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Re: Johannes Kostak

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  • johnqadam
    ... Janet has given you the particulars on the old church records. Being new to the game, you should revieww all the info on Bill Tarkulich s web site. BASIC
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008
      >>> Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me. <<<

      Janet has given you the particulars on the old church records. Being
      new to the game, you should revieww all the info on Bill Tarkulich's
      web site.

      BASIC RESEARCH HELP
      For basic research help, be sure to visit Bill Tarkulich's excellent
      site at http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/

      CURRENT MAP
      To locate places in Europe, especially if you are not sure of the
      proper spelling of the place name, the best reference is found at
      http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/loctown.htm

      ShtetlSeeker will take you there via Mapquest, Multimap or Google.

      1910 HUNGARIAN MAP
      The old Hungarian map can be found at:
      http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/szepes.jpg

      Look at the bottom of the map for your villages.

      SAVE the map on YOUR computer. OPEN the map in any graphics program.
      CUT and PRINT the relevant section of the map. Otherwise, you just
      get a corner. This map uses the Hungarian village names that you will
      likely find in church records.
    • kozlay
      Dear Paul, The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the husband of Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children to
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 6, 2008
        Dear Paul,



        The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the husband of
        Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children to her
        husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.



        Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.



        Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John Kostyak's
        wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth about
        1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
        1904.



        As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not uncommon.
        The date would have been provided by a family member who may not have been
        certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
        birth record in Slovakia.



        Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.



        The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family comes from
        the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good illustration of
        how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
        This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
        Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of birth,
        marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
        glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a copy of
        the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This will help
        you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the record.
        It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
        from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended to marry
        other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be significant
        information relative to their social standing in the village and help you
        learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
        greater interest than just names and dates.



        Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
        would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
        (www.iabsi.com). There is so much valuable information there, you can spend
        several days going through it all and you may find yourself going back to it
        time and time again.



        Janet



        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
        Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:27 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: kaytsok@...
        Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak



        Hello Janet:

        Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
        thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be able to
        grasp things better.

        I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
        the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the next
        day or 2.

        I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as Casparus
        and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
        came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
        born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some fashion.


        I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone reads
        1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
        additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
        comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
        (1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
        different.

        Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend boy for
        a flower shop, etc.?

        Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
        to you. We'll deal with that later.

        Thanks,
        Paul

        --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net>
        net> wrote:

        From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
        Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:34 PM

        Paul,

        Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
        Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.

        Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak. Lassupatak
        went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
        Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are essentially the
        same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
        MapQuest and see how close they are.

        Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
        Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the village
        of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you would
        likely need to order the films from both.

        Janet

        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
        On
        Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
        Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: [S-R] Johannes Kostak

        Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
        doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
        the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
        Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
        but let's start with Kostak.

        My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
        siblings which I have good information on.

        Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
        tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.

        I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
        license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
        believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
        Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
        related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
        his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
        absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
        puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
        from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
        Michael Miscovics)

        This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
        Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
        estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
        don't know her maiden name.

        For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
        Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
        starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
        Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
        this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
        marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
        is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)

        So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
        Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
        Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.

        Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.

        My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.

        Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.

        Paul

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • betseyannk
        Paul, It looks like your grandparents naturalization records may be on www.footnote.com. Just search on Kostyak. Good Luck. Betsey Ann ... reflected on all
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 6, 2008
          Paul,

          It looks like your grandparents naturalization records may be on
          www.footnote.com. Just search on "Kostyak."

          Good Luck.
          Betsey Ann


          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Paul Kostyak <kaytsok@...> wrote:
          >
          > You are the best. After I have looked at Bill's website and
          reflected on all of this, I will be back to you. I am overwhelmed
          (in a good way!)
          >
          > Paul
          >
          > --- On Wed, 8/6/08, kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: kozlay <kozlay@...>
          > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:47 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Paul,
          >
          > The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the
          husband of
          > Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children
          to her
          > husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.
          >
          > Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.
          >
          > Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John
          Kostyak's
          > wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth
          about
          > 1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
          > 1904.
          >
          > As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not
          uncommon.
          > The date would have been provided by a family member who may not
          have been
          > certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
          > birth record in Slovakia.
          >
          > Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.
          >
          > The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family
          comes from
          > the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good
          illustration of
          > how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
          > This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
          > Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of
          birth,
          > marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
          > glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a
          copy of
          > the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This
          will help
          > you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the
          record.
          > It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
          > from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended
          to marry
          > other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be
          significant
          > information relative to their social standing in the village and
          help you
          > learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
          > greater interest than just names and dates.
          >
          > Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
          > would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
          > (www.iabsi.com) . There is so much valuable information there, you
          can spend
          > several days going through it all and you may find yourself going
          back to it
          > time and time again.
          >
          > Janet
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@
          yahoogroups. com] On
          > Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
          > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:27 AM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          > Cc: kaytsok@yahoo. com
          > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
          >
          > Hello Janet:
          >
          > Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
          > thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be
          able to
          > grasp things better.
          >
          > I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
          > the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the
          next
          > day or 2.
          >
          > I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as
          Casparus
          > and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
          > came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
          > born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some
          fashion.
          >
          > I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone
          reads
          > 1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
          > additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
          > comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
          > (1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
          > different.
          >
          > Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend
          boy for
          > a flower shop, etc.?
          >
          > Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
          > to you. We'll deal with that later.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Paul
          >
          > --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%
          40verizon. net>
          > net> wrote:
          >
          > From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net> net>
          > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com>
          yahoogroups. com
          > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:34 PM
          >
          > Paul,
          >
          > Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
          > Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.
          >
          > Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak.
          Lassupatak
          > went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
          > Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are
          essentially the
          > same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
          > MapQuest and see how close they are.
          >
          > Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
          > Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the
          village
          > of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you
          would
          > likely need to order the films from both.
          >
          > Janet
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@
          yahoogroups. com]
          > On
          > Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          > Subject: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
          >
          > Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
          > doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
          > the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
          > Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
          > but let's start with Kostak.
          >
          > My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
          > siblings which I have good information on.
          >
          > Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
          > tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.
          >
          > I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
          > license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
          > believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
          > Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
          > related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
          > his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
          > absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
          > puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
          > from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
          > Michael Miscovics)
          >
          > This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
          > Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
          > estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
          > don't know her maiden name.
          >
          > For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
          > Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
          > starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
          > Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
          > this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
          > marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
          > is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)
          >
          > So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
          > Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
          > Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.
          >
          > Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.
          >
          > My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.
          >
          > Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.
          >
          > Paul
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Ben Sorensen
          I am about 90 percent sure, just from knowing Slovakia, (nuttin scientific...) that Kostak was pronounced Koshtak with a paletized t. The apostrophe referred
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 6, 2008
            I am about 90 percent sure, just from knowing Slovakia, (nuttin scientific...) that Kostak was pronounced Koshtak with a paletized t. The apostrophe referred to here is really a handwritten/now printed makcen softening the consonant, used on tall letters, T gets an apostrophe in the lower case and the "v" in the upper case.  Therefore, the apostrophe may be found also like this in records :Ť.  Consequently, L never gets the "v" and only an apostrophe in printed literature, regardless of case.
             
            I would expect to find Kostak spelled : Košťak.

            This is just an FYI as the research moves from the US to SK....
            Ben

            --- On Tue, 8/5/08, johnqadam <johnqadam@...> wrote:

            From: johnqadam <johnqadam@...>
            Subject: [S-R] Re: Johannes Kostak
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 11:04 PM






            DON'T dwell on spelling. It all depends on whether the particular
            spelling convention is Hungarian, Slovak or Latin on a document. All
            may have been used to decribe the same person. Slovak convention may
            have spelled it as Kost'ak. Note the apostrophe after the t.

            I could give you a few more versions of John but it wouldn't be helful.

            When searching for genealogical information, knowing the birth village
            is paramount because records are organized by village not nationally,
            so it is not possible to search on a national basis. It is also
            necessary to know the religion. To locate church records for Slovakia,
            knowing the village/town name, go to the LDS web site:
            www.familysearch. org/Eng/Library/ FHLC/frameset_ fhlc.asp The church
            records cover baptisms (krsteni), marriages (sobeseni) and deaths
            (zomreli).
          • Ben Sorensen
            Correction: Košťák. my bad, sorry. ... From: Ben Sorensen Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Johannes Kostak To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 6, 2008
              Correction: Košťák.

              my bad, sorry.

              --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:

              From: Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Johannes Kostak
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 3:20 PM






              I am about 90 percent sure, just from knowing Slovakia, (nuttin scientific.. .) that Kostak was pronounced Koshtak with a paletized t. The apostrophe referred to here is really a handwritten/ now printed makcen softening the consonant, used on tall letters, T gets an apostrophe in the lower case and the "v" in the upper case.  Therefore, the apostrophe may be found also like this in records :Ť.  Consequently, L never gets the "v" and only an apostrophe in printed literature, regardless of case.
               
              I would expect to find Kostak spelled : Košťak.

              This is just an FYI as the research moves from the US to SK....
              Ben

              --- On Tue, 8/5/08, johnqadam <johnqadam@rogers. com> wrote:

              From: johnqadam <johnqadam@rogers. com>
              Subject: [S-R] Re: Johannes Kostak
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 11:04 PM

              DON'T dwell on spelling. It all depends on whether the particular
              spelling convention is Hungarian, Slovak or Latin on a document. All
              may have been used to decribe the same person. Slovak convention may
              have spelled it as Kost'ak. Note the apostrophe after the t.

              I could give you a few more versions of John but it wouldn't be helful.

              When searching for genealogical information, knowing the birth village
              is paramount because records are organized by village not nationally,
              so it is not possible to search on a national basis. It is also
              necessary to know the religion. To locate church records for Slovakia,
              knowing the village/town name, go to the LDS web site:
              www.familysearch. org/Eng/Library/ FHLC/frameset_ fhlc.asp The church
              records cover baptisms (krsteni), marriages (sobeseni) and deaths
              (zomreli).
            • bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com
              Hello Paul, Janet has provided a tremendous amount of help and sorting of facts for you. I am going to ask you to take a DEEP BREATH, push the chair back and
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                Hello Paul,

                Janet has provided a tremendous amount of help and sorting of facts for
                you. I am going to ask you to take a DEEP BREATH, push the chair back and
                do a little retrospective analysis now. I don't have time to help you with
                your specific search, but I do want to caution you as you proceed.

                First, it seems that your primary research sources are the manifests and
                the tombstones. I would be very hesitant to be building family trees based
                on this information. You need secondary sources. Clearly the church
                records on film will help you do that more confidently.

                Secondly, of critical importance is to get your hands on any documents your
                ancestors themselves may have produced. Otherwise you will be dealing with
                conjecture, implication and dreadful assumptions, all of which must be
                avoided. The most available and important records will be found in your
                immigrant's immigration file. The USCIS has been undergoing significant
                changes in administration of these records since 9/11. It appears we can
                see light at the end of the tunnel, with a new system for requesting these
                records set to go live on August 13th. While it will take months to get
                your paper, it is of critical importance in assuring you are looking at the
                right records. In these files contains your immigrant's testament to their
                birth date, place, immigration date, ship, next of kin and so on. all of
                these facts are super-important clues.
                A shortcut to get to the USCIS announcement is here:
                http://tinyurl.com/6gp6gt
                Examples of what can be found in a immigration file include the Alien
                Registration form
                http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/ins_foia_petitions.htm#alien.
                The USCIS took most of this information offline, I spent some time
                reconstructing it on my site but have not completed the effort.
                http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/imm_names.htm#american_names, so the Alien
                Registration form image is missing at the moment.

                So get your request in to the USCIS and then go back to your other
                research. It will be well worth the wait.

                Janet is spot-on about details. Note every single one of them.

                An oft-overlooked strategy is to follow the records of friends, other
                family from the same village when you hit dead ends. Often you will find
                the record, but badly mangled in spelling, unfindable through computer
                serarch engines.

                Lastly, there is no such thing as "correct right" or "right name". Names
                morphed over the centuries, kingdoms, rulers, recordkeepers and manglers,
                both intentional and unintentional. Most of our ancestors were illiterate
                as late as 100 years ago. My grandmother signed a property deed in 1924
                with an "X". How would she know the correct spelling?!!!! Note all names
                and keep careful records. NEVER change names in the family tree to what
                you believe the "correct" name is. Use the name of record. If you don't,
                future researchers will be lost and befuddled with your work, and forced to
                discard it and start over.

                Best of Luck,

                Bill Tarkulich

                On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 04:32:26 -0700 (PDT), Paul Kostyak <kaytsok@...>
                wrote:
                > Hi Janet:
                >
                > First, let me clear that words cannot express my gratitude thus far.
                > Also, I realize you cannot continue to focus on my family to the extent
                > that I would like. So anytime you need to stop, I understand
                > completely.
                >
                > You are able to read these manifests remarkably. At this
                > point, one question for you is that on the 1904 manifiest for Maria
                > Miscovics, my grandmother, do you concur that the entry below Maria on
                the
                > same manifest is her mother, my great-grandmother, Maria Krajniak?
                >
                > As an aside, it is my belief that many, many of the Kostyak's here in the
                > Pennsylvania are are related. (I have just now come to that
                > suspicion.) I need to connect the dots from John/Johannes/Janos born
                > 1878, my grandfather, to the band/sibs of Kostyak's from the 1860's and
                > 1870's. Based on reasonable analysis of the ages, my best guess is
                > that Andres (born 1858) is his father, but there are a couple of other
                > possibilities. Also, there is a second Frank Kostyak from
                > Braddock, PA (he had 8 children. All these years, we didn't think we
                > were related to him, but now I suspect they are all kin to this same
                > band/sibs, so they are likely cousins) who died a few years ago (the
                > first Frank/Francis was my dad who also died 5 years ago). It is my
                > belief that Frank from Braddock (born 1888) was also a son of one of this
                > same band of Kostyaks (Andres/Janos/Pal/Michely/et al)
                >
                > Finally, I see a Janos born1843 immigrated in 1889 on the Breman that I
                > will take a wild guess and say he is the dad of this same band/sibs of
                > Kostyaks.
                >
                > Finally, finally, I see an number of Janos Kostyak's. (born: 1843 (the
                > one I just identified), 1862, (who I think is his son and one of this
                same
                > band/sibs), 1871 (not sure who he is), 1875 (not sure who he is), 1878
                (my
                > grandfather as discussed) and 1886 (probably a child of one of the
                > band/sibs discussed.
                >
                > Do you think I may be on the right track with all of this, or am I way
                > off? Apparently, my family history center is closed the month of
                > August. I'll be meeting with my newly hired genealogist, Elissa
                > Powell here in Pittsburgh, next week.
                >
                > Thanks, Janet. I am determined to get this all right no matter how long
                > it takes and how much it costs.
                >
                > Paul
                >
                > --- On Wed, 8/6/08, kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: kozlay <kozlay@...>
                > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:47 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear Paul,
                >
                > The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the husband
                > of
                > Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children to
                > her
                > husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.
                >
                > Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.
                >
                > Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John
                > Kostyak's
                > wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth about
                > 1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
                > 1904.
                >
                > As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not uncommon.
                > The date would have been provided by a family member who may not have
                been
                > certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
                > birth record in Slovakia.
                >
                > Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.
                >
                > The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family comes
                > from
                > the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good illustration of
                > how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
                > This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
                > Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of birth,
                > marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
                > glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a copy
                of
                > the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This will
                > help
                > you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the
                record.
                > It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
                > from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended to
                > marry
                > other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be
                significant
                > information relative to their social standing in the village and help you
                > learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
                > greater interest than just names and dates.
                >
                > Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
                > would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
                > (www.iabsi.com) . There is so much valuable information there, you can
                > spend
                > several days going through it all and you may find yourself going back to
                > it
                > time and time again.
                >
                > Janet
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                > com] On
                > Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
                > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:27 AM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                > Cc: kaytsok@yahoo. com
                > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
                >
                > Hello Janet:
                >
                > Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
                > thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be able
                > to
                > grasp things better.
                >
                > I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
                > the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the next
                > day or 2.
                >
                > I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as
                > Casparus
                > and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
                > came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
                > born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some fashion.
                >
                > I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone reads
                > 1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
                > additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
                > comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
                > (1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
                > different.
                >
                > Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend boy
                > for
                > a flower shop, etc.?
                >
                > Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
                > to you. We'll deal with that later.
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Paul
                >
                > --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon.
                > net>
                > net> wrote:
                >
                > From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net> net>
                > Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com> yahoogroups.
                > com
                > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:34 PM
                >
                > Paul,
                >
                > Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
                > Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.
                >
                > Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak.
                Lassupatak
                > went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
                > Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are essentially
                > the
                > same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
                > MapQuest and see how close they are.
                >
                > Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
                > Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the
                > village
                > of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you would
                > likely need to order the films from both.
                >
                > Janet
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                > com]
                > On
                > Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
                > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                > Subject: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
                >
                > Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
                > doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
                > the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
                > Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
                > but let's start with Kostak.
                >
                > My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
                > siblings which I have good information on.
                >
                > Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
                > tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.
                >
                > I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
                > license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
                > believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
                > Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
                > related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
                > his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
                > absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
                > puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
                > from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
                > Michael Miscovics)
                >
                > This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
                > Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
                > estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
                > don't know her maiden name.
                >
                > For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
                > Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
                > starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
                > Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
                > this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
                > marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
                > is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)
                >
                > So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
                > Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
                > Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.
                >
                > Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.
                >
                > My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.
                >
                > Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.
                >
                > Paul
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • kozlay
                Dear Paul, I do not think the entry below Maria s on the 1904 manifest could be her mother. The two were both 19 years old, and the second one appears to be
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                  Dear Paul,



                  I do not think the entry below Maria's on the 1904 manifest could be her
                  mother. The two were both 19 years old, and the second one appears to be
                  coming from a different place and having a different destination. Nor do I
                  think the name looks like Krajniak. To me it looks more like Jarajnak. The
                  transcriber read it as Tarajnak.



                  Are you even certain that Maria's mother ever immigrated? There are lots of
                  Maria Krajniaks in the Ellis Island records, though I don't see any that
                  might qualify age-wise.



                  You are probably right that all these Kostyaks are related in some way,
                  though you won't know for certain until you look at the Slovak records.
                  Since it is likely you will find numerous people in there with the same
                  name, it will be important to distinguish carefully between them, working
                  out various family groupings based on parentage, siblings, spouses, dates of
                  birth, etc. Keep in mind that only birth and marriage records can be used
                  to establish the dates of those occurrences. You cannot, for instance,
                  depend on stated age at marriage to establish a firm date of birth.



                  I warn you that this is not an easy task. You can only hope that the records
                  contain all the information you need. For instance, if a marriage record
                  does not include the names of the bride and groom's parents, it may be
                  difficult to place that marriage correctly in your family tree. The earlier
                  you go, the more likely it is that there will be missing information. Also,
                  you need to be prepared to find some people with more than one spouse. Death
                  rates were pretty high, even among those who were relatively young, and
                  remarriages often took place shortly after the death of a spouse. (Someone
                  had to care for the children or support the family.) I found one instance in
                  my own research in which a wife died and later that same year the deceased
                  wife's brother was witness to the remarriage.



                  I applaud you for your determination to sort all of this out. It can be very
                  exciting work.



                  Let me know if there is anything else I can do.



                  Janet









                  _____

                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
                  Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:32 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: kaytsok@...
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak



                  Hi Janet:

                  First, let me clear that words cannot express my gratitude thus far. Also,
                  I realize you cannot continue to focus on my family to the extent that I
                  would like. So anytime you need to stop, I understand completely.

                  You are able to read these manifests remarkably. At this point, one
                  question for you is that on the 1904 manifiest for Maria Miscovics, my
                  grandmother, do you concur that the entry below Maria on the same manifest
                  is her mother, my great-grandmother, Maria Krajniak?

                  As an aside, it is my belief that many, many of the Kostyak's here in the
                  Pennsylvania are are related. (I have just now come to that suspicion.)
                  I need to connect the dots from John/Johannes/Janos born 1878, my
                  grandfather, to the band/sibs of Kostyak's from the 1860's and 1870's.
                  Based on reasonable analysis of the ages, my best guess is that Andres (born
                  1858) is his father, but there are a couple of other possibilities.
                  Also, there is a second Frank Kostyak from Braddock, PA (he had 8 children.
                  All these years, we didn't think we were related to him, but now I suspect
                  they are all kin to this same band/sibs, so they are likely cousins) who
                  died a few years ago (the first Frank/Francis was my dad who also died 5
                  years ago). It is my belief that Frank from Braddock (born 1888) was also
                  a son of one of this same band of Kostyaks (Andres/Janos/Pal/Michely/et al)

                  Finally, I see a Janos born1843 immigrated in 1889 on the Breman that I will
                  take a wild guess and say he is the dad of this same band/sibs of Kostyaks.

                  Finally, finally, I see an number of Janos Kostyak's. (born: 1843 (the one
                  I just identified), 1862, (who I think is his son and one of this same
                  band/sibs), 1871 (not sure who he is), 1875 (not sure who he is), 1878 (my
                  grandfather as discussed) and 1886 (probably a child of one of the band/sibs
                  discussed.

                  Do you think I may be on the right track with all of this, or am I way off?
                  Apparently, my family history center is closed the month of August.
                  I'll be meeting with my newly hired genealogist, Elissa Powell here in
                  Pittsburgh, next week.

                  Thanks, Janet. I am determined to get this all right no matter how long it
                  takes and how much it costs.

                  Paul

                  --- On Wed, 8/6/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net>
                  net> wrote:

                  From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:47 AM

                  Dear Paul,

                  The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the husband of
                  Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children to her
                  husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.

                  Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.

                  Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John Kostyak's
                  wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth about
                  1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
                  1904.

                  As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not uncommon.
                  The date would have been provided by a family member who may not have been
                  certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
                  birth record in Slovakia.

                  Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.

                  The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family comes from
                  the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good illustration of
                  how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
                  This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
                  Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of birth,
                  marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
                  glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a copy of
                  the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This will help
                  you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the record.
                  It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
                  from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended to marry
                  other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be significant
                  information relative to their social standing in the village and help you
                  learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
                  greater interest than just names and dates.

                  Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
                  would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
                  (www.iabsi.com) . There is so much valuable information there, you can spend
                  several days going through it all and you may find yourself going back to it
                  time and time again.

                  Janet

                  _____

                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
                  On
                  Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:27 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Cc: kaytsok@yahoo. com
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak

                  Hello Janet:

                  Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
                  thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be able to
                  grasp things better.

                  I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
                  the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the next
                  day or 2.

                  I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as Casparus
                  and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
                  came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
                  born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some fashion.

                  I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone reads
                  1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
                  additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
                  comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
                  (1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
                  different.

                  Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend boy for
                  a flower shop, etc.?

                  Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
                  to you. We'll deal with that later.

                  Thanks,
                  Paul

                  --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net>
                  net> wrote:

                  From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net> net>
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com> yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:34 PM

                  Paul,

                  Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
                  Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.

                  Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak. Lassupatak
                  went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
                  Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are essentially the
                  same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
                  MapQuest and see how close they are.

                  Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
                  Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the village
                  of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you would
                  likely need to order the films from both.

                  Janet

                  _____

                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                  com]
                  On
                  Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: [S-R] Johannes Kostak

                  Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
                  doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
                  the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
                  Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
                  but let's start with Kostak.

                  My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
                  siblings which I have good information on.

                  Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
                  tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.

                  I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
                  license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
                  believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
                  Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
                  related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
                  his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
                  absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
                  puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
                  from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
                  Michael Miscovics)

                  This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
                  Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
                  estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
                  don't know her maiden name.

                  For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
                  Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
                  starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
                  Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
                  this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
                  marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
                  is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)

                  So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
                  Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
                  Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.

                  Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.

                  My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.

                  Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.

                  Paul

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ben Sorensen
                  Hello all,   In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in finding original locations, and very often I find the place of birth or
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                    Hello all,
                     
                    In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this country there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is LDS) says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally am hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck? Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working though... when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.  Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)" and then are good
                    at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
                     
                    Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                    Ben




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com
                    Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the FHL. He is also taking the easy way out. I ve already made my opinion known about
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                      Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
                      FHL.
                      He is also taking the easy way out.
                      I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
                      but never as authority.

                      I have written extensively about birth sources.
                      http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/ancestral_village.htm

                      With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
                      detailed data until 1904.
                      Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
                      1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
                      arrival notwithstanding.)

                      with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
                      for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
                      information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
                      certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
                      war, etcetera.)

                      Bill Tarkulich


                      On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello all,
                      >
                      > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
                      > finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
                      > "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
                      country
                      > there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
                      LDS)
                      > says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
                      > can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
                      am
                      > hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
                      > Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
                      > geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
                      though...
                      > when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
                      > Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
                      > exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
                      > allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
                      > and then are good
                      > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
                      > villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
                      >
                      > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                      > Ben
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Ben Sorensen
                      ... From: bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday,
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                        --- On Thu, 8/7/08, bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

                        From: bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...>
                        Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 3:53 PM







                        Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
                        FHL.
                        He is also taking the easy way out.
                        I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
                        but never as authority.

                        I have written extensively about birth sources.
                        http://www.iabsi. com/gen/public/ ancestral_ village.htm

                        With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
                        detailed data until 1904.
                        Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
                        1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
                        arrival notwithstanding. )

                        with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
                        for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
                        information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
                        certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
                        war, etcetera.)

                        Bill Tarkulich

                        On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello all,
                        >
                        > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
                        > finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
                        > "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
                        country
                        > there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
                        LDS)
                        > says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
                        > can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
                        am
                        > hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
                        > Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
                        > geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
                        though...
                        > when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
                        > Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
                        > exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
                        > allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
                        > and then are good
                        > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
                        > villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
                        >
                        > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                        > Ben
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                        >
                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        > http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        > SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >

















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ben Sorensen
                        I am so sorry that there is a blank post on its way.  My hand malfunctioned and clicked the send button on its own. I am very sorry. Ben ... From:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                          I am so sorry that there is a blank post on its way.  My hand malfunctioned and clicked the send button on its own. I am very sorry.
                          Ben

                          --- On Thu, 8/7/08, bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

                          From: bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...>
                          Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 3:53 PM







                          Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
                          FHL.
                          He is also taking the easy way out.
                          I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
                          but never as authority.

                          I have written extensively about birth sources.
                          http://www.iabsi. com/gen/public/ ancestral_ village.htm

                          With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
                          detailed data until 1904.
                          Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
                          1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
                          arrival notwithstanding. )

                          with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
                          for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
                          information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
                          certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
                          war, etcetera.)

                          Bill Tarkulich

                          On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello all,
                          >
                          > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
                          > finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
                          > "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
                          country
                          > there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
                          LDS)
                          > says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
                          > can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
                          am
                          > hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
                          > Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
                          > geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
                          though...
                          > when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
                          > Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
                          > exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
                          > allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
                          > and then are good
                          > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
                          > villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
                          >
                          > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                          > Ben
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                          > http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                          > SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >

















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • ssultonia
                          Ben, I had the opposite experience with Petitions for Citizenship. That was the first place that gave me a clue where my GF was born. He listed the village
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                            Ben,
                            I had the opposite experience with Petitions for Citizenship. That
                            was the first place that gave me a clue where my GF was born. He
                            listed the village where he was born as "Almas" and through some kind
                            folks on this forum I learned that it was now Jablonov. That was the
                            breakthrough I needed and from there the LDS films helped fill in most
                            of the blanks. He also listed his last place of residence before
                            leaving as "Lucksa", which is right around the corner from Jablonov.
                            So, I guess it shows how much the records vary and that what works for
                            one may not for another depending on the time and location when the
                            documents were originated.
                            Cheers,
                            Bill
                            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello all,
                            >
                            > In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting
                            in finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of
                            birth" or "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously,
                            in this country there wasn't much importance given to exact locations.
                            My prof (who is LDS) says that "one can use the IGI to find localities
                            of origination, and it can save you alot of tedius research in
                            American sources." I personally am hesitant about the IGI- what
                            sources have given you the best luck? Personally, I am finding Death
                            Records to be good- though one has to know geography for it to be of
                            assistance. I can see this not working though... when those present
                            don't know which city or village the person was from. Petitions for
                            citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an exact
                            location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
                            allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the
                            like)" and then are good
                            > at determining who was King and which province, but no cities,
                            towns, or villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat
                            demanding.
                            >
                            > Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
                            > Ben
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • kozlay
                            There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the place of
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                              There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                              Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                              place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                              not contain this information. See
                              http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.



                              Janet





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • PAULA BYRD
                              Janet, do you have an email address that works, this one says not found Paula ... From: kozlay To:
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                                Janet,

                                do you have an email address that works, this one says not found

                                Paula
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@...>
                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:39 PM
                                Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources


                                There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                                Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                                not contain this information. See
                                http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

                                Janet

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • kozlay
                                Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from kozlay@comcast.net to kozlay@verizon.net. I don t know why you have had problems since I believe I
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                                  Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from
                                  kozlay@... to kozlay@.... I don't know why you have had
                                  problems since I believe I am receiving emails at the new address. You can
                                  also try me at kozlay@....



                                  Janet





                                  _____

                                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of PAULA BYRD
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:51 PM
                                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources



                                  Janet,

                                  do you have an email address that works, this one says not found

                                  Paula
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
                                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:39 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources

                                  There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                                  Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                  place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                                  not contain this information. See
                                  http://www.genealog <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>
                                  ybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealog
                                  <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>
                                  ybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

                                  Janet

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • ssultonia
                                  Janet, Oops. You re right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break. Regards. Bill ...
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                                    Janet,
                                    Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                    confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                    Regards.
                                    Bill

                                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                    is the
                                    > Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                    > place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                    usually does
                                    > not contain this information. See
                                    > http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Janet
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • PAULA BYRD
                                    Janet, I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                                      Janet,

                                      I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html> and the other one you have listed , it brings up a site that says not found.

                                      Paula
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@...>
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:18 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources


                                      Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from
                                      kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...> to kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...>. I don't know why you have had
                                      problems since I believe I am receiving emails at the new address. You can
                                      also try me at kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...>.

                                      Janet

                                      _____

                                      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                      Behalf Of PAULA BYRD
                                      Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:51 PM
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources

                                      Janet,

                                      do you have an email address that works, this one says not found

                                      Paula
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: kozlay<mailto:kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay%40verizon.net> net>
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com<mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:39 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [S-R] primary American sources

                                      There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
                                      Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                      place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
                                      not contain this information. See
                                      http://www.genealog<http://www.genealog/> <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>>
                                      ybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealog<http://www.genealog/>
                                      <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>>
                                      ybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

                                      Janet

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • MEMcDTT@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 8/7/2008 5:58:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, crazyquilter3@msn.com writes:
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                                        In a message dated 8/7/2008 5:58:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                        crazyquilter3@... writes:

                                        <_http://www.genealoghttp://wwwhttp://www.geneahttp://w_
                                        (http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.) >>


                                        See the period after "html" that is what caused the problem

                                        Janet wrote,

                                        I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the
                                        www.genealogybranchI was meaning thI was
                                        mean<_http://www.genealoghttp://wwwhttp://www.geneahttp://_ (http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html) > and
                                        the other one you have listed , it brings up a site that says not found.



                                        **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                                        Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                                        (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ben Sorensen
                                        I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin states that
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 7, 2008
                                          I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place of origin... :-)
                                           
                                          Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals," I am very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already warned, many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before 1900.
                                           
                                          EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would definitely recommend it to anyone.  I am thoroughly enjoying this, and this group...
                                          Ben

                                          --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@...> wrote:

                                          From: ssultonia <wasmore@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM






                                          Janet,
                                          Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                          confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                          Regards.
                                          Bill

                                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                          is the
                                          > Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                          > place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                          usually does
                                          > not contain this information. See
                                          > http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Janet
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >


















                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • kozlay
                                          Here, let s try it one more time: http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html Janet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 8, 2008
                                            Here, let's try it one more time:



                                            http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html



                                            Janet





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com
                                            I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on a second
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 8, 2008
                                              I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming
                                              circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on
                                              a second independent authoritative source to corroborate it. yea, I'm
                                              being a broken record.

                                              so if what you are doing is "theory", THE most important thing you can do
                                              is to cite and record sources for all data. That way, when you go back,
                                              people can develop their own opinions about whether the data element is
                                              credible.

                                              Regarding "Prussia". Don't be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath
                                              water. One inaccurate data element is not necessarily grounds to discount
                                              the whole document. It is never clear to me who the source of the
                                              information was for all or part of this information. Self? Clerk?
                                              Offspring? Friend? In some cases, it was simply confusion on the part of
                                              the immigrant. In most cases these folk were ignorant (not stupid),
                                              illiterate rural folks from small obscure region.

                                              Regards,
                                              Bill



                                              On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a
                                              > practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin
                                              > states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place
                                              > of origin... :-)
                                              >
                                              > Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals," I am
                                              > very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already
                                              warned,
                                              > many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before
                                              > 1900.
                                              >
                                              > EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it
                                              > has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would
                                              > definitely recommend it to anyone. I am thoroughly enjoying this, and
                                              > this group...
                                              > Ben
                                              >
                                              > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > From: ssultonia <wasmore@...>
                                              > Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Janet,
                                              > Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                              > confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                              > Regards.
                                              > Bill
                                              >
                                              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                              > is the
                                              >> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                              >> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                              > usually does
                                              >> not contain this information. See
                                              >> http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> Janet
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
                                              >
                                              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
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                                            • Margo Smith
                                              Ben -- poverty of American records before 1900 ?  In my experience, there are many more American records available than SK records.  Once a US location
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 8, 2008
                                                Ben -- "poverty of American records before 1900"?  In my experience, there are many more American records available than SK records.  Once a US location became a county, there are often a lot of records.  Of course, there are too many "burned courthouse" cases.
                                                 
                                                Margo

                                                --- On Fri, 8/8/08, bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

                                                From: bill.tarkulich@... <bill.tarkulich@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 8:10 AM







                                                I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming
                                                circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on
                                                a second independent authoritative source to corroborate it. yea, I'm
                                                being a broken record.

                                                so if what you are doing is "theory", THE most important thing you can do
                                                is to cite and record sources for all data. That way, when you go back,
                                                people can develop their own opinions about whether the data element is
                                                credible.

                                                Regarding "Prussia". Don't be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath
                                                water. One inaccurate data element is not necessarily grounds to discount
                                                the whole document. It is never clear to me who the source of the
                                                information was for all or part of this information. Self? Clerk?
                                                Offspring? Friend? In some cases, it was simply confusion on the part of
                                                the immigrant. In most cases these folk were ignorant (not stupid),
                                                illiterate rural folks from small obscure region.

                                                Regards,
                                                Bill

                                                On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
                                                wrote:
                                                > I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a
                                                > practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin
                                                > states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place
                                                > of origin... :-)
                                                >
                                                > Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals, " I am
                                                > very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already
                                                warned,
                                                > many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before
                                                > 1900.
                                                >
                                                > EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it
                                                > has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would
                                                > definitely recommend it to anyone. I am thoroughly enjoying this, and
                                                > this group...
                                                > Ben
                                                >
                                                > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@att. net> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > From: ssultonia <wasmore@att. net>
                                                > Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
                                                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Janet,
                                                > Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
                                                > confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
                                                > Regards.
                                                > Bill
                                                >
                                                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                                                >>
                                                >> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
                                                > is the
                                                >> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
                                                >> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
                                                > usually does
                                                >> not contain this information. See
                                                >> http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> Janet
                                                >>
                                                >>
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