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RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family

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  • Margo Smith
    Dear Janet --   I hope you will still talk to me.  My husband is at the end of 11 generations of sturdy serf stock.  The best I could do for him was a
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 18, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Janet --

      I hope you will still talk to me.� My husband is at the end of 11 generations of sturdy serf stock.� The best I could do for him was a couple of members of village councils, descendants of village founder, 1 miller, 1 blacksmith, 1 furrier.� Some were perpetually obligated to Revay family members.

      Jan Purgina.� Samuel Mikovini 1700-1750:� Zivot a Dielo.� Bratislava:� Sprava Geodezie a Kartografie na Slovensku, 1958.� Mapa 30 (entire Turiec County) and Mapa 21 (south part of Turiec County).� Bring your magnifying glass.� No, it does not provide the names of any property owners.� But it is soooo cool to see that the ancestral villages existed then, and the "roads" between them.� Actually, it seems that most of the Turiec villages existed back to around 1250.

      Have you looked at LDS microfilm # 0632504 which are documents on the nobility investigations of Turiec County from 1723-1784?

      Also Janos Ilessy.� "Turocz varmegye" in Az 1754-55 evi orszagos Nemesi Osszeiras.� Budapest, 1902 pp. 114-117� List of Turiec noble families.

      I don't recall any Murrins, but I wasn't looking.

      I have found that ages reported at the time of death were often wrong.

      Witnesses are hardly "useless."� They substantiate social networks.� It was not at all uncommon for families linked first by baptismal sponsorship later became linked by marriage.� Example, the children of compadres later marry.� Also sometimes when it is hard to tell if a certain child belongs to a particular family, one can see that all of the prospective siblings have the same godparents.

      I have spent so much time with the parish records from Turciansky Dur, Slovenske Pravno, and Turciansky Michal (includes Ivancina) that I feel like I could recite them from memory!

      The prevalence, or lack thereof, of a surname can increase or decrease quickly in just a couple of generations depending on the luck of the draw, so to speak.� How many sons does a couple have and do they survive to have sons of their own?� If the family has a bunch of daughters and no sons who live to adulthood, the surname dies out.� A couple of things made a huge impression on me:� families had many children assuming both parents were living, but a lot of the children died; lots of twins too.

      Did I cover everything?

      Margo

      --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

      From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 4:32 PM






      Dear Margo,

      I am totally unfamiliar with Samuel Mikovini's maps. This news is very
      exciting. Where are the maps available? Does he include the names of the
      owners of the farmsteads? That would be absolutely too good to be true, so I
      am not holding my breath.

      When Kozlay made his trip to Turocz in 1844 he said he was surprised to
      learn that the land his family had owned in Nagy Csepcseny was still called
      �Kozlayo csaska,� meaning Kozlay property. It is this one statement that has
      made me believe there might be some record of real estate transactions when
      the family left for the south. There might also be court records. But that
      would take someone with much better access to records than is available to
      us on microfilm. Vladimir Bohinc has told me that he would have such access.

      Court and official county records were very rich when looking for
      information about the family in Jasz-Nagykun- Szolnok megye. Thanks to my
      good friend Lajos Reich, in Budapest, we received a five-page report on what
      was found there. He is a frequent contributor to both Slovak and Hungarian
      message boards and forums and is an invaluable resource. Because he had a
      high governmental position during the Communist era, he knows important
      people all over Hungary, and he knows how to gently twist arms to get
      information.

      I strongly suspect that none of the family was left behind when they moved.
      He did not mention meeting with anyone there from that side of the family.
      In fact, all of his visiting was with relatives of his step-mother,
      Zsuzsanna Ruttkay, who was also related to the Kossuths through her own
      step-mother, whom he also visited. Her own mother was a Szocsovszky, but he
      never mentioned that name either. Those families, of course, were all
      nobles, dating way back in Turocz.

      He stated very clearly, several times, that he descended from �an old noble
      family." Yet I have not seen the name in listings of Turocz nobility. There
      are very, very few references in any of the church records to Kozlay (and
      variations) or Kozlik. Most of them appear only as witnesses, which of
      course are genealogically pretty useless. Yet the �Kozlay� entries suggest
      nobility (D., N., or D.N.), while the �Kozlik� ones do not. There is a
      single intriguing 1792 death notice in Ivancina for �Joannes Kozik, lanio
      Lovinobanensis,� age 47. Ivancina was the church for residents of Nagy
      Csepcseny. The notice states that he died in the baths at Stubnya! He is
      clearly related, as the Koziks lived in Lovinobana (Lonyabanya) in Nograd
      megye, and they were butchers (lanio). There seems to be little reason for
      this notice to appear in the Ivancina records unless he had been born there
      and was perhaps visiting relatives at the time. Yet I find no firm birth
      record for him. There was a Johannes, son of Michaelis Kozlik, baptized
      there in 1752, but this is seven years off--unless his age at death was
      misstated.

      The marriage record for the father of great-grandfather Kozlay says that his
      father was Samuel. The only reference I have found for Samuel (lanio) was a
      death notice in Szirak (in Nograd) that said he died in 1797, age 38, and
      was born in Szirak. Yet the diary says that it was his grandfather who moved
      from Turocz to the �Hungarian plain� during the reign of Maria Teresia. So
      it may be an error to have said he was born in Szirak.

      Were Samuel and Johannes brothers? Unfortunately, it is the early records
      for Lovinobana/Lonyaban ya that are missing. They likely could have answered
      these many questions. But we have to work with what we have.

      Have you ever run into the name Murin? There is a marriage record in
      Ivancina for Anna Kozljk and Georgius Murin of Toth-Pronensis in 1741.

      Those old records are so hard to read! But I have been through them many
      times, and I don't think I've missed anything. There are lots of Kozols, but
      I don't think they are related. There are way too many of them.

      I hope this hasn't been too boring. Obviously this has been a great source
      of frustration. I have tried to verify everything in the diary, and for the
      most part I have been successful. But the issue of whether the family was in
      fact noble and when and who made the move from Turocz to Nograd remains an
      unsolved mystery. Were Kozlay and Kozlik the same? Importantly, I found two
      entries for Samuel in Szirak, married to Susanna Massanyi, that used the
      Kozlay name: witnesses to a baptism, Samuel Kozlay and Susanna Massanyi in
      1795, and the death of Susanna Massanyi, widow of Samuel Kozele, in 1800.
      These were great-grandfather Kozlay's grandparents. This matches the entry
      for the death of Samuel Kozik in 1797. This seems to imply that both names
      were used when they lived in Nograd! Yet the Kozlay name was not resurrected
      until great-grandfather Kozlay began using it, probably in the 1840s.

      Why do the Kozlay entries imply nobility and the Kozliks do not? Were they
      butchers in Turocz also?

      If your eyes glaze over during all this, that's all right. But it helps me
      to pull my data together and organize what I have. It also helps me to
      figure out what information I need to send to Vladimir if and when I decide
      to hire him.

      Thank you for urging me to get back to the book. If I have a legacy at all,
      it will be that book. But that truly will mean cutting back severely on the
      research I am doing for others, which is so much fun!

      Please let me know about the maps.

      Best regards,
      Janet

      -----Original Message-----
      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com] On
      Behalf Of Margo Smith
      Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:36 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family

      Janet, the "diary" you have is a valuable and precious resource!� You must
      keep your focus on finishing this project.� (Sometimes, I need to be
      reminded about focus also.)

      Yes, Rebro's book is in Slovak.� And I don't read the language.� What I did
      was go through the book page by page and photocopy all pages that mentioned
      my villages and a few other topics I could recognize.� When a cousin visited
      from SK, I cornered him and pleaded that he read (translate) for me.� He
      tired of that pretty quickly, so he took my photocopies and had them
      translated.� Nagy Csepcin is not one of my villages, but I did photocopy all
      the charts, so I' ll�look for that when I get� back to IL and let you know.�
      You probably should remind me the middle of next month.

      Are you familiar with the 1730s maps by Samuel Mikovini?� He did 2 maps of
      Turocz.� There is Nagy Csepcin!� For each of the villages he draws in the
      individual farmsteads -- I'm pretty certain that he does NOT have the actual
      # of farmsteads per village.� E.g. Dubove was always substantially larger
      than a lot of the other villages in the southern part of the valley, but is
      not shown on the map as being a lot larger.� What I just noticed about N-C
      is that behind the farmsteads he has drawn in what looks like an orchard.�
      It is the only village with an orchard.� (Check the online tax list for 1715
      for N-C.� Look at the description after the list of taxables and see if the
      village description mentions an orchard.)

      Yes, name changes are frustrating.� A lot of my folks had aliases in the
      1700s.� You have to check every source�for both the surname and the alias --
      and you have to find at least 1 record that lists both the surname and the
      alias in the same record to know that the names are linked.� I'm still
      struggling with the alternate spellings of the names of the godparents and
      marriage witnesses, e.g. Macz, Matz, Mac are all the same person.� There are
      relatively few surnames where the spelling is standardized (there is
      Hungarian, Slovak, and Latin).

      Yes, my life changed forever when the Slovaks came into my life in 2003.

      Keep focused!

      Margo�

      --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

      From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 12:24 PM

      Dear Margo,

      My husband's great-grandfather was an officer in the 1848-49 war, stationed
      at Komarom when the army was finally defeated, and escaped from Hungary to
      the U.S. with a group of his fellow officers. He brought with him his �big
      book,� which was not just a diary but also many memoirs, poetry, and
      fiction. He continued his diary through his first few years in America.
      Added to that was a huge amount of correspondence. Several years ago we had
      it all translated from Hungarian. It took two years two translate nearly
      1000 pages. It has been my intention to publish (on the Internet) the
      translations, to which I am adding extensive annotations. I worked on it
      steadily for several years, but I have been very bad at getting back to it.
      I got stuck when I came to some that had been written in German for which we
      did not have the translations. Well, they have now been done, so I don't
      have a good excuse any more. It's just so much more fun helping others with
      their research. I need to work on self-discipline and get the job done.
      There is very little in English that relates to the daily life of the
      well-to-do in 19th-century Hungary. It also gives insight into the
      relationship between the serfs and the estate managers and other interesting
      topics. (Included is some very racy stuff regarding sexual exploits, so racy
      that my translator didn't want to translate it in detail, which I insisted
      on. They were a very free-wheeling bunch about sex, both men and women.) It
      would be terribly sad if I never finished it.

      Of course I have also done a lot of work researching the family. But the
      transitional period between Turocz and Nograd is very hazy, mainly because
      relevant church records have been lost. Trying to make a connection is
      complicated also because the family used more than one name. I think the
      family was known as Kozlik and/or a form of Kozlay in Turocz, but so far I
      have found almost no firm connections. I have considered hiring Vladimir
      Bohinc, who says it would be an interesting project, but it would also be
      very expensive research.

      I certainly agree that that area of Slovakia is very beautiful. We drove up
      there from Hungary, and the mountains and forests were lovely.
      Great-grandfather' s trip in 1844 was in mid-winter, which I can't imagine.
      He had to exchange his horses in Besztercebanya (Banska Bystrica) for ones
      that were familiar with mountainous terrain, and he did complain about the
      cold. Whatever made him choose that season for long-distance traveling is
      beyond me.

      How wonderful it is that you have been able to find relatives there today.
      I'm sure we will never be that fortunate. But I was surprised this year to
      discover descendants of great-grandfather Kozlay's mother, and they have
      worked out an extensive genealogy of the family. It was most interesting
      that although Kozlay's father and grandfather both married into that family,
      neither of the marriages appeared in the family tree. So I have been able to
      send them significant information.

      Is the book you recommended only in Slovak? I do not know the language at
      all, but I am always up for learning more.

      Best regards, Janet

      -----Original Message-----
      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
      On
      Behalf Of Margo Smith
      Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:52 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family

      Janet, yes, there were a lot of Lichners in Turocz.� My husband's great aunt
      (an immigrant from Kal'amenova in the 1920s) told me that her Lichners (her
      mother's ancestors) had "come across the mountains after the Napoleonic
      Wars."� The 1715 tax list shows that there were Lichners in Turocz at that
      time, so it wouldn't surprise me if Aunt Anna's chronology was off.

      Yes, after the Turks were expelled, a bunch of folks from the north migrated
      south to occupy that vacated territory.� Most branches of my husband's
      family was in Turocz back into the 1600s and stayed there.� He has cousins
      there still.

      Lucky you to have the diary of your husband's great-grandfather!� Have you
      considered publishing it?

      Yes, I have visited Turocz (now Turiec) 3 times between 2003-2006.�� The
      principal crop is cereal grain.� Increased logging in the forests of the
      Mala Fatras to the west.� Everyone, or so it seems, has a garden plot where
      they grow potatoes and other veggies.� I particularly liked seeing the apple
      trees growing along the roadsides -- good use of space.� No, I did not get
      to Sklabina, but we did visit the castles at Orava and Bojnice in adjacent
      counties -- and the ruins of Zniev in Turocz.� Next trip has the ruins of
      the castle at Blatnica on my itinerary because my husband has ancestors from
      there also.

      I wanted to visit Zniev because my husband's grandfather had told me about
      seeing them from Kal'amenova when he was growing up.� With binoculars, I
      searched unsuccessfully for the ruins from the valley floor.� Then I found a
      map of hiking trails which showed the location and way to the ruins.� Once I
      got up there I realized that the forest had grown up and obscured the ruins
      in the century between the time that the grandfather had lived in
      Kal'amenova and my trip.�

      Potatoes are a New World domesticate.� They were cultivated in Slovakia
      starting in about the 1770s in response to a famine.

      Check out Karol Rebro's book Ubarska regulacia Marie Terezie a poddanske
      upravy Jozefa II Na Slovensku.� You can get it on interlibrary loan.� If my
      memory is correct, there are tables which list the villages and whether they
      are good or poor land.� If you remind me when I get back to IL after Aug.
      12, I will look up your villages for you.� My recollection is that Turiec
      was entirely in the 3 best classes of land.

      Margo

      --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

      From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:00 AM

      Margo,

      Note in the Radix Index (www.radixindex. com) how many Lichners show up in
      villages in Turocz--Tot- Prona, Turocz-Szent- Marton, Zsambokret, Stubnya,
      even my village of interest, Nagy-Csepcseny. Then you see them show up in
      places to the south--Beszterceban ya, Selmecbanya, Balassagyarmat,
      Endrefalva. I have seen in my own research many, many families (both peasant
      and noble) from Turocz who moved south, often to Nograd. Most of this
      migration seemed to take place in the late 1700s and early 1800s. My
      husband's family was a part of this pattern, going first to Nograd, then to
      northern Pest, and finally ending up in Jasz-Nagykun- Szolnok.

      According to the extensive diary of my husband's great-grandfather, who
      visited his relatives in Turocz in 1844, the land was very poor for
      agriculture, with potatoes being a main crop. This may help explain why so
      many left.

      It sounds like you have also visited the area. Did you get to see the castle
      at Sklabina? That was a highlight of our trip.

      Janet

      -----Original Message-----
      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
      com]
      On
      Behalf Of Margo Smith
      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:11 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

      Thank you for your suggestion, Janet.� Yes, I checked both Catholic and
      Lutheran church records for Slovenske Pravno and found only the daughter.�
      It could be an explanation.� The Lichners (father) were Lutheran.� Maybe I
      should look for an adjacent Lutheran parish and check that one.� The family
      lived in the hamlet of Kal'amenova, but attended church and school in
      Slovenske Pravno.

      --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

      From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 9:03 AM

      Hi Margo,

      In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed
      marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of the
      mother. Could that explain your data? Have you checked the records for both
      churches?

      Janet

      -----Original Message-----
      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
      com]
      On
      Behalf Of Margo Smith
      Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:43 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

      Dobre rano Everyone!

      Janet's comments�about Turocz are right on.� It is a fascinating county in
      terms of its history, not to mention beautiful.� In addition, Slovenske
      Pravno is along an ancient trade route which extended from the Danube basin
      north into what is now Poland.

      RE: The "Durko" on the photo.� Could it be Jurko, which is a nickname for
      Juraj (George)?

      The LDS has microfilmed the "mixed marriage registers" from Slovenske Pravno
      which is a gold mine.� In this register, 1 spouse is Catholic and 1 is
      Lutheran.� People are identified by name, age, date of marriage, names and
      ages of children.� Multiple years available.� They are on the same reels
      with the church records.

      The family I am looking at in the mixed marriage registers has presented a
      dilemma.� In the 1860s, the family had 3 children:� Jan, Jozef, and Anna.��
      Only Anna appears with her parents in the register.� Why would only 1 of the
      children be listed?� The only thing I can think of is that Anna was
      Catholic, and the 2 sons�might have been�Lutherans.� (Yes, there were 3
      children who lived to adulthood -- other records verify that.)� Was it
      common to raise some children in 1 religion and other children in the
      other?� Among Anna's own children, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Catholic, and 1
      I don't know the religion.� Does anyone have any insight on this?

      Margo

      --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

      From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:34 PM

      Hi Liz and Anabeth,

      Rudno (Turoczrudno) is a tiny village just south of Slovenske Pravno. Its
      church records will be found with those from Slovenske Pravno.

      It should be very interesting to match and combine the Chicago church
      records with those from Slovakia. It should make for a very large and
      complex family tree. It will be a lot of work, but the results should be
      spectacular.

      Tur�cz was a very interesting county for its small size. There was a
      relatively high proportion of Germans there, more than its neighboring
      counties. It was also an important center for the Evangelical/ Lutheran
      church as well as for Slovak nationalism. Ironically, it was also the home
      of Lajos Kossuth�s family since the 13th century. Kossuth led Hungary�s
      1848-49 war of independence against Austria yet never recognized the
      strength and determination of Hungary�s Slovak minority to seek their own
      independence from Hungary.

      Tur�cz (Nagy Csepcs�ny) was the home of my husband�s ancestors, in the
      1700s, before they migrated south to the Hungarian Plain. I have had
      considerable difficulty tracing the family there. If either of you should
      happen to look at records from the 1700s and run into names like Kozlay,
      Kozlech, or Kozlik, or anything else beginning with �Kozl,� I would
      appreciate hearing.

      Janet

      Janet

      _____

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
      com]
      On
      Behalf Of Anabeth Dollins
      Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:33 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

      Hi, Liz --

      I spent some time looking at my Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church
      (Chicago) microfilms. Found a bunch of records on Kuka, Klein, and
      Svec families, which I'll send you as a separate email. There are lots
      and lots of Mizialkos and Zvonar family records -- I didn't copy any
      of those records since there are so many.

      In the records, the Klein family that you mentioned is from Rudno;
      Zuzanna's last name is spelled Derer, not Direr. And another of your
      Zuzannas is Fontani in the records, not Fontana.

      Interesting to note that while your Klein family and the one in my
      database are not the same, they're both from Rudno. Wonder whether
      they're related.

      Anabeth Dollins

      On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Elizabeth Tjomsland
      <e_tjomsland@ <mailto:e_tjomsland %40yahoo. com> yahoo.com> wrote:
      > Hello, my name is Liz. I joined this group recently, because I thought I
      > might get some pointers on my genealogy research. I'm a novice who has
      been
      > working from bits and pieces of information found in the paperwork of my
      > parents after they passed on. All the folks from previous generations are
      > gone, so there is no one left to ask. The following is what I do know at
      > this point.
      >
      > My paternal grandfather, Juraj Kuka (1885-1961), came from Slovenske
      > Pravno,Martin Turciansky Svaety. He was very certain that there was no
      > change in the surname spelling.
      > Parents: Juraj Kuka(1843-1905) and Suzanna Fontana(1859- 1941).
      > Siblings: Jan, Jozef (m. Irena Kollar), Amelia (m. Paul Podmajersky) ,
      > Suzanna (m. George Durkovic, I think).
      > My grandfather married Suzanna Klein(1889-1934) . Even though the name
      sounds
      > Germanic, she insisted that she was Slovak. Her parents were Jozef
      > Klein(1869-1934) and Suzanna Direr (1864-1942) and they supposedly had a
      farm
      > in Slovakia which was eventually confiscated by the Communists.
      >
      > My maternal grandmother, Alzbeta Zvonar,(1892- 1935) came from Brezova.
      > Parents: Martin Zvonar and Katarina Mizialko (1862-1929)
      > Siblings: Matej (1887-1887), Stefan (1888 - ?), Judita (1896-1902) and
      > Martin (1905 - ?).
      > My grandmother married Louis (Alois) Svec in Chicago. I know next to
      nothing
      > about him. He supposedly ran away from home at the age of 17, came to the
      > U.S. and had little contact with his family. His parents were Jozef Svec
      and
      > Mary Rovnanski.
      >
      > My maternal great grandmother was Katarina Mizialko from Brezova.
      > Parents: Stefan Mizialko(b.1820- ?) and Alzbeta Chvascula(b. 1822-?).
      > Siblings: Stefan (1847-?), Matej, Jan, and Suzanna 1856-?)(m Samuel Nosko)
      > She married Martin Zvonar in 1886, who apparently came to the U.S. on
      > several occasions to work the coal mines in Pennsylvania. She immigrated
      to
      > the U.S. after her husband died.
      >
      > Everyone that immigrated settled in Chicago or surrounding area and, with
      > the exception of Louis Svec and his parents, were Lutheran (Trinity Slovak
      > Lutheran Church).
      >
      > My dad's name was George Julius, however, on the back of a photograph, I
      see
      > that his mother wrote his name as "Durko". Is this indicative of
      something?
      > Also wrote the middle name of my uncle as "Ludwig" (Louis). Is this just a
      > dialect issue or ???? All the other "Georges" in his family were Juraj.
      >
      > I will welcome any and all comments.... .anything that might help me
      untangle
      > my roots.
      >
      > Many Thanks.....Regards, Liz
      >
      >

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