak with a paletized t. The apostrophe referred
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 6, 2008
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        I am about 90 percent sure, just from knowing Slovakia, (nuttin scientific...) that Kostak was pronounced Koshtak with a paletized t. The apostrophe referred to here is really a handwritten/now printed makcen softening the consonant, used on tall letters, T gets an apostrophe in the lower case and the "v" in the upper case.  Therefore, the apostrophe may be found also like this in records :Ť.  Consequently, L never gets the "v" and only an apostrophe in printed literature, regardless of case.
         
        I would expect to find Kostak spelled : Košťak.

        This is just an FYI as the research moves from the US to SK....
        Ben

        --- On Tue, 8/5/08, johnqadam <johnqadam@...> wrote:

        From: johnqadam <johnqadam@...>
        Subject: [S-R] Re: Johannes Kostak
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 11:04 PM






        DON'T dwell on spelling. It all depends on whether the particular
        spelling convention is Hungarian, Slovak or Latin on a document. All
        may have been used to decribe the same person. Slovak convention may
        have spelled it as Kost'ak. Note the apostrophe after the t.

        I could give you a few more versions of John but it wouldn't be helful.

        When searching for genealogical information, knowing the birth village
        is paramount because records are organized by village not nationally,
        so it is not possible to search on a national basis. It is also
        necessary to know the religion. To locate church records for Slovakia,
        knowing the village/town name, go to the LDS web site:
        www.familysearch. org/Eng/Library/ FHLC/frameset_ fhlc.asp The church
        records cover baptisms (krsteni), marriages (sobeseni) and deaths
        (zomreli).
      • Ben Sorensen
        Correction: Košťák. my bad, sorry. ... From: Ben Sorensen Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Johannes Kostak To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 6, 2008
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          Correction: Košťák.

          my bad, sorry.

          --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:

          From: Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Johannes Kostak
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 3:20 PM






          I am about 90 percent sure, just from knowing Slovakia, (nuttin scientific.. .) that Kostak was pronounced Koshtak with a paletized t. The apostrophe referred to here is really a handwritten/ now printed makcen softening the consonant, used on tall letters, T gets an apostrophe in the lower case and the "v" in the upper case.  Therefore, the apostrophe may be found also like this in records :Ť.  Consequently, L never gets the "v" and only an apostrophe in printed literature, regardless of case.
           
          I would expect to find Kostak spelled : Košťak.

          This is just an FYI as the research moves from the US to SK....
          Ben

          --- On Tue, 8/5/08, johnqadam <johnqadam@rogers. com> wrote:

          From: johnqadam <johnqadam@rogers. com>
          Subject: [S-R] Re: Johannes Kostak
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 11:04 PM

          DON'T dwell on spelling. It all depends on whether the particular
          spelling convention is Hungarian, Slovak or Latin on a document. All
          may have been used to decribe the same person. Slovak convention may
          have spelled it as Kost'ak. Note the apostrophe after the t.

          I could give you a few more versions of John but it wouldn't be helful.

          When searching for genealogical information, knowing the birth village
          is paramount because records are organized by village not nationally,
          so it is not possible to search on a national basis. It is also
          necessary to know the religion. To locate church records for Slovakia,
          knowing the village/town name, go to the LDS web site:
          www.familysearch. org/Eng/Library/ FHLC/frameset_ fhlc.asp The church
          records cover baptisms (krsteni), marriages (sobeseni) and deaths
          (zomreli).
        • bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com
          Hello Paul, Janet has provided a tremendous amount of help and sorting of facts for you. I am going to ask you to take a DEEP BREATH, push the chair back and
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
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            Hello Paul,

            Janet has provided a tremendous amount of help and sorting of facts for
            you. I am going to ask you to take a DEEP BREATH, push the chair back and
            do a little retrospective analysis now. I don't have time to help you with
            your specific search, but I do want to caution you as you proceed.

            First, it seems that your primary research sources are the manifests and
            the tombstones. I would be very hesitant to be building family trees based
            on this information. You need secondary sources. Clearly the church
            records on film will help you do that more confidently.

            Secondly, of critical importance is to get your hands on any documents your
            ancestors themselves may have produced. Otherwise you will be dealing with
            conjecture, implication and dreadful assumptions, all of which must be
            avoided. The most available and important records will be found in your
            immigrant's immigration file. The USCIS has been undergoing significant
            changes in administration of these records since 9/11. It appears we can
            see light at the end of the tunnel, with a new system for requesting these
            records set to go live on August 13th. While it will take months to get
            your paper, it is of critical importance in assuring you are looking at the
            right records. In these files contains your immigrant's testament to their
            birth date, place, immigration date, ship, next of kin and so on. all of
            these facts are super-important clues.
            A shortcut to get to the USCIS announcement is here:
            http://tinyurl.com/6gp6gt
            Examples of what can be found in a immigration file include the Alien
            Registration form
            http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/ins_foia_petitions.htm#alien.
            The USCIS took most of this information offline, I spent some time
            reconstructing it on my site but have not completed the effort.
            http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/imm_names.htm#american_names, so the Alien
            Registration form image is missing at the moment.

            So get your request in to the USCIS and then go back to your other
            research. It will be well worth the wait.

            Janet is spot-on about details. Note every single one of them.

            An oft-overlooked strategy is to follow the records of friends, other
            family from the same village when you hit dead ends. Often you will find
            the record, but badly mangled in spelling, unfindable through computer
            serarch engines.

            Lastly, there is no such thing as "correct right" or "right name". Names
            morphed over the centuries, kingdoms, rulers, recordkeepers and manglers,
            both intentional and unintentional. Most of our ancestors were illiterate
            as late as 100 years ago. My grandmother signed a property deed in 1924
            with an "X". How would she know the correct spelling?!!!! Note all names
            and keep careful records. NEVER change names in the family tree to what
            you believe the "correct" name is. Use the name of record. If you don't,
            future researchers will be lost and befuddled with your work, and forced to
            discard it and start over.

            Best of Luck,

            Bill Tarkulich

            On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 04:32:26 -0700 (PDT), Paul Kostyak <kaytsok@...>
            wrote:
            > Hi Janet:
            >
            > First, let me clear that words cannot express my gratitude thus far.
            > Also, I realize you cannot continue to focus on my family to the extent
            > that I would like. So anytime you need to stop, I understand
            > completely.
            >
            > You are able to read these manifests remarkably. At this
            > point, one question for you is that on the 1904 manifiest for Maria
            > Miscovics, my grandmother, do you concur that the entry below Maria on
            the
            > same manifest is her mother, my great-grandmother, Maria Krajniak?
            >
            > As an aside, it is my belief that many, many of the Kostyak's here in the
            > Pennsylvania are are related. (I have just now come to that
            > suspicion.) I need to connect the dots from John/Johannes/Janos born
            > 1878, my grandfather, to the band/sibs of Kostyak's from the 1860's and
            > 1870's. Based on reasonable analysis of the ages, my best guess is
            > that Andres (born 1858) is his father, but there are a couple of other
            > possibilities. Also, there is a second Frank Kostyak from
            > Braddock, PA (he had 8 children. All these years, we didn't think we
            > were related to him, but now I suspect they are all kin to this same
            > band/sibs, so they are likely cousins) who died a few years ago (the
            > first Frank/Francis was my dad who also died 5 years ago). It is my
            > belief that Frank from Braddock (born 1888) was also a son of one of this
            > same band of Kostyaks (Andres/Janos/Pal/Michely/et al)
            >
            > Finally, I see a Janos born1843 immigrated in 1889 on the Breman that I
            > will take a wild guess and say he is the dad of this same band/sibs of
            > Kostyaks.
            >
            > Finally, finally, I see an number of Janos Kostyak's. (born: 1843 (the
            > one I just identified), 1862, (who I think is his son and one of this
            same
            > band/sibs), 1871 (not sure who he is), 1875 (not sure who he is), 1878
            (my
            > grandfather as discussed) and 1886 (probably a child of one of the
            > band/sibs discussed.
            >
            > Do you think I may be on the right track with all of this, or am I way
            > off? Apparently, my family history center is closed the month of
            > August. I'll be meeting with my newly hired genealogist, Elissa
            > Powell here in Pittsburgh, next week.
            >
            > Thanks, Janet. I am determined to get this all right no matter how long
            > it takes and how much it costs.
            >
            > Paul
            >
            > --- On Wed, 8/6/08, kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: kozlay <kozlay@...>
            > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:47 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear Paul,
            >
            > The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the husband
            > of
            > Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children to
            > her
            > husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.
            >
            > Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.
            >
            > Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John
            > Kostyak's
            > wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth about
            > 1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
            > 1904.
            >
            > As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not uncommon.
            > The date would have been provided by a family member who may not have
            been
            > certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
            > birth record in Slovakia.
            >
            > Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.
            >
            > The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family comes
            > from
            > the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good illustration of
            > how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
            > This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
            > Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of birth,
            > marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
            > glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a copy
            of
            > the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This will
            > help
            > you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the
            record.
            > It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
            > from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended to
            > marry
            > other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be
            significant
            > information relative to their social standing in the village and help you
            > learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
            > greater interest than just names and dates.
            >
            > Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
            > would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
            > (www.iabsi.com) . There is so much valuable information there, you can
            > spend
            > several days going through it all and you may find yourself going back to
            > it
            > time and time again.
            >
            > Janet
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
            > com] On
            > Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
            > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:27 AM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            > Cc: kaytsok@yahoo. com
            > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
            >
            > Hello Janet:
            >
            > Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
            > thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be able
            > to
            > grasp things better.
            >
            > I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
            > the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the next
            > day or 2.
            >
            > I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as
            > Casparus
            > and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
            > came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
            > born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some fashion.
            >
            > I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone reads
            > 1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
            > additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
            > comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
            > (1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
            > different.
            >
            > Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend boy
            > for
            > a flower shop, etc.?
            >
            > Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
            > to you. We'll deal with that later.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Paul
            >
            > --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon.
            > net>
            > net> wrote:
            >
            > From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net> net>
            > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com> yahoogroups.
            > com
            > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:34 PM
            >
            > Paul,
            >
            > Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
            > Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.
            >
            > Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak.
            Lassupatak
            > went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
            > Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are essentially
            > the
            > same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
            > MapQuest and see how close they are.
            >
            > Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
            > Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the
            > village
            > of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you would
            > likely need to order the films from both.
            >
            > Janet
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
            > com]
            > On
            > Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            > Subject: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
            >
            > Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
            > doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
            > the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
            > Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
            > but let's start with Kostak.
            >
            > My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
            > siblings which I have good information on.
            >
            > Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
            > tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.
            >
            > I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
            > license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
            > believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
            > Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
            > related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
            > his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
            > absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
            > puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
            > from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
            > Michael Miscovics)
            >
            > This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
            > Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
            > estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
            > don't know her maiden name.
            >
            > For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
            > Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
            > starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
            > Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
            > this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
            > marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
            > is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)
            >
            > So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
            > Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
            > Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.
            >
            > Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.
            >
            > My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.
            >
            > Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.
            >
            > Paul
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • kozlay
            Dear Paul, I do not think the entry below Maria s on the 1904 manifest could be her mother. The two were both 19 years old, and the second one appears to be
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Paul,



              I do not think the entry below Maria's on the 1904 manifest could be her
              mother. The two were both 19 years old, and the second one appears to be
              coming from a different place and having a different destination. Nor do I
              think the name looks like Krajniak. To me it looks more like Jarajnak. The
              transcriber read it as Tarajnak.



              Are you even certain that Maria's mother ever immigrated? There are lots of
              Maria Krajniaks in the Ellis Island records, though I don't see any that
              might qualify age-wise.



              You are probably right that all these Kostyaks are related in some way,
              though you won't know for certain until you look at the Slovak records.
              Since it is likely you will find numerous people in there with the same
              name, it will be important to distinguish carefully between them, working
              out various family groupings based on parentage, siblings, spouses, dates of
              birth, etc. Keep in mind that only birth and marriage records can be used
              to establish the dates of those occurrences. You cannot, for instance,
              depend on stated age at marriage to establish a firm date of birth.



              I warn you that this is not an easy task. You can only hope that the records
              contain all the information you need. For instance, if a marriage record
              does not include the names of the bride and groom's parents, it may be
              difficult to place that marriage correctly in your family tree. The earlier
              you go, the more likely it is that there will be missing information. Also,
              you need to be prepared to find some people with more than one spouse. Death
              rates were pretty high, even among those who were relatively young, and
              remarriages often took place shortly after the death of a spouse. (Someone
              had to care for the children or support the family.) I found one instance in
              my own research in which a wife died and later that same year the deceased
              wife's brother was witness to the remarriage.



              I applaud you for your determination to sort all of this out. It can be very
              exciting work.



              Let me know if there is anything else I can do.



              Janet









              _____

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
              Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:32 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: kaytsok@...
              Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak



              Hi Janet:

              First, let me clear that words cannot express my gratitude thus far. Also,
              I realize you cannot continue to focus on my family to the extent that I
              would like. So anytime you need to stop, I understand completely.

              You are able to read these manifests remarkably. At this point, one
              question for you is that on the 1904 manifiest for Maria Miscovics, my
              grandmother, do you concur that the entry below Maria on the same manifest
              is her mother, my great-grandmother, Maria Krajniak?

              As an aside, it is my belief that many, many of the Kostyak's here in the
              Pennsylvania are are related. (I have just now come to that suspicion.)
              I need to connect the dots from John/Johannes/Janos born 1878, my
              grandfather, to the band/sibs of Kostyak's from the 1860's and 1870's.
              Based on reasonable analysis of the ages, my best guess is that Andres (born
              1858) is his father, but there are a couple of other possibilities.
              Also, there is a second Frank Kostyak from Braddock, PA (he had 8 children.
              All these years, we didn't think we were related to him, but now I suspect
              they are all kin to this same band/sibs, so they are likely cousins) who
              died a few years ago (the first Frank/Francis was my dad who also died 5
              years ago). It is my belief that Frank from Braddock (born 1888) was also
              a son of one of this same band of Kostyaks (Andres/Janos/Pal/Michely/et al)

              Finally, I see a Janos born1843 immigrated in 1889 on the Breman that I will
              take a wild guess and say he is the dad of this same band/sibs of Kostyaks.

              Finally, finally, I see an number of Janos Kostyak's. (born: 1843 (the one
              I just identified), 1862, (who I think is his son and one of this same
              band/sibs), 1871 (not sure who he is), 1875 (not sure who he is), 1878 (my
              grandfather as discussed) and 1886 (probably a child of one of the band/sibs
              discussed.

              Do you think I may be on the right track with all of this, or am I way off?
              Apparently, my family history center is closed the month of August.
              I'll be meeting with my newly hired genealogist, Elissa Powell here in
              Pittsburgh, next week.

              Thanks, Janet. I am determined to get this all right no matter how long it
              takes and how much it costs.

              Paul

              --- On Wed, 8/6/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net>
              net> wrote:

              From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
              Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:47 AM

              Dear Paul,

              The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the husband of
              Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children to her
              husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.

              Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.

              Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John Kostyak's
              wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth about
              1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
              1904.

              As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not uncommon.
              The date would have been provided by a family member who may not have been
              certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
              birth record in Slovakia.

              Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.

              The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family comes from
              the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good illustration of
              how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
              This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
              Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of birth,
              marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
              glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a copy of
              the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This will help
              you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the record.
              It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
              from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended to marry
              other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be significant
              information relative to their social standing in the village and help you
              learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
              greater interest than just names and dates.

              Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
              would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
              (www.iabsi.com) . There is so much valuable information there, you can spend
              several days going through it all and you may find yourself going back to it
              time and time again.

              Janet

              _____

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
              On
              Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
              Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:27 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Cc: kaytsok@yahoo. com
              Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak

              Hello Janet:

              Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
              thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be able to
              grasp things better.

              I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
              the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the next
              day or 2.

              I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as Casparus
              and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
              came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
              born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some fashion.

              I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone reads
              1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
              additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
              comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
              (1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
              different.

              Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend boy for
              a flower shop, etc.?

              Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
              to you. We'll deal with that later.

              Thanks,
              Paul

              --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net>
              net> wrote:

              From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net> net>
              Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com> yahoogroups. com
              Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:34 PM

              Paul,

              Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
              Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.

              Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak. Lassupatak
              went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
              Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are essentially the
              same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
              MapQuest and see how close they are.

              Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
              Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the village
              of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you would
              likely need to order the films from both.

              Janet

              _____

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
              com]
              On
              Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
              Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: [S-R] Johannes Kostak

              Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
              doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
              the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
              Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
              but let's start with Kostak.

              My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
              siblings which I have good information on.

              Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
              tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.

              I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
              license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
              believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
              Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
              related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
              his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
              absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
              puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
              from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
              Michael Miscovics)

              This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
              Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
              estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
              don't know her maiden name.

              For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
              Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
              starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
              Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
              this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
              marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
              is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)

              So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
              Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
              Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.

              Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.

              My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.

              Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.

              Paul

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ben Sorensen
              Hello all,   In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in finding original locations, and very often I find the place of birth or
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello all,
                 
                In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this country there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is LDS) says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally am hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck? Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working though... when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.  Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)" and then are good
                at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
                 
                Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                Ben




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com
                Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the FHL. He is also taking the easy way out. I ve already made my opinion known about
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
                  FHL.
                  He is also taking the easy way out.
                  I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
                  but never as authority.

                  I have written extensively about birth sources.
                  http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/ancestral_village.htm

                  With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
                  detailed data until 1904.
                  Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
                  1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
                  arrival notwithstanding.)

                  with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
                  for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
                  information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
                  certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
                  war, etcetera.)

                  Bill Tarkulich


                  On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello all,
                  >
                  > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
                  > finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
                  > "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
                  country
                  > there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
                  LDS)
                  > says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
                  > can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
                  am
                  > hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
                  > Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
                  > geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
                  though...
                  > when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
                  > Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
                  > exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
                  > allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
                  > and then are good
                  > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
                  > villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
                  >
                  > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                  > Ben
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Ben Sorensen
                  ... From: bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- On Thu, 8/7/08, bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

                    From: bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...>
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 3:53 PM







                    Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
                    FHL.
                    He is also taking the easy way out.
                    I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
                    but never as authority.

                    I have written extensively about birth sources.
                    http://www.iabsi. com/gen/public/ ancestral_ village.htm

                    With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
                    detailed data until 1904.
                    Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
                    1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
                    arrival notwithstanding. )

                    with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
                    for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
                    information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
                    certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
                    war, etcetera.)

                    Bill Tarkulich

                    On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello all,
                    >
                    > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
                    > finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
                    > "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
                    country
                    > there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
                    LDS)
                    > says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
                    > can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
                    am
                    > hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
                    > Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
                    > geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
                    though...
                    > when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
                    > Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
                    > exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
                    > allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
                    > and then are good
                    > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
                    > villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
                    >
                    > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                    > Ben
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    >
                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                    > http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                    > SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >

















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ben Sorensen
                    I am so sorry that there is a blank post on its way.  My hand malfunctioned and clicked the send button on its own. I am very sorry. Ben ... From:
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I am so sorry that there is a blank post on its way.  My hand malfunctioned and clicked the send button on its own. I am very sorry.
                      Ben

                      --- On Thu, 8/7/08, bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

                      From: bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...>
                      Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 3:53 PM







                      Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
                      FHL.
                      He is also taking the easy way out.
                      I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
                      but never as authority.

                      I have written extensively about birth sources.
                      http://www.iabsi. com/gen/public/ ancestral_ village.htm

                      With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
                      detailed data until 1904.
                      Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
                      1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
                      arrival notwithstanding. )

                      with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
                      for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
                      information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
                      certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
                      war, etcetera.)

                      Bill Tarkulich

                      On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello all,
                      >
                      > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
                      > finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
                      > "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
                      country
                      > there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
                      LDS)
                      > says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
                      > can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
                      am
                      > hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
                      > Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
                      > geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
                      though...
                      > when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
                      > Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
                      > exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
                      > allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
                      > and then are good
                      > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
                      > villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
                      >
                      > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                      > Ben
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      > http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      > SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >

















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ssultonia
                      Ben, I had the opposite experience with Petitions for Citizenship. That was the first place that gave me a clue where my GF was born. He listed the village
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Ben,
                        I had the opposite experience with Petitions for Citizenship. That
                        was the first place that gave me a clue where my GF was born. He
                        listed the village where he was born as "Almas" and through some kind
                        folks on this forum I learned that it was now Jablonov. That was the
                        breakthrough I needed and from there the LDS films helped fill in most
                        of the blanks. He also listed his last place of residence before
                        leaving as "Lucksa", which is right around the corner from Jablonov.
                        So, I guess it shows how much the records vary and that what works for
                        one may not for another depending on the time and location when the
                        documents were originated.
                        Cheers,
                        Bill
                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello all,
                        >
                        > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting
                        in finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of
                        birth" or "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously,
                        in this country there wasn't much importance given to exact locations.
                        My prof (who is LDS) says that "one can use the IGI to find localities
                        of origination, and it can save you alot of tedius research in
                        American sources." I personally am hesitant about the IGI- what
                        sources have given you the best luck? Personally, I am finding Death
                        Records to be good- though one has to know geography for it to be of
                        assistance. I can see this not working though... when those present
                        don't know which city or village the person was from. Petitions for
                        citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an exact
                        location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
                        allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the
                        like)" and then are good
                        > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities,
                        towns, or villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat
                        demanding.
                        >
                        > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                        > Ben
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • kozlay
                        There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the place of
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                          Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                          place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                          not contain this information. See
                          http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.



                          Janet





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • PAULA BYRD
                          Janet, do you have an email address that works, this one says not found Paula ... From: kozlay To:
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Janet,

                            do you have an email address that works, this one says not found

                            Paula
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@...>
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:39 PM
                            Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources


                            There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                            Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                            place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                            not contain this information. See
                            http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

                            Janet

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • kozlay
                            Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from kozlay@comcast.net to kozlay@verizon.net. I don t know why you have had problems since I believe I
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from
                              kozlay@... to kozlay@.... I don't know why you have had
                              problems since I believe I am receiving emails at the new address. You can
                              also try me at kozlay@....



                              Janet





                              _____

                              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of PAULA BYRD
                              Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:51 PM
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources



                              Janet,

                              do you have an email address that works, this one says not found

                              Paula
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:39 PM
                              Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources

                              There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                              Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                              place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                              not contain this information. See
                              http://www.genealog <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>
                              ybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealog
                              <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>
                              ybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

                              Janet

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • ssultonia
                              Janet, Oops. You re right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break. Regards. Bill ...
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Janet,
                                Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                Regards.
                                Bill

                                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                is the
                                > Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                > place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                usually does
                                > not contain this information. See
                                > http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Janet
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • PAULA BYRD
                                Janet, I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Janet,

                                  I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html> and the other one you have listed , it brings up a site that says not found.

                                  Paula
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@...>
                                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:18 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources


                                  Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from
                                  kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...> to kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...>. I don't know why you have had
                                  problems since I believe I am receiving emails at the new address. You can
                                  also try me at kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...>.

                                  Janet

                                  _____

                                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                  Behalf Of PAULA BYRD
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:51 PM
                                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources

                                  Janet,

                                  do you have an email address that works, this one says not found

                                  Paula
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
                                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:39 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources

                                  There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                                  Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                  place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                                  not contain this information. See
                                  http://www.genealog<http://www.genealog/> <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>>
                                  ybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealog<http://www.genealog/>
                                  <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>>
                                  ybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

                                  Janet

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • MEMcDTT@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 8/7/2008 5:58:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, crazyquilter3@msn.com writes:
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In a message dated 8/7/2008 5:58:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                    crazyquilter3@... writes:

                                    <_http://www.genealoghttp://wwwhttp://www.geneahttp://w_
                                    (http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.) >>


                                    See the period after "html" that is what caused the problem

                                    Janet wrote,

                                    I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the
                                    www.genealogybranchI was meaning thI was
                                    mean<_http://www.genealoghttp://wwwhttp://www.geneahttp://_ (http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html) > and
                                    the other one you have listed , it brings up a site that says not found.



                                    **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                                    Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                                    (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Ben Sorensen
                                    I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin states that
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place of origin... :-)
                                       
                                      Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals," I am very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already warned, many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before 1900.
                                       
                                      EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would definitely recommend it to anyone.  I am thoroughly enjoying this, and this group...
                                      Ben

                                      --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@...> wrote:

                                      From: ssultonia <wasmore@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM






                                      Janet,
                                      Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                      confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                      Regards.
                                      Bill

                                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                      is the
                                      > Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                      > place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                      usually does
                                      > not contain this information. See
                                      > http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Janet
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >


















                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • kozlay
                                      Here, let s try it one more time: http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html Janet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 8, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Here, let's try it one more time:



                                        http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html



                                        Janet





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com
                                        I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on a second
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 8, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming
                                          circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on
                                          a second independent authoritative source to corroborate it. yea, I'm
                                          being a broken record.

                                          so if what you are doing is "theory", THE most important thing you can do
                                          is to cite and record sources for all data. That way, when you go back,
                                          people can develop their own opinions about whether the data element is
                                          credible.

                                          Regarding "Prussia". Don't be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath
                                          water. One inaccurate data element is not necessarily grounds to discount
                                          the whole document. It is never clear to me who the source of the
                                          information was for all or part of this information. Self? Clerk?
                                          Offspring? Friend? In some cases, it was simply confusion on the part of
                                          the immigrant. In most cases these folk were ignorant (not stupid),
                                          illiterate rural folks from small obscure region.

                                          Regards,
                                          Bill



                                          On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a
                                          > practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin
                                          > states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place
                                          > of origin... :-)
                                          >
                                          > Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals," I am
                                          > very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already
                                          warned,
                                          > many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before
                                          > 1900.
                                          >
                                          > EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it
                                          > has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would
                                          > definitely recommend it to anyone. I am thoroughly enjoying this, and
                                          > this group...
                                          > Ben
                                          >
                                          > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > From: ssultonia <wasmore@...>
                                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Janet,
                                          > Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                          > confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                          > Regards.
                                          > Bill
                                          >
                                          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                          > is the
                                          >> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                          >> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                          > usually does
                                          >> not contain this information. See
                                          >> http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> Janet
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Margo Smith
                                          Ben -- poverty of American records before 1900 ?  In my experience, there are many more American records available than SK records.  Once a US location
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 8, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Ben -- "poverty of American records before 1900"?  In my experience, there are many more American records available than SK records.  Once a US location became a county, there are often a lot of records.  Of course, there are too many "burned courthouse" cases.
                                             
                                            Margo

                                            --- On Fri, 8/8/08, bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

                                            From: bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 8:10 AM







                                            I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming
                                            circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on
                                            a second independent authoritative source to corroborate it. yea, I'm
                                            being a broken record.

                                            so if what you are doing is "theory", THE most important thing you can do
                                            is to cite and record sources for all data. That way, when you go back,
                                            people can develop their own opinions about whether the data element is
                                            credible.

                                            Regarding "Prussia". Don't be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath
                                            water. One inaccurate data element is not necessarily grounds to discount
                                            the whole document. It is never clear to me who the source of the
                                            information was for all or part of this information. Self? Clerk?
                                            Offspring? Friend? In some cases, it was simply confusion on the part of
                                            the immigrant. In most cases these folk were ignorant (not stupid),
                                            illiterate rural folks from small obscure region.

                                            Regards,
                                            Bill

                                            On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
                                            wrote:
                                            > I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a
                                            > practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin
                                            > states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place
                                            > of origin... :-)
                                            >
                                            > Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals, " I am
                                            > very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already
                                            warned,
                                            > many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before
                                            > 1900.
                                            >
                                            > EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it
                                            > has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would
                                            > definitely recommend it to anyone. I am thoroughly enjoying this, and
                                            > this group...
                                            > Ben
                                            >
                                            > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@att. net> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > From: ssultonia <wasmore@att. net>
                                            > Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Janet,
                                            > Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                            > confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                            > Regards.
                                            > Bill
                                            >
                                            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                            > is the
                                            >> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                            >> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                            > usually does
                                            >> not contain this information. See
                                            >> http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> Janet
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                            >
                                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                            > http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                            > SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

















                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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