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RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

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  • Janet Kozlay
    Hi Margo, In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 8, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Margo,

      In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed
      marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of the
      mother. Could that explain your data? Have you checked the records for both
      churches?

      Janet




      -----Original Message-----
      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Margo Smith
      Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:43 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

      Dobre rano Everyone!
       
      Janet's comments about Turocz are right on.  It is a fascinating county in
      terms of its history, not to mention beautiful.  In addition, Slovenske
      Pravno is along an ancient trade route which extended from the Danube basin
      north into what is now Poland.
       
      RE: The "Durko" on the photo.  Could it be Jurko, which is a nickname for
      Juraj (George)?
       
      The LDS has microfilmed the "mixed marriage registers" from Slovenske Pravno
      which is a gold mine.  In this register, 1 spouse is Catholic and 1 is
      Lutheran.  People are identified by name, age, date of marriage, names and
      ages of children.  Multiple years available.  They are on the same reels
      with the church records.
       
      The family I am looking at in the mixed marriage registers has presented a
      dilemma.  In the 1860s, the family had 3 children:  Jan, Jozef, and Anna.  
      Only Anna appears with her parents in the register.  Why would only 1 of the
      children be listed?  The only thing I can think of is that Anna was
      Catholic, and the 2 sons might have been Lutherans.  (Yes, there were 3
      children who lived to adulthood -- other records verify that.)  Was it
      common to raise some children in 1 religion and other children in the
      other?  Among Anna's own children, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Catholic, and 1
      I don't know the religion.  Does anyone have any insight on this?
       
      Margo

      --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

      From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
      Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:34 PM






      Hi Liz and Anabeth,

      Rudno (Turoczrudno) is a tiny village just south of Slovenske Pravno. Its
      church records will be found with those from Slovenske Pravno.

      It should be very interesting to match and combine the Chicago church
      records with those from Slovakia. It should make for a very large and
      complex family tree. It will be a lot of work, but the results should be
      spectacular.

      Turócz was a very interesting county for its small size. There was a
      relatively high proportion of Germans there, more than its neighboring
      counties. It was also an important center for the Evangelical/ Lutheran
      church as well as for Slovak nationalism. Ironically, it was also the home
      of Lajos Kossuth’s family since the 13th century. Kossuth led Hungary’s
      1848-49 war of independence against Austria yet never recognized the
      strength and determination of Hungary’s Slovak minority to seek their own
      independence from Hungary.

      Turócz (Nagy Csepcsény) was the home of my husband’s ancestors, in the
      1700s, before they migrated south to the Hungarian Plain. I have had
      considerable difficulty tracing the family there. If either of you should
      happen to look at records from the 1700s and run into names like Kozlay,
      Kozlech, or Kozlik, or anything else beginning with “Kozl,” I would
      appreciate hearing.

      Janet

      Janet

      _____

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
      On
      Behalf Of Anabeth Dollins
      Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:33 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

      Hi, Liz --

      I spent some time looking at my Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church
      (Chicago) microfilms. Found a bunch of records on Kuka, Klein, and
      Svec families, which I'll send you as a separate email. There are lots
      and lots of Mizialkos and Zvonar family records -- I didn't copy any
      of those records since there are so many.

      In the records, the Klein family that you mentioned is from Rudno;
      Zuzanna's last name is spelled Derer, not Direr. And another of your
      Zuzannas is Fontani in the records, not Fontana.

      Interesting to note that while your Klein family and the one in my
      database are not the same, they're both from Rudno. Wonder whether
      they're related.

      Anabeth Dollins

      On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Elizabeth Tjomsland
      <e_tjomsland@ <mailto:e_tjomsland %40yahoo. com> yahoo.com> wrote:
      > Hello, my name is Liz. I joined this group recently, because I thought I
      > might get some pointers on my genealogy research. I'm a novice who has
      been
      > working from bits and pieces of information found in the paperwork of my
      > parents after they passed on. All the folks from previous generations are
      > gone, so there is no one left to ask. The following is what I do know at
      > this point.
      >
      > My paternal grandfather, Juraj Kuka (1885-1961), came from Slovenske
      > Pravno,Martin Turciansky Svaety. He was very certain that there was no
      > change in the surname spelling.
      > Parents: Juraj Kuka(1843-1905) and Suzanna Fontana(1859- 1941).
      > Siblings: Jan, Jozef (m. Irena Kollar), Amelia (m. Paul Podmajersky) ,
      > Suzanna (m. George Durkovic, I think).
      > My grandfather married Suzanna Klein(1889-1934) . Even though the name
      sounds
      > Germanic, she insisted that she was Slovak. Her parents were Jozef
      > Klein(1869-1934) and Suzanna Direr (1864-1942) and they supposedly had a
      farm
      > in Slovakia which was eventually confiscated by the Communists.
      >
      > My maternal grandmother, Alzbeta Zvonar,(1892- 1935) came from Brezova.
      > Parents: Martin Zvonar and Katarina Mizialko (1862-1929)
      > Siblings: Matej (1887-1887), Stefan (1888 - ?), Judita (1896-1902) and
      > Martin (1905 - ?).
      > My grandmother married Louis (Alois) Svec in Chicago. I know next to
      nothing
      > about him. He supposedly ran away from home at the age of 17, came to the
      > U.S. and had little contact with his family. His parents were Jozef Svec
      and
      > Mary Rovnanski.
      >
      > My maternal great grandmother was Katarina Mizialko from Brezova.
      > Parents: Stefan Mizialko(b.1820- ?) and Alzbeta Chvascula(b. 1822-?).
      > Siblings: Stefan (1847-?), Matej, Jan, and Suzanna 1856-?)(m Samuel Nosko)
      > She married Martin Zvonar in 1886, who apparently came to the U.S. on
      > several occasions to work the coal mines in Pennsylvania. She immigrated
      to
      > the U.S. after her husband died.
      >
      > Everyone that immigrated settled in Chicago or surrounding area and, with
      > the exception of Louis Svec and his parents, were Lutheran (Trinity Slovak
      > Lutheran Church).
      >
      > My dad's name was George Julius, however, on the back of a photograph, I
      see
      > that his mother wrote his name as "Durko". Is this indicative of
      something?
      > Also wrote the middle name of my uncle as "Ludwig" (Louis). Is this just a
      > dialect issue or ???? All the other "Georges" in his family were Juraj.
      >
      > I will welcome any and all comments.... .anything that might help me
      untangle
      > my roots.
      >
      > Many Thanks.....Regards, Liz
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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    • Margo Smith
      Thank you for your suggestion, Janet.  Yes, I checked both Catholic and Lutheran church records for Slovenske Pravno and found only the daughter.  It could
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 10, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you for your suggestion, Janet.� Yes, I checked both Catholic and Lutheran church records for Slovenske Pravno and found only the daughter.� It could be an explanation.� The Lichners (father) were Lutheran.� Maybe I should look for an adjacent Lutheran parish and check that one.� The family lived in the hamlet of Kal'amenova, but attended church and school in Slovenske Pravno.

        --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

        From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
        Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 9:03 AM






        Hi Margo,

        In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed
        marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of the
        mother. Could that explain your data? Have you checked the records for both
        churches?

        Janet

        -----Original Message-----
        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com] On
        Behalf Of Margo Smith
        Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:43 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

        Dobre rano Everyone!

        Janet's comments�about Turocz are right on.� It is a fascinating county in
        terms of its history, not to mention beautiful.� In addition, Slovenske
        Pravno is along an ancient trade route which extended from the Danube basin
        north into what is now Poland.

        RE: The "Durko" on the photo.� Could it be Jurko, which is a nickname for
        Juraj (George)?

        The LDS has microfilmed the "mixed marriage registers" from Slovenske Pravno
        which is a gold mine.� In this register, 1 spouse is Catholic and 1 is
        Lutheran.� People are identified by name, age, date of marriage, names and
        ages of children.� Multiple years available.� They are on the same reels
        with the church records.

        The family I am looking at in the mixed marriage registers has presented a
        dilemma.� In the 1860s, the family had 3 children:� Jan, Jozef, and Anna.��
        Only Anna appears with her parents in the register.� Why would only 1 of the
        children be listed?� The only thing I can think of is that Anna was
        Catholic, and the 2 sons�might have been�Lutherans.� (Yes, there were 3
        children who lived to adulthood -- other records verify that.)� Was it
        common to raise some children in 1 religion and other children in the
        other?� Among Anna's own children, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Catholic, and 1
        I don't know the religion.� Does anyone have any insight on this?

        Margo

        --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

        From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
        Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:34 PM

        Hi Liz and Anabeth,

        Rudno (Turoczrudno) is a tiny village just south of Slovenske Pravno. Its
        church records will be found with those from Slovenske Pravno.

        It should be very interesting to match and combine the Chicago church
        records with those from Slovakia. It should make for a very large and
        complex family tree. It will be a lot of work, but the results should be
        spectacular.

        Tur�cz was a very interesting county for its small size. There was a
        relatively high proportion of Germans there, more than its neighboring
        counties. It was also an important center for the Evangelical/ Lutheran
        church as well as for Slovak nationalism. Ironically, it was also the home
        of Lajos Kossuth�s family since the 13th century. Kossuth led Hungary�s
        1848-49 war of independence against Austria yet never recognized the
        strength and determination of Hungary�s Slovak minority to seek their own
        independence from Hungary.

        Tur�cz (Nagy Csepcs�ny) was the home of my husband�s ancestors, in the
        1700s, before they migrated south to the Hungarian Plain. I have had
        considerable difficulty tracing the family there. If either of you should
        happen to look at records from the 1700s and run into names like Kozlay,
        Kozlech, or Kozlik, or anything else beginning with �Kozl,� I would
        appreciate hearing.

        Janet

        Janet

        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
        On
        Behalf Of Anabeth Dollins
        Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:33 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

        Hi, Liz --

        I spent some time looking at my Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church
        (Chicago) microfilms. Found a bunch of records on Kuka, Klein, and
        Svec families, which I'll send you as a separate email. There are lots
        and lots of Mizialkos and Zvonar family records -- I didn't copy any
        of those records since there are so many.

        In the records, the Klein family that you mentioned is from Rudno;
        Zuzanna's last name is spelled Derer, not Direr. And another of your
        Zuzannas is Fontani in the records, not Fontana.

        Interesting to note that while your Klein family and the one in my
        database are not the same, they're both from Rudno. Wonder whether
        they're related.

        Anabeth Dollins

        On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Elizabeth Tjomsland
        <e_tjomsland@ <mailto:e_tjomsland %40yahoo. com> yahoo.com> wrote:
        > Hello, my name is Liz. I joined this group recently, because I thought I
        > might get some pointers on my genealogy research. I'm a novice who has
        been
        > working from bits and pieces of information found in the paperwork of my
        > parents after they passed on. All the folks from previous generations are
        > gone, so there is no one left to ask. The following is what I do know at
        > this point.
        >
        > My paternal grandfather, Juraj Kuka (1885-1961), came from Slovenske
        > Pravno,Martin Turciansky Svaety. He was very certain that there was no
        > change in the surname spelling.
        > Parents: Juraj Kuka(1843-1905) and Suzanna Fontana(1859- 1941).
        > Siblings: Jan, Jozef (m. Irena Kollar), Amelia (m. Paul Podmajersky) ,
        > Suzanna (m. George Durkovic, I think).
        > My grandfather married Suzanna Klein(1889-1934) . Even though the name
        sounds
        > Germanic, she insisted that she was Slovak. Her parents were Jozef
        > Klein(1869-1934) and Suzanna Direr (1864-1942) and they supposedly had a
        farm
        > in Slovakia which was eventually confiscated by the Communists.
        >
        > My maternal grandmother, Alzbeta Zvonar,(1892- 1935) came from Brezova.
        > Parents: Martin Zvonar and Katarina Mizialko (1862-1929)
        > Siblings: Matej (1887-1887), Stefan (1888 - ?), Judita (1896-1902) and
        > Martin (1905 - ?).
        > My grandmother married Louis (Alois) Svec in Chicago. I know next to
        nothing
        > about him. He supposedly ran away from home at the age of 17, came to the
        > U.S. and had little contact with his family. His parents were Jozef Svec
        and
        > Mary Rovnanski.
        >
        > My maternal great grandmother was Katarina Mizialko from Brezova.
        > Parents: Stefan Mizialko(b.1820- ?) and Alzbeta Chvascula(b. 1822-?).
        > Siblings: Stefan (1847-?), Matej, Jan, and Suzanna 1856-?)(m Samuel Nosko)
        > She married Martin Zvonar in 1886, who apparently came to the U.S. on
        > several occasions to work the coal mines in Pennsylvania. She immigrated
        to
        > the U.S. after her husband died.
        >
        > Everyone that immigrated settled in Chicago or surrounding area and, with
        > the exception of Louis Svec and his parents, were Lutheran (Trinity Slovak
        > Lutheran Church).
        >
        > My dad's name was George Julius, however, on the back of a photograph, I
        see
        > that his mother wrote his name as "Durko". Is this indicative of
        something?
        > Also wrote the middle name of my uncle as "Ludwig" (Louis). Is this just a
        > dialect issue or ???? All the other "Georges" in his family were Juraj.
        >
        > I will welcome any and all comments.... .anything that might help me
        untangle
        > my roots.
        >
        > Many Thanks.....Regards, Liz
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------ --------- --------- ------

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/

        To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Janet Kozlay
        Margo, Note in the Radix Index (www.radixindex.com) how many Lichners show up in villages in Turocz--Tot-Prona, Turocz-Szent-Marton, Zsambokret, Stubnya, even
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 11, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Margo,

          Note in the Radix Index (www.radixindex.com) how many Lichners show up in
          villages in Turocz--Tot-Prona, Turocz-Szent-Marton, Zsambokret, Stubnya,
          even my village of interest, Nagy-Csepcseny. Then you see them show up in
          places to the south--Besztercebanya, Selmecbanya, Balassagyarmat,
          Endrefalva. I have seen in my own research many, many families (both peasant
          and noble) from Turocz who moved south, often to Nograd. Most of this
          migration seemed to take place in the late 1700s and early 1800s. My
          husband's family was a part of this pattern, going first to Nograd, then to
          northern Pest, and finally ending up in Jasz-Nagykun-Szolnok.

          According to the extensive diary of my husband's great-grandfather, who
          visited his relatives in Turocz in 1844, the land was very poor for
          agriculture, with potatoes being a main crop. This may help explain why so
          many left.

          It sounds like you have also visited the area. Did you get to see the castle
          at Sklabina? That was a highlight of our trip.

          Janet




          -----Original Message-----
          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Margo Smith
          Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:11 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

          Thank you for your suggestion, Janet.  Yes, I checked both Catholic and
          Lutheran church records for Slovenske Pravno and found only the daughter. 
          It could be an explanation.  The Lichners (father) were Lutheran.  Maybe I
          should look for an adjacent Lutheran parish and check that one.  The family
          lived in the hamlet of Kal'amenova, but attended church and school in
          Slovenske Pravno.

          --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

          From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
          Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 9:03 AM






          Hi Margo,

          In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed
          marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of the
          mother. Could that explain your data? Have you checked the records for both
          churches?

          Janet

          -----Original Message-----
          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
          On
          Behalf Of Margo Smith
          Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:43 AM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

          Dobre rano Everyone!
           
          Janet's comments about Turocz are right on.  It is a fascinating county in
          terms of its history, not to mention beautiful.  In addition, Slovenske
          Pravno is along an ancient trade route which extended from the Danube basin
          north into what is now Poland.
           
          RE: The "Durko" on the photo.  Could it be Jurko, which is a nickname for
          Juraj (George)?
           
          The LDS has microfilmed the "mixed marriage registers" from Slovenske Pravno
          which is a gold mine.  In this register, 1 spouse is Catholic and 1 is
          Lutheran.  People are identified by name, age, date of marriage, names and
          ages of children.  Multiple years available.  They are on the same reels
          with the church records.
           
          The family I am looking at in the mixed marriage registers has presented a
          dilemma.  In the 1860s, the family had 3 children:  Jan, Jozef, and Anna.  
          Only Anna appears with her parents in the register.  Why would only 1 of the
          children be listed?  The only thing I can think of is that Anna was
          Catholic, and the 2 sons might have been Lutherans.  (Yes, there were 3
          children who lived to adulthood -- other records verify that.)  Was it
          common to raise some children in 1 religion and other children in the
          other?  Among Anna's own children, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Catholic, and 1
          I don't know the religion.  Does anyone have any insight on this?
           
          Margo

          --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

          From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
          Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:34 PM

          Hi Liz and Anabeth,

          Rudno (Turoczrudno) is a tiny village just south of Slovenske Pravno. Its
          church records will be found with those from Slovenske Pravno.

          It should be very interesting to match and combine the Chicago church
          records with those from Slovakia. It should make for a very large and
          complex family tree. It will be a lot of work, but the results should be
          spectacular.

          Turócz was a very interesting county for its small size. There was a
          relatively high proportion of Germans there, more than its neighboring
          counties. It was also an important center for the Evangelical/ Lutheran
          church as well as for Slovak nationalism. Ironically, it was also the home
          of Lajos Kossuth’s family since the 13th century. Kossuth led Hungary’s
          1848-49 war of independence against Austria yet never recognized the
          strength and determination of Hungary’s Slovak minority to seek their own
          independence from Hungary.

          Turócz (Nagy Csepcsény) was the home of my husband’s ancestors, in the
          1700s, before they migrated south to the Hungarian Plain. I have had
          considerable difficulty tracing the family there. If either of you should
          happen to look at records from the 1700s and run into names like Kozlay,
          Kozlech, or Kozlik, or anything else beginning with “Kozl,” I would
          appreciate hearing.

          Janet

          Janet

          _____

          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
          com]
          On
          Behalf Of Anabeth Dollins
          Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:33 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

          Hi, Liz --

          I spent some time looking at my Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church
          (Chicago) microfilms. Found a bunch of records on Kuka, Klein, and
          Svec families, which I'll send you as a separate email. There are lots
          and lots of Mizialkos and Zvonar family records -- I didn't copy any
          of those records since there are so many.

          In the records, the Klein family that you mentioned is from Rudno;
          Zuzanna's last name is spelled Derer, not Direr. And another of your
          Zuzannas is Fontani in the records, not Fontana.

          Interesting to note that while your Klein family and the one in my
          database are not the same, they're both from Rudno. Wonder whether
          they're related.

          Anabeth Dollins

          On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Elizabeth Tjomsland
          <e_tjomsland@ <mailto:e_tjomsland %40yahoo. com> yahoo.com> wrote:
          > Hello, my name is Liz. I joined this group recently, because I thought I
          > might get some pointers on my genealogy research. I'm a novice who has
          been
          > working from bits and pieces of information found in the paperwork of my
          > parents after they passed on. All the folks from previous generations are
          > gone, so there is no one left to ask. The following is what I do know at
          > this point.
          >
          > My paternal grandfather, Juraj Kuka (1885-1961), came from Slovenske
          > Pravno,Martin Turciansky Svaety. He was very certain that there was no
          > change in the surname spelling.
          > Parents: Juraj Kuka(1843-1905) and Suzanna Fontana(1859- 1941).
          > Siblings: Jan, Jozef (m. Irena Kollar), Amelia (m. Paul Podmajersky) ,
          > Suzanna (m. George Durkovic, I think).
          > My grandfather married Suzanna Klein(1889-1934) . Even though the name
          sounds
          > Germanic, she insisted that she was Slovak. Her parents were Jozef
          > Klein(1869-1934) and Suzanna Direr (1864-1942) and they supposedly had a
          farm
          > in Slovakia which was eventually confiscated by the Communists.
          >
          > My maternal grandmother, Alzbeta Zvonar,(1892- 1935) came from Brezova.
          > Parents: Martin Zvonar and Katarina Mizialko (1862-1929)
          > Siblings: Matej (1887-1887), Stefan (1888 - ?), Judita (1896-1902) and
          > Martin (1905 - ?).
          > My grandmother married Louis (Alois) Svec in Chicago. I know next to
          nothing
          > about him. He supposedly ran away from home at the age of 17, came to the
          > U.S. and had little contact with his family. His parents were Jozef Svec
          and
          > Mary Rovnanski.
          >
          > My maternal great grandmother was Katarina Mizialko from Brezova.
          > Parents: Stefan Mizialko(b.1820- ?) and Alzbeta Chvascula(b. 1822-?).
          > Siblings: Stefan (1847-?), Matej, Jan, and Suzanna 1856-?)(m Samuel Nosko)
          > She married Martin Zvonar in 1886, who apparently came to the U.S. on
          > several occasions to work the coal mines in Pennsylvania. She immigrated
          to
          > the U.S. after her husband died.
          >
          > Everyone that immigrated settled in Chicago or surrounding area and, with
          > the exception of Louis Svec and his parents, were Lutheran (Trinity Slovak
          > Lutheran Church).
          >
          > My dad's name was George Julius, however, on the back of a photograph, I
          see
          > that his mother wrote his name as "Durko". Is this indicative of
          something?
          > Also wrote the middle name of my uncle as "Ludwig" (Louis). Is this just a
          > dialect issue or ???? All the other "Georges" in his family were Juraj.
          >
          > I will welcome any and all comments.... .anything that might help me
          untangle
          > my roots.
          >
          > Many Thanks.....Regards, Liz
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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          ------------------------------------

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        • Margo Smith
          Janet, yes, there were a lot of Lichners in Turocz.  My husband s great aunt (an immigrant from Kal amenova in the 1920s) told me that her Lichners (her
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 16, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Janet, yes, there were a lot of Lichners in Turocz.� My husband's great aunt (an immigrant from Kal'amenova in the 1920s) told me that her Lichners (her mother's ancestors) had "come across the mountains after the Napoleonic Wars."� The 1715 tax list shows that there were Lichners in Turocz at that time, so it wouldn't surprise me if Aunt Anna's chronology was off.

            Yes, after the Turks were expelled, a bunch of folks from the north migrated south to occupy that vacated territory.� Most branches of my husband's family was in Turocz back into the 1600s and stayed there.� He has cousins there still.

            Lucky you to have the diary of your husband's great-grandfather!� Have you considered publishing it?

            Yes, I have visited Turocz (now Turiec) 3 times between 2003-2006.�� The principal crop is cereal grain.� Increased logging in the forests of the Mala Fatras to the west.� Everyone, or so it seems, has a garden plot where they grow potatoes and other veggies.� I particularly liked seeing the apple trees growing along the roadsides -- good use of space.� No, I did not get to Sklabina, but we did visit the castles at Orava and Bojnice in adjacent counties -- and the ruins of Zniev in Turocz.� Next trip has the ruins of the castle at Blatnica on my itinerary because my husband has ancestors from there also.

            I wanted to visit Zniev because my husband's grandfather had told me about seeing them from Kal'amenova when he was growing up.� With binoculars, I searched unsuccessfully for the ruins from the valley floor.� Then I found a map of hiking trails which showed the location and way to the ruins.� Once I got up there I realized that the forest had grown up and obscured the ruins in the century between the time that the grandfather had lived in Kal'amenova and my trip.�

            Potatoes are a New World domesticate.� They were cultivated in Slovakia starting in about the 1770s in response to a famine.

            Check out Karol Rebro's book Ubarska regulacia Marie Terezie a poddanske upravy Jozefa II Na Slovensku.� You can get it on interlibrary loan.� If my memory is correct, there are tables which list the villages and whether they are good or poor land.� If you remind me when I get back to IL after Aug. 12, I will look up your villages for you.� My recollection is that Turiec was entirely in the 3 best classes of land.

            Margo

            --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

            From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
            Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:00 AM






            Margo,

            Note in the Radix Index (www.radixindex. com) how many Lichners show up in
            villages in Turocz--Tot- Prona, Turocz-Szent- Marton, Zsambokret, Stubnya,
            even my village of interest, Nagy-Csepcseny. Then you see them show up in
            places to the south--Beszterceban ya, Selmecbanya, Balassagyarmat,
            Endrefalva. I have seen in my own research many, many families (both peasant
            and noble) from Turocz who moved south, often to Nograd. Most of this
            migration seemed to take place in the late 1700s and early 1800s. My
            husband's family was a part of this pattern, going first to Nograd, then to
            northern Pest, and finally ending up in Jasz-Nagykun- Szolnok.

            According to the extensive diary of my husband's great-grandfather, who
            visited his relatives in Turocz in 1844, the land was very poor for
            agriculture, with potatoes being a main crop. This may help explain why so
            many left.

            It sounds like you have also visited the area. Did you get to see the castle
            at Sklabina? That was a highlight of our trip.

            Janet

            -----Original Message-----
            From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com] On
            Behalf Of Margo Smith
            Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:11 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

            Thank you for your suggestion, Janet.� Yes, I checked both Catholic and
            Lutheran church records for Slovenske Pravno and found only the daughter.�
            It could be an explanation.� The Lichners (father) were Lutheran.� Maybe I
            should look for an adjacent Lutheran parish and check that one.� The family
            lived in the hamlet of Kal'amenova, but attended church and school in
            Slovenske Pravno.

            --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

            From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
            Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 9:03 AM

            Hi Margo,

            In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed
            marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of the
            mother. Could that explain your data? Have you checked the records for both
            churches?

            Janet

            -----Original Message-----
            From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
            On
            Behalf Of Margo Smith
            Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:43 AM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

            Dobre rano Everyone!

            Janet's comments�about Turocz are right on.� It is a fascinating county in
            terms of its history, not to mention beautiful.� In addition, Slovenske
            Pravno is along an ancient trade route which extended from the Danube basin
            north into what is now Poland.

            RE: The "Durko" on the photo.� Could it be Jurko, which is a nickname for
            Juraj (George)?

            The LDS has microfilmed the "mixed marriage registers" from Slovenske Pravno
            which is a gold mine.� In this register, 1 spouse is Catholic and 1 is
            Lutheran.� People are identified by name, age, date of marriage, names and
            ages of children.� Multiple years available.� They are on the same reels
            with the church records.

            The family I am looking at in the mixed marriage registers has presented a
            dilemma.� In the 1860s, the family had 3 children:� Jan, Jozef, and Anna.��
            Only Anna appears with her parents in the register.� Why would only 1 of the
            children be listed?� The only thing I can think of is that Anna was
            Catholic, and the 2 sons�might have been�Lutherans.� (Yes, there were 3
            children who lived to adulthood -- other records verify that.)� Was it
            common to raise some children in 1 religion and other children in the
            other?� Among Anna's own children, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Catholic, and 1
            I don't know the religion.� Does anyone have any insight on this?

            Margo

            --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

            From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
            Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:34 PM

            Hi Liz and Anabeth,

            Rudno (Turoczrudno) is a tiny village just south of Slovenske Pravno. Its
            church records will be found with those from Slovenske Pravno.

            It should be very interesting to match and combine the Chicago church
            records with those from Slovakia. It should make for a very large and
            complex family tree. It will be a lot of work, but the results should be
            spectacular.

            Tur�cz was a very interesting county for its small size. There was a
            relatively high proportion of Germans there, more than its neighboring
            counties. It was also an important center for the Evangelical/ Lutheran
            church as well as for Slovak nationalism. Ironically, it was also the home
            of Lajos Kossuth�s family since the 13th century. Kossuth led Hungary�s
            1848-49 war of independence against Austria yet never recognized the
            strength and determination of Hungary�s Slovak minority to seek their own
            independence from Hungary.

            Tur�cz (Nagy Csepcs�ny) was the home of my husband�s ancestors, in the
            1700s, before they migrated south to the Hungarian Plain. I have had
            considerable difficulty tracing the family there. If either of you should
            happen to look at records from the 1700s and run into names like Kozlay,
            Kozlech, or Kozlik, or anything else beginning with �Kozl,� I would
            appreciate hearing.

            Janet

            Janet

            _____

            From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
            com]
            On
            Behalf Of Anabeth Dollins
            Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:33 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

            Hi, Liz --

            I spent some time looking at my Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church
            (Chicago) microfilms. Found a bunch of records on Kuka, Klein, and
            Svec families, which I'll send you as a separate email. There are lots
            and lots of Mizialkos and Zvonar family records -- I didn't copy any
            of those records since there are so many.

            In the records, the Klein family that you mentioned is from Rudno;
            Zuzanna's last name is spelled Derer, not Direr. And another of your
            Zuzannas is Fontani in the records, not Fontana.

            Interesting to note that while your Klein family and the one in my
            database are not the same, they're both from Rudno. Wonder whether
            they're related.

            Anabeth Dollins

            On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Elizabeth Tjomsland
            <e_tjomsland@ <mailto:e_tjomsland %40yahoo. com> yahoo.com> wrote:
            > Hello, my name is Liz. I joined this group recently, because I thought I
            > might get some pointers on my genealogy research. I'm a novice who has
            been
            > working from bits and pieces of information found in the paperwork of my
            > parents after they passed on. All the folks from previous generations are
            > gone, so there is no one left to ask. The following is what I do know at
            > this point.
            >
            > My paternal grandfather, Juraj Kuka (1885-1961), came from Slovenske
            > Pravno,Martin Turciansky Svaety. He was very certain that there was no
            > change in the surname spelling.
            > Parents: Juraj Kuka(1843-1905) and Suzanna Fontana(1859- 1941).
            > Siblings: Jan, Jozef (m. Irena Kollar), Amelia (m. Paul Podmajersky) ,
            > Suzanna (m. George Durkovic, I think).
            > My grandfather married Suzanna Klein(1889-1934) . Even though the name
            sounds
            > Germanic, she insisted that she was Slovak. Her parents were Jozef
            > Klein(1869-1934) and Suzanna Direr (1864-1942) and they supposedly had a
            farm
            > in Slovakia which was eventually confiscated by the Communists.
            >
            > My maternal grandmother, Alzbeta Zvonar,(1892- 1935) came from Brezova.
            > Parents: Martin Zvonar and Katarina Mizialko (1862-1929)
            > Siblings: Matej (1887-1887), Stefan (1888 - ?), Judita (1896-1902) and
            > Martin (1905 - ?).
            > My grandmother married Louis (Alois) Svec in Chicago. I know next to
            nothing
            > about him. He supposedly ran away from home at the age of 17, came to the
            > U.S. and had little contact with his family. His parents were Jozef Svec
            and
            > Mary Rovnanski.
            >
            > My maternal great grandmother was Katarina Mizialko from Brezova.
            > Parents: Stefan Mizialko(b.1820- ?) and Alzbeta Chvascula(b. 1822-?).
            > Siblings: Stefan (1847-?), Matej, Jan, and Suzanna 1856-?)(m Samuel Nosko)
            > She married Martin Zvonar in 1886, who apparently came to the U.S. on
            > several occasions to work the coal mines in Pennsylvania. She immigrated
            to
            > the U.S. after her husband died.
            >
            > Everyone that immigrated settled in Chicago or surrounding area and, with
            > the exception of Louis Svec and his parents, were Lutheran (Trinity Slovak
            > Lutheran Church).
            >
            > My dad's name was George Julius, however, on the back of a photograph, I
            see
            > that his mother wrote his name as "Durko". Is this indicative of
            something?
            > Also wrote the middle name of my uncle as "Ludwig" (Louis). Is this just a
            > dialect issue or ???? All the other "Georges" in his family were Juraj.
            >
            > I will welcome any and all comments.... .anything that might help me
            untangle
            > my roots.
            >
            > Many Thanks.....Regards, Liz
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Janet Kozlay
            Dear Margo, My husband s great-grandfather was an officer in the 1848-49 war, stationed at Komarom when the army was finally defeated, and escaped from Hungary
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 16, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Margo,

              My husband's great-grandfather was an officer in the 1848-49 war, stationed
              at Komarom when the army was finally defeated, and escaped from Hungary to
              the U.S. with a group of his fellow officers. He brought with him his “big
              book,“ which was not just a diary but also many memoirs, poetry, and
              fiction. He continued his diary through his first few years in America.
              Added to that was a huge amount of correspondence. Several years ago we had
              it all translated from Hungarian. It took two years two translate nearly
              1000 pages. It has been my intention to publish (on the Internet) the
              translations, to which I am adding extensive annotations. I worked on it
              steadily for several years, but I have been very bad at getting back to it.
              I got stuck when I came to some that had been written in German for which we
              did not have the translations. Well, they have now been done, so I don't
              have a good excuse any more. It's just so much more fun helping others with
              their research. I need to work on self-discipline and get the job done.
              There is very little in English that relates to the daily life of the
              well-to-do in 19th-century Hungary. It also gives insight into the
              relationship between the serfs and the estate managers and other interesting
              topics. (Included is some very racy stuff regarding sexual exploits, so racy
              that my translator didn't want to translate it in detail, which I insisted
              on. They were a very free-wheeling bunch about sex, both men and women.) It
              would be terribly sad if I never finished it.

              Of course I have also done a lot of work researching the family. But the
              transitional period between Turocz and Nograd is very hazy, mainly because
              relevant church records have been lost. Trying to make a connection is
              complicated also because the family used more than one name. I think the
              family was known as Kozlik and/or a form of Kozlay in Turocz, but so far I
              have found almost no firm connections. I have considered hiring Vladimir
              Bohinc, who says it would be an interesting project, but it would also be
              very expensive research.

              I certainly agree that that area of Slovakia is very beautiful. We drove up
              there from Hungary, and the mountains and forests were lovely.
              Great-grandfather's trip in 1844 was in mid-winter, which I can't imagine.
              He had to exchange his horses in Besztercebanya (Banska Bystrica) for ones
              that were familiar with mountainous terrain, and he did complain about the
              cold. Whatever made him choose that season for long-distance traveling is
              beyond me.

              How wonderful it is that you have been able to find relatives there today.
              I'm sure we will never be that fortunate. But I was surprised this year to
              discover descendants of great-grandfather Kozlay's mother, and they have
              worked out an extensive genealogy of the family. It was most interesting
              that although Kozlay's father and grandfather both married into that family,
              neither of the marriages appeared in the family tree. So I have been able to
              send them significant information.

              Is the book you recommended only in Slovak? I do not know the language at
              all, but I am always up for learning more.

              Best regards, Janet




              -----Original Message-----
              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Margo Smith
              Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:52 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family

              Janet, yes, there were a lot of Lichners in Turocz.  My husband's great aunt
              (an immigrant from Kal'amenova in the 1920s) told me that her Lichners (her
              mother's ancestors) had "come across the mountains after the Napoleonic
              Wars."  The 1715 tax list shows that there were Lichners in Turocz at that
              time, so it wouldn't surprise me if Aunt Anna's chronology was off.
               
              Yes, after the Turks were expelled, a bunch of folks from the north migrated
              south to occupy that vacated territory.  Most branches of my husband's
              family was in Turocz back into the 1600s and stayed there.  He has cousins
              there still.
               
              Lucky you to have the diary of your husband's great-grandfather!  Have you
              considered publishing it?
               
              Yes, I have visited Turocz (now Turiec) 3 times between 2003-2006.   The
              principal crop is cereal grain.  Increased logging in the forests of the
              Mala Fatras to the west.  Everyone, or so it seems, has a garden plot where
              they grow potatoes and other veggies.  I particularly liked seeing the apple
              trees growing along the roadsides -- good use of space.  No, I did not get
              to Sklabina, but we did visit the castles at Orava and Bojnice in adjacent
              counties -- and the ruins of Zniev in Turocz.  Next trip has the ruins of
              the castle at Blatnica on my itinerary because my husband has ancestors from
              there also.
               
              I wanted to visit Zniev because my husband's grandfather had told me about
              seeing them from Kal'amenova when he was growing up.  With binoculars, I
              searched unsuccessfully for the ruins from the valley floor.  Then I found a
              map of hiking trails which showed the location and way to the ruins.  Once I
              got up there I realized that the forest had grown up and obscured the ruins
              in the century between the time that the grandfather had lived in
              Kal'amenova and my trip. 
               
              Potatoes are a New World domesticate.  They were cultivated in Slovakia
              starting in about the 1770s in response to a famine.
               
              Check out Karol Rebro's book Ubarska regulacia Marie Terezie a poddanske
              upravy Jozefa II Na Slovensku.  You can get it on interlibrary loan.  If my
              memory is correct, there are tables which list the villages and whether they
              are good or poor land.  If you remind me when I get back to IL after Aug.
              12, I will look up your villages for you.  My recollection is that Turiec
              was entirely in the 3 best classes of land.
               
              Margo

              --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

              From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
              Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:00 AM






              Margo,

              Note in the Radix Index (www.radixindex. com) how many Lichners show up in
              villages in Turocz--Tot- Prona, Turocz-Szent- Marton, Zsambokret, Stubnya,
              even my village of interest, Nagy-Csepcseny. Then you see them show up in
              places to the south--Beszterceban ya, Selmecbanya, Balassagyarmat,
              Endrefalva. I have seen in my own research many, many families (both peasant
              and noble) from Turocz who moved south, often to Nograd. Most of this
              migration seemed to take place in the late 1700s and early 1800s. My
              husband's family was a part of this pattern, going first to Nograd, then to
              northern Pest, and finally ending up in Jasz-Nagykun- Szolnok.

              According to the extensive diary of my husband's great-grandfather, who
              visited his relatives in Turocz in 1844, the land was very poor for
              agriculture, with potatoes being a main crop. This may help explain why so
              many left.

              It sounds like you have also visited the area. Did you get to see the castle
              at Sklabina? That was a highlight of our trip.

              Janet

              -----Original Message-----
              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
              On
              Behalf Of Margo Smith
              Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:11 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

              Thank you for your suggestion, Janet.  Yes, I checked both Catholic and
              Lutheran church records for Slovenske Pravno and found only the daughter. 
              It could be an explanation.  The Lichners (father) were Lutheran.  Maybe I
              should look for an adjacent Lutheran parish and check that one.  The family
              lived in the hamlet of Kal'amenova, but attended church and school in
              Slovenske Pravno.

              --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

              From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
              Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 9:03 AM

              Hi Margo,

              In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed
              marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of the
              mother. Could that explain your data? Have you checked the records for both
              churches?

              Janet

              -----Original Message-----
              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
              com]
              On
              Behalf Of Margo Smith
              Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:43 AM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

              Dobre rano Everyone!
               
              Janet's comments about Turocz are right on.  It is a fascinating county in
              terms of its history, not to mention beautiful.  In addition, Slovenske
              Pravno is along an ancient trade route which extended from the Danube basin
              north into what is now Poland.
               
              RE: The "Durko" on the photo.  Could it be Jurko, which is a nickname for
              Juraj (George)?
               
              The LDS has microfilmed the "mixed marriage registers" from Slovenske Pravno
              which is a gold mine.  In this register, 1 spouse is Catholic and 1 is
              Lutheran.  People are identified by name, age, date of marriage, names and
              ages of children.  Multiple years available.  They are on the same reels
              with the church records.
               
              The family I am looking at in the mixed marriage registers has presented a
              dilemma.  In the 1860s, the family had 3 children:  Jan, Jozef, and Anna.  
              Only Anna appears with her parents in the register.  Why would only 1 of the
              children be listed?  The only thing I can think of is that Anna was
              Catholic, and the 2 sons might have been Lutherans.  (Yes, there were 3
              children who lived to adulthood -- other records verify that.)  Was it
              common to raise some children in 1 religion and other children in the
              other?  Among Anna's own children, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Catholic, and 1
              I don't know the religion.  Does anyone have any insight on this?
               
              Margo

              --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

              From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
              Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:34 PM

              Hi Liz and Anabeth,

              Rudno (Turoczrudno) is a tiny village just south of Slovenske Pravno. Its
              church records will be found with those from Slovenske Pravno.

              It should be very interesting to match and combine the Chicago church
              records with those from Slovakia. It should make for a very large and
              complex family tree. It will be a lot of work, but the results should be
              spectacular.

              Turócz was a very interesting county for its small size. There was a
              relatively high proportion of Germans there, more than its neighboring
              counties. It was also an important center for the Evangelical/ Lutheran
              church as well as for Slovak nationalism. Ironically, it was also the home
              of Lajos Kossuth’s family since the 13th century. Kossuth led Hungary’s
              1848-49 war of independence against Austria yet never recognized the
              strength and determination of Hungary’s Slovak minority to seek their own
              independence from Hungary.

              Turócz (Nagy Csepcsény) was the home of my husband’s ancestors, in the
              1700s, before they migrated south to the Hungarian Plain. I have had
              considerable difficulty tracing the family there. If either of you should
              happen to look at records from the 1700s and run into names like Kozlay,
              Kozlech, or Kozlik, or anything else beginning with “Kozl,” I would
              appreciate hearing.

              Janet

              Janet

              _____

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
              com]
              On
              Behalf Of Anabeth Dollins
              Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:33 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

              Hi, Liz --

              I spent some time looking at my Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church
              (Chicago) microfilms. Found a bunch of records on Kuka, Klein, and
              Svec families, which I'll send you as a separate email. There are lots
              and lots of Mizialkos and Zvonar family records -- I didn't copy any
              of those records since there are so many.

              In the records, the Klein family that you mentioned is from Rudno;
              Zuzanna's last name is spelled Derer, not Direr. And another of your
              Zuzannas is Fontani in the records, not Fontana.

              Interesting to note that while your Klein family and the one in my
              database are not the same, they're both from Rudno. Wonder whether
              they're related.

              Anabeth Dollins

              On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Elizabeth Tjomsland
              <e_tjomsland@ <mailto:e_tjomsland %40yahoo. com> yahoo.com> wrote:
              > Hello, my name is Liz. I joined this group recently, because I thought I
              > might get some pointers on my genealogy research. I'm a novice who has
              been
              > working from bits and pieces of information found in the paperwork of my
              > parents after they passed on. All the folks from previous generations are
              > gone, so there is no one left to ask. The following is what I do know at
              > this point.
              >
              > My paternal grandfather, Juraj Kuka (1885-1961), came from Slovenske
              > Pravno,Martin Turciansky Svaety. He was very certain that there was no
              > change in the surname spelling.
              > Parents: Juraj Kuka(1843-1905) and Suzanna Fontana(1859- 1941).
              > Siblings: Jan, Jozef (m. Irena Kollar), Amelia (m. Paul Podmajersky) ,
              > Suzanna (m. George Durkovic, I think).
              > My grandfather married Suzanna Klein(1889-1934) . Even though the name
              sounds
              > Germanic, she insisted that she was Slovak. Her parents were Jozef
              > Klein(1869-1934) and Suzanna Direr (1864-1942) and they supposedly had a
              farm
              > in Slovakia which was eventually confiscated by the Communists.
              >
              > My maternal grandmother, Alzbeta Zvonar,(1892- 1935) came from Brezova.
              > Parents: Martin Zvonar and Katarina Mizialko (1862-1929)
              > Siblings: Matej (1887-1887), Stefan (1888 - ?), Judita (1896-1902) and
              > Martin (1905 - ?).
              > My grandmother married Louis (Alois) Svec in Chicago. I know next to
              nothing
              > about him. He supposedly ran away from home at the age of 17, came to the
              > U.S. and had little contact with his family. His parents were Jozef Svec
              and
              > Mary Rovnanski.
              >
              > My maternal great grandmother was Katarina Mizialko from Brezova.
              > Parents: Stefan Mizialko(b.1820- ?) and Alzbeta Chvascula(b. 1822-?).
              > Siblings: Stefan (1847-?), Matej, Jan, and Suzanna 1856-?)(m Samuel Nosko)
              > She married Martin Zvonar in 1886, who apparently came to the U.S. on
              > several occasions to work the coal mines in Pennsylvania. She immigrated
              to
              > the U.S. after her husband died.
              >
              > Everyone that immigrated settled in Chicago or surrounding area and, with
              > the exception of Louis Svec and his parents, were Lutheran (Trinity Slovak
              > Lutheran Church).
              >
              > My dad's name was George Julius, however, on the back of a photograph, I
              see
              > that his mother wrote his name as "Durko". Is this indicative of
              something?
              > Also wrote the middle name of my uncle as "Ludwig" (Louis). Is this just a
              > dialect issue or ???? All the other "Georges" in his family were Juraj.
              >
              > I will welcome any and all comments.... .anything that might help me
              untangle
              > my roots.
              >
              > Many Thanks.....Regards, Liz
              >
              >

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            • Margo Smith
              Janet, the diary you have is a valuable and precious resource!  You must keep your focus on finishing this project.  (Sometimes, I need to be reminded
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 17, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Janet, the "diary" you have is a valuable and precious resource!� You must keep your focus on finishing this project.� (Sometimes, I need to be reminded about focus also.)

                Yes, Rebro's book is in Slovak.� And I don't read the language.� What I did was go through the book page by page and photocopy all pages that mentioned my villages and a few other topics I could recognize.� When a cousin visited from SK, I cornered him and pleaded that he read (translate) for me.� He tired of that pretty quickly, so he took my photocopies and had them translated.� Nagy Csepcin is not one of my villages, but I did photocopy all the charts, so I' ll�look for that when I get� back to IL and let you know.� You probably should remind me the middle of next month.

                Are you familiar with the 1730s maps by Samuel Mikovini?� He did 2 maps of Turocz.� There is Nagy Csepcin!� For each of the villages he draws in the individual farmsteads -- I'm pretty certain that he does NOT have the actual # of farmsteads per village.� E.g. Dubove was always substantially larger than a lot of the other villages in the southern part of the valley, but is not shown on the map as being a lot larger.� What I just noticed about N-C is that behind the farmsteads he has drawn in what looks like an orchard.� It is the only village with an orchard.� (Check the online tax list for 1715 for N-C.� Look at the description after the list of taxables and see if the village description mentions an orchard.)

                Yes, name changes are frustrating.� A lot of my folks had aliases in the 1700s.� You have to check every source�for both the surname and the alias -- and you have to find at least 1 record that lists both the surname and the alias in the same record to know that the names are linked.� I'm still struggling with the alternate spellings of the names of the godparents and marriage witnesses, e.g. Macz, Matz, Mac are all the same person.� There are relatively few surnames where the spelling is standardized (there is Hungarian, Slovak, and Latin).

                Yes, my life changed forever when the Slovaks came into my life in 2003.

                Keep focused!

                Margo�

                --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

                From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
                Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 12:24 PM






                Dear Margo,

                My husband's great-grandfather was an officer in the 1848-49 war, stationed
                at Komarom when the army was finally defeated, and escaped from Hungary to
                the U.S. with a group of his fellow officers. He brought with him his �big
                book,� which was not just a diary but also many memoirs, poetry, and
                fiction. He continued his diary through his first few years in America.
                Added to that was a huge amount of correspondence. Several years ago we had
                it all translated from Hungarian. It took two years two translate nearly
                1000 pages. It has been my intention to publish (on the Internet) the
                translations, to which I am adding extensive annotations. I worked on it
                steadily for several years, but I have been very bad at getting back to it.
                I got stuck when I came to some that had been written in German for which we
                did not have the translations. Well, they have now been done, so I don't
                have a good excuse any more. It's just so much more fun helping others with
                their research. I need to work on self-discipline and get the job done.
                There is very little in English that relates to the daily life of the
                well-to-do in 19th-century Hungary. It also gives insight into the
                relationship between the serfs and the estate managers and other interesting
                topics. (Included is some very racy stuff regarding sexual exploits, so racy
                that my translator didn't want to translate it in detail, which I insisted
                on. They were a very free-wheeling bunch about sex, both men and women.) It
                would be terribly sad if I never finished it.

                Of course I have also done a lot of work researching the family. But the
                transitional period between Turocz and Nograd is very hazy, mainly because
                relevant church records have been lost. Trying to make a connection is
                complicated also because the family used more than one name. I think the
                family was known as Kozlik and/or a form of Kozlay in Turocz, but so far I
                have found almost no firm connections. I have considered hiring Vladimir
                Bohinc, who says it would be an interesting project, but it would also be
                very expensive research.

                I certainly agree that that area of Slovakia is very beautiful. We drove up
                there from Hungary, and the mountains and forests were lovely.
                Great-grandfather' s trip in 1844 was in mid-winter, which I can't imagine.
                He had to exchange his horses in Besztercebanya (Banska Bystrica) for ones
                that were familiar with mountainous terrain, and he did complain about the
                cold. Whatever made him choose that season for long-distance traveling is
                beyond me.

                How wonderful it is that you have been able to find relatives there today.
                I'm sure we will never be that fortunate. But I was surprised this year to
                discover descendants of great-grandfather Kozlay's mother, and they have
                worked out an extensive genealogy of the family. It was most interesting
                that although Kozlay's father and grandfather both married into that family,
                neither of the marriages appeared in the family tree. So I have been able to
                send them significant information.

                Is the book you recommended only in Slovak? I do not know the language at
                all, but I am always up for learning more.

                Best regards, Janet


                -----Original Message-----
                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com] On
                Behalf Of Margo Smith
                Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:52 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family

                Janet, yes, there were a lot of Lichners in Turocz.� My husband's great aunt
                (an immigrant from Kal'amenova in the 1920s) told me that her Lichners (her
                mother's ancestors) had "come across the mountains after the Napoleonic
                Wars."� The 1715 tax list shows that there were Lichners in Turocz at that
                time, so it wouldn't surprise me if Aunt Anna's chronology was off.

                Yes, after the Turks were expelled, a bunch of folks from the north migrated
                south to occupy that vacated territory.� Most branches of my husband's
                family was in Turocz back into the 1600s and stayed there.� He has cousins
                there still.

                Lucky you to have the diary of your husband's great-grandfather!� Have you
                considered publishing it?

                Yes, I have visited Turocz (now Turiec) 3 times between 2003-2006.�� The
                principal crop is cereal grain.� Increased logging in the forests of the
                Mala Fatras to the west.� Everyone, or so it seems, has a garden plot where
                they grow potatoes and other veggies.� I particularly liked seeing the apple
                trees growing along the roadsides -- good use of space.� No, I did not get
                to Sklabina, but we did visit the castles at Orava and Bojnice in adjacent
                counties -- and the ruins of Zniev in Turocz.� Next trip has the ruins of
                the castle at Blatnica on my itinerary because my husband has ancestors from
                there also.

                I wanted to visit Zniev because my husband's grandfather had told me about
                seeing them from Kal'amenova when he was growing up.� With binoculars, I
                searched unsuccessfully for the ruins from the valley floor.� Then I found a
                map of hiking trails which showed the location and way to the ruins.� Once I
                got up there I realized that the forest had grown up and obscured the ruins
                in the century between the time that the grandfather had lived in
                Kal'amenova and my trip.�

                Potatoes are a New World domesticate.� They were cultivated in Slovakia
                starting in about the 1770s in response to a famine.

                Check out Karol Rebro's book Ubarska regulacia Marie Terezie a poddanske
                upravy Jozefa II Na Slovensku.� You can get it on interlibrary loan.� If my
                memory is correct, there are tables which list the villages and whether they
                are good or poor land.� If you remind me when I get back to IL after Aug.
                12, I will look up your villages for you.� My recollection is that Turiec
                was entirely in the 3 best classes of land.

                Margo

                --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:00 AM

                Margo,

                Note in the Radix Index (www.radixindex. com) how many Lichners show up in
                villages in Turocz--Tot- Prona, Turocz-Szent- Marton, Zsambokret, Stubnya,
                even my village of interest, Nagy-Csepcseny. Then you see them show up in
                places to the south--Beszterceban ya, Selmecbanya, Balassagyarmat,
                Endrefalva. I have seen in my own research many, many families (both peasant
                and noble) from Turocz who moved south, often to Nograd. Most of this
                migration seemed to take place in the late 1700s and early 1800s. My
                husband's family was a part of this pattern, going first to Nograd, then to
                northern Pest, and finally ending up in Jasz-Nagykun- Szolnok.

                According to the extensive diary of my husband's great-grandfather, who
                visited his relatives in Turocz in 1844, the land was very poor for
                agriculture, with potatoes being a main crop. This may help explain why so
                many left.

                It sounds like you have also visited the area. Did you get to see the castle
                at Sklabina? That was a highlight of our trip.

                Janet

                -----Original Message-----
                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
                On
                Behalf Of Margo Smith
                Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:11 PM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

                Thank you for your suggestion, Janet.� Yes, I checked both Catholic and
                Lutheran church records for Slovenske Pravno and found only the daughter.�
                It could be an explanation.� The Lichners (father) were Lutheran.� Maybe I
                should look for an adjacent Lutheran parish and check that one.� The family
                lived in the hamlet of Kal'amenova, but attended church and school in
                Slovenske Pravno.

                --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 9:03 AM

                Hi Margo,

                In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed
                marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of the
                mother. Could that explain your data? Have you checked the records for both
                churches?

                Janet

                -----Original Message-----
                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                com]
                On
                Behalf Of Margo Smith
                Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:43 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

                Dobre rano Everyone!

                Janet's comments�about Turocz are right on.� It is a fascinating county in
                terms of its history, not to mention beautiful.� In addition, Slovenske
                Pravno is along an ancient trade route which extended from the Danube basin
                north into what is now Poland.

                RE: The "Durko" on the photo.� Could it be Jurko, which is a nickname for
                Juraj (George)?

                The LDS has microfilmed the "mixed marriage registers" from Slovenske Pravno
                which is a gold mine.� In this register, 1 spouse is Catholic and 1 is
                Lutheran.� People are identified by name, age, date of marriage, names and
                ages of children.� Multiple years available.� They are on the same reels
                with the church records.

                The family I am looking at in the mixed marriage registers has presented a
                dilemma.� In the 1860s, the family had 3 children:� Jan, Jozef, and Anna.��
                Only Anna appears with her parents in the register.� Why would only 1 of the
                children be listed?� The only thing I can think of is that Anna was
                Catholic, and the 2 sons�might have been�Lutherans.� (Yes, there were 3
                children who lived to adulthood -- other records verify that.)� Was it
                common to raise some children in 1 religion and other children in the
                other?� Among Anna's own children, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Catholic, and 1
                I don't know the religion.� Does anyone have any insight on this?

                Margo

                --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:34 PM

                Hi Liz and Anabeth,

                Rudno (Turoczrudno) is a tiny village just south of Slovenske Pravno. Its
                church records will be found with those from Slovenske Pravno.

                It should be very interesting to match and combine the Chicago church
                records with those from Slovakia. It should make for a very large and
                complex family tree. It will be a lot of work, but the results should be
                spectacular.

                Tur�cz was a very interesting county for its small size. There was a
                relatively high proportion of Germans there, more than its neighboring
                counties. It was also an important center for the Evangelical/ Lutheran
                church as well as for Slovak nationalism. Ironically, it was also the home
                of Lajos Kossuth�s family since the 13th century. Kossuth led Hungary�s
                1848-49 war of independence against Austria yet never recognized the
                strength and determination of Hungary�s Slovak minority to seek their own
                independence from Hungary.

                Tur�cz (Nagy Csepcs�ny) was the home of my husband�s ancestors, in the
                1700s, before they migrated south to the Hungarian Plain. I have had
                considerable difficulty tracing the family there. If either of you should
                happen to look at records from the 1700s and run into names like Kozlay,
                Kozlech, or Kozlik, or anything else beginning with �Kozl,� I would
                appreciate hearing.

                Janet

                Janet

                _____

                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                com]
                On
                Behalf Of Anabeth Dollins
                Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:33 PM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

                Hi, Liz --

                I spent some time looking at my Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church
                (Chicago) microfilms. Found a bunch of records on Kuka, Klein, and
                Svec families, which I'll send you as a separate email. There are lots
                and lots of Mizialkos and Zvonar family records -- I didn't copy any
                of those records since there are so many.

                In the records, the Klein family that you mentioned is from Rudno;
                Zuzanna's last name is spelled Derer, not Direr. And another of your
                Zuzannas is Fontani in the records, not Fontana.

                Interesting to note that while your Klein family and the one in my
                database are not the same, they're both from Rudno. Wonder whether
                they're related.

                Anabeth Dollins

                On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Elizabeth Tjomsland
                <e_tjomsland@ <mailto:e_tjomsland %40yahoo. com> yahoo.com> wrote:
                > Hello, my name is Liz. I joined this group recently, because I thought I
                > might get some pointers on my genealogy research. I'm a novice who has
                been
                > working from bits and pieces of information found in the paperwork of my
                > parents after they passed on. All the folks from previous generations are
                > gone, so there is no one left to ask. The following is what I do know at
                > this point.
                >
                > My paternal grandfather, Juraj Kuka (1885-1961), came from Slovenske
                > Pravno,Martin Turciansky Svaety. He was very certain that there was no
                > change in the surname spelling.
                > Parents: Juraj Kuka(1843-1905) and Suzanna Fontana(1859- 1941).
                > Siblings: Jan, Jozef (m. Irena Kollar), Amelia (m. Paul Podmajersky) ,
                > Suzanna (m. George Durkovic, I think).
                > My grandfather married Suzanna Klein(1889-1934) . Even though the name
                sounds
                > Germanic, she insisted that she was Slovak. Her parents were Jozef
                > Klein(1869-1934) and Suzanna Direr (1864-1942) and they supposedly had a
                farm
                > in Slovakia which was eventually confiscated by the Communists.
                >
                > My maternal grandmother, Alzbeta Zvonar,(1892- 1935) came from Brezova.
                > Parents: Martin Zvonar and Katarina Mizialko (1862-1929)
                > Siblings: Matej (1887-1887), Stefan (1888 - ?), Judita (1896-1902) and
                > Martin (1905 - ?).
                > My grandmother married Louis (Alois) Svec in Chicago. I know next to
                nothing
                > about him. He supposedly ran away from home at the age of 17, came to the
                > U.S. and had little contact with his family. His parents were Jozef Svec
                and
                > Mary Rovnanski.
                >
                > My maternal great grandmother was Katarina Mizialko from Brezova.
                > Parents: Stefan Mizialko(b.1820- ?) and Alzbeta Chvascula(b. 1822-?).
                > Siblings: Stefan (1847-?), Matej, Jan, and Suzanna 1856-?)(m Samuel Nosko)
                > She married Martin Zvonar in 1886, who apparently came to the U.S. on
                > several occasions to work the coal mines in Pennsylvania. She immigrated
                to
                > the U.S. after her husband died.
                >
                > Everyone that immigrated settled in Chicago or surrounding area and, with
                > the exception of Louis Svec and his parents, were Lutheran (Trinity Slovak
                > Lutheran Church).
                >
                > My dad's name was George Julius, however, on the back of a photograph, I
                see
                > that his mother wrote his name as "Durko". Is this indicative of
                something?
                > Also wrote the middle name of my uncle as "Ludwig" (Louis). Is this just a
                > dialect issue or ???? All the other "Georges" in his family were Juraj.
                >
                > I will welcome any and all comments.... .anything that might help me
                untangle
                > my roots.
                >
                > Many Thanks.....Regards, Liz
                >
                >

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              • Janet Kozlay
                Dear Margo, I am totally unfamiliar with Samuel Mikovini s maps. This news is very exciting. Where are the maps available? Does he include the names of the
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 18, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Margo,

                  I am totally unfamiliar with Samuel Mikovini's maps. This news is very
                  exciting. Where are the maps available? Does he include the names of the
                  owners of the farmsteads? That would be absolutely too good to be true, so I
                  am not holding my breath.

                  When Kozlay made his trip to Turocz in 1844 he said he was surprised to
                  learn that the land his family had owned in Nagy Csepcseny was still called
                  “Kozlayo csaska,“ meaning Kozlay property. It is this one statement that has
                  made me believe there might be some record of real estate transactions when
                  the family left for the south. There might also be court records. But that
                  would take someone with much better access to records than is available to
                  us on microfilm. Vladimir Bohinc has told me that he would have such access.


                  Court and official county records were very rich when looking for
                  information about the family in Jasz-Nagykun-Szolnok megye. Thanks to my
                  good friend Lajos Reich, in Budapest, we received a five-page report on what
                  was found there. He is a frequent contributor to both Slovak and Hungarian
                  message boards and forums and is an invaluable resource. Because he had a
                  high governmental position during the Communist era, he knows important
                  people all over Hungary, and he knows how to gently twist arms to get
                  information.

                  I strongly suspect that none of the family was left behind when they moved.
                  He did not mention meeting with anyone there from that side of the family.
                  In fact, all of his visiting was with relatives of his step-mother,
                  Zsuzsanna Ruttkay, who was also related to the Kossuths through her own
                  step-mother, whom he also visited. Her own mother was a Szocsovszky, but he
                  never mentioned that name either. Those families, of course, were all
                  nobles, dating way back in Turocz.

                  He stated very clearly, several times, that he descended from “an old noble
                  family." Yet I have not seen the name in listings of Turocz nobility. There
                  are very, very few references in any of the church records to Kozlay (and
                  variations) or Kozlik. Most of them appear only as witnesses, which of
                  course are genealogically pretty useless. Yet the “Kozlay“ entries suggest
                  nobility (D., N., or D.N.), while the “Kozlik“ ones do not. There is a
                  single intriguing 1792 death notice in Ivancina for “Joannes Kozik, lanio
                  Lovinobanensis,“ age 47. Ivancina was the church for residents of Nagy
                  Csepcseny. The notice states that he died in the baths at Stubnya! He is
                  clearly related, as the Koziks lived in Lovinobana (Lonyabanya) in Nograd
                  megye, and they were butchers (lanio). There seems to be little reason for
                  this notice to appear in the Ivancina records unless he had been born there
                  and was perhaps visiting relatives at the time. Yet I find no firm birth
                  record for him. There was a Johannes, son of Michaelis Kozlik, baptized
                  there in 1752, but this is seven years off--unless his age at death was
                  misstated.

                  The marriage record for the father of great-grandfather Kozlay says that his
                  father was Samuel. The only reference I have found for Samuel (lanio) was a
                  death notice in Szirak (in Nograd) that said he died in 1797, age 38, and
                  was born in Szirak. Yet the diary says that it was his grandfather who moved
                  from Turocz to the “Hungarian plain“ during the reign of Maria Teresia. So
                  it may be an error to have said he was born in Szirak.

                  Were Samuel and Johannes brothers? Unfortunately, it is the early records
                  for Lovinobana/Lonyabanya that are missing. They likely could have answered
                  these many questions. But we have to work with what we have.

                  Have you ever run into the name Murin? There is a marriage record in
                  Ivancina for Anna Kozljk and Georgius Murin of Toth-Pronensis in 1741.

                  Those old records are so hard to read! But I have been through them many
                  times, and I don't think I've missed anything. There are lots of Kozols, but
                  I don't think they are related. There are way too many of them.

                  I hope this hasn't been too boring. Obviously this has been a great source
                  of frustration. I have tried to verify everything in the diary, and for the
                  most part I have been successful. But the issue of whether the family was in
                  fact noble and when and who made the move from Turocz to Nograd remains an
                  unsolved mystery. Were Kozlay and Kozlik the same? Importantly, I found two
                  entries for Samuel in Szirak, married to Susanna Massanyi, that used the
                  Kozlay name: witnesses to a baptism, Samuel Kozlay and Susanna Massanyi in
                  1795, and the death of Susanna Massanyi, widow of Samuel Kozele, in 1800.
                  These were great-grandfather Kozlay's grandparents. This matches the entry
                  for the death of Samuel Kozik in 1797. This seems to imply that both names
                  were used when they lived in Nograd! Yet the Kozlay name was not resurrected
                  until great-grandfather Kozlay began using it, probably in the 1840s.

                  Why do the Kozlay entries imply nobility and the Kozliks do not? Were they
                  butchers in Turocz also?

                  If your eyes glaze over during all this, that's all right. But it helps me
                  to pull my data together and organize what I have. It also helps me to
                  figure out what information I need to send to Vladimir if and when I decide
                  to hire him.

                  Thank you for urging me to get back to the book. If I have a legacy at all,
                  it will be that book. But that truly will mean cutting back severely on the
                  research I am doing for others, which is so much fun!

                  Please let me know about the maps.

                  Best regards,
                  Janet





                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Margo Smith
                  Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:36 PM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family

                  Janet, the "diary" you have is a valuable and precious resource!  You must
                  keep your focus on finishing this project.  (Sometimes, I need to be
                  reminded about focus also.)
                   
                  Yes, Rebro's book is in Slovak.  And I don't read the language.  What I did
                  was go through the book page by page and photocopy all pages that mentioned
                  my villages and a few other topics I could recognize.  When a cousin visited
                  from SK, I cornered him and pleaded that he read (translate) for me.  He
                  tired of that pretty quickly, so he took my photocopies and had them
                  translated.  Nagy Csepcin is not one of my villages, but I did photocopy all
                  the charts, so I' ll look for that when I get  back to IL and let you know. 
                  You probably should remind me the middle of next month.
                   
                  Are you familiar with the 1730s maps by Samuel Mikovini?  He did 2 maps of
                  Turocz.  There is Nagy Csepcin!  For each of the villages he draws in the
                  individual farmsteads -- I'm pretty certain that he does NOT have the actual
                  # of farmsteads per village.  E.g. Dubove was always substantially larger
                  than a lot of the other villages in the southern part of the valley, but is
                  not shown on the map as being a lot larger.  What I just noticed about N-C
                  is that behind the farmsteads he has drawn in what looks like an orchard. 
                  It is the only village with an orchard.  (Check the online tax list for 1715
                  for N-C.  Look at the description after the list of taxables and see if the
                  village description mentions an orchard.)
                   
                  Yes, name changes are frustrating.  A lot of my folks had aliases in the
                  1700s.  You have to check every source for both the surname and the alias --
                  and you have to find at least 1 record that lists both the surname and the
                  alias in the same record to know that the names are linked.  I'm still
                  struggling with the alternate spellings of the names of the godparents and
                  marriage witnesses, e.g. Macz, Matz, Mac are all the same person.  There are
                  relatively few surnames where the spelling is standardized (there is
                  Hungarian, Slovak, and Latin).
                   
                  Yes, my life changed forever when the Slovaks came into my life in 2003.
                   
                  Keep focused!
                   
                  Margo 

                  --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

                  From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 12:24 PM






                  Dear Margo,

                  My husband's great-grandfather was an officer in the 1848-49 war, stationed
                  at Komarom when the army was finally defeated, and escaped from Hungary to
                  the U.S. with a group of his fellow officers. He brought with him his “big
                  book,“ which was not just a diary but also many memoirs, poetry, and
                  fiction. He continued his diary through his first few years in America.
                  Added to that was a huge amount of correspondence. Several years ago we had
                  it all translated from Hungarian. It took two years two translate nearly
                  1000 pages. It has been my intention to publish (on the Internet) the
                  translations, to which I am adding extensive annotations. I worked on it
                  steadily for several years, but I have been very bad at getting back to it.
                  I got stuck when I came to some that had been written in German for which we
                  did not have the translations. Well, they have now been done, so I don't
                  have a good excuse any more. It's just so much more fun helping others with
                  their research. I need to work on self-discipline and get the job done.
                  There is very little in English that relates to the daily life of the
                  well-to-do in 19th-century Hungary. It also gives insight into the
                  relationship between the serfs and the estate managers and other interesting
                  topics. (Included is some very racy stuff regarding sexual exploits, so racy
                  that my translator didn't want to translate it in detail, which I insisted
                  on. They were a very free-wheeling bunch about sex, both men and women.) It
                  would be terribly sad if I never finished it.

                  Of course I have also done a lot of work researching the family. But the
                  transitional period between Turocz and Nograd is very hazy, mainly because
                  relevant church records have been lost. Trying to make a connection is
                  complicated also because the family used more than one name. I think the
                  family was known as Kozlik and/or a form of Kozlay in Turocz, but so far I
                  have found almost no firm connections. I have considered hiring Vladimir
                  Bohinc, who says it would be an interesting project, but it would also be
                  very expensive research.

                  I certainly agree that that area of Slovakia is very beautiful. We drove up
                  there from Hungary, and the mountains and forests were lovely.
                  Great-grandfather' s trip in 1844 was in mid-winter, which I can't imagine.
                  He had to exchange his horses in Besztercebanya (Banska Bystrica) for ones
                  that were familiar with mountainous terrain, and he did complain about the
                  cold. Whatever made him choose that season for long-distance traveling is
                  beyond me.

                  How wonderful it is that you have been able to find relatives there today.
                  I'm sure we will never be that fortunate. But I was surprised this year to
                  discover descendants of great-grandfather Kozlay's mother, and they have
                  worked out an extensive genealogy of the family. It was most interesting
                  that although Kozlay's father and grandfather both married into that family,
                  neither of the marriages appeared in the family tree. So I have been able to
                  send them significant information.

                  Is the book you recommended only in Slovak? I do not know the language at
                  all, but I am always up for learning more.

                  Best regards, Janet


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
                  On
                  Behalf Of Margo Smith
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:52 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family

                  Janet, yes, there were a lot of Lichners in Turocz.  My husband's great aunt
                  (an immigrant from Kal'amenova in the 1920s) told me that her Lichners (her
                  mother's ancestors) had "come across the mountains after the Napoleonic
                  Wars."  The 1715 tax list shows that there were Lichners in Turocz at that
                  time, so it wouldn't surprise me if Aunt Anna's chronology was off.
                   
                  Yes, after the Turks were expelled, a bunch of folks from the north migrated
                  south to occupy that vacated territory.  Most branches of my husband's
                  family was in Turocz back into the 1600s and stayed there.  He has cousins
                  there still.
                   
                  Lucky you to have the diary of your husband's great-grandfather!  Have you
                  considered publishing it?
                   
                  Yes, I have visited Turocz (now Turiec) 3 times between 2003-2006.   The
                  principal crop is cereal grain.  Increased logging in the forests of the
                  Mala Fatras to the west.  Everyone, or so it seems, has a garden plot where
                  they grow potatoes and other veggies.  I particularly liked seeing the apple
                  trees growing along the roadsides -- good use of space.  No, I did not get
                  to Sklabina, but we did visit the castles at Orava and Bojnice in adjacent
                  counties -- and the ruins of Zniev in Turocz.  Next trip has the ruins of
                  the castle at Blatnica on my itinerary because my husband has ancestors from
                  there also.
                   
                  I wanted to visit Zniev because my husband's grandfather had told me about
                  seeing them from Kal'amenova when he was growing up.  With binoculars, I
                  searched unsuccessfully for the ruins from the valley floor.  Then I found a
                  map of hiking trails which showed the location and way to the ruins.  Once I
                  got up there I realized that the forest had grown up and obscured the ruins
                  in the century between the time that the grandfather had lived in
                  Kal'amenova and my trip. 
                   
                  Potatoes are a New World domesticate.  They were cultivated in Slovakia
                  starting in about the 1770s in response to a famine.
                   
                  Check out Karol Rebro's book Ubarska regulacia Marie Terezie a poddanske
                  upravy Jozefa II Na Slovensku.  You can get it on interlibrary loan.  If my
                  memory is correct, there are tables which list the villages and whether they
                  are good or poor land.  If you remind me when I get back to IL after Aug.
                  12, I will look up your villages for you.  My recollection is that Turiec
                  was entirely in the 3 best classes of land.
                   
                  Margo

                  --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                  From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:00 AM

                  Margo,

                  Note in the Radix Index (www.radixindex. com) how many Lichners show up in
                  villages in Turocz--Tot- Prona, Turocz-Szent- Marton, Zsambokret, Stubnya,
                  even my village of interest, Nagy-Csepcseny. Then you see them show up in
                  places to the south--Beszterceban ya, Selmecbanya, Balassagyarmat,
                  Endrefalva. I have seen in my own research many, many families (both peasant
                  and noble) from Turocz who moved south, often to Nograd. Most of this
                  migration seemed to take place in the late 1700s and early 1800s. My
                  husband's family was a part of this pattern, going first to Nograd, then to
                  northern Pest, and finally ending up in Jasz-Nagykun- Szolnok.

                  According to the extensive diary of my husband's great-grandfather, who
                  visited his relatives in Turocz in 1844, the land was very poor for
                  agriculture, with potatoes being a main crop. This may help explain why so
                  many left.

                  It sounds like you have also visited the area. Did you get to see the castle
                  at Sklabina? That was a highlight of our trip.

                  Janet

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                  com]
                  On
                  Behalf Of Margo Smith
                  Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:11 PM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

                  Thank you for your suggestion, Janet.  Yes, I checked both Catholic and
                  Lutheran church records for Slovenske Pravno and found only the daughter. 
                  It could be an explanation.  The Lichners (father) were Lutheran.  Maybe I
                  should look for an adjacent Lutheran parish and check that one.  The family
                  lived in the hamlet of Kal'amenova, but attended church and school in
                  Slovenske Pravno.

                  --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                  From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 9:03 AM

                  Hi Margo,

                  In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed
                  marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of the
                  mother. Could that explain your data? Have you checked the records for both
                  churches?

                  Janet

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                  com]
                  On
                  Behalf Of Margo Smith
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:43 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

                  Dobre rano Everyone!
                   
                  Janet's comments about Turocz are right on.  It is a fascinating county in
                  terms of its history, not to mention beautiful.  In addition, Slovenske
                  Pravno is along an ancient trade route which extended from the Danube basin
                  north into what is now Poland.
                   
                  RE: The "Durko" on the photo.  Could it be Jurko, which is a nickname for
                  Juraj (George)?
                   
                  The LDS has microfilmed the "mixed marriage registers" from Slovenske Pravno
                  which is a gold mine.  In this register, 1 spouse is Catholic and 1 is
                  Lutheran.  People are identified by name, age, date of marriage, names and
                  ages of children.  Multiple years available.  They are on the same reels
                  with the church records.
                   
                  The family I am looking at in the mixed marriage registers has presented a
                  dilemma.  In the 1860s, the family had 3 children:  Jan, Jozef, and Anna.  
                  Only Anna appears with her parents in the register.  Why would only 1 of the
                  children be listed?  The only thing I can think of is that Anna was
                  Catholic, and the 2 sons might have been Lutherans.  (Yes, there were 3
                  children who lived to adulthood -- other records verify that.)  Was it
                  common to raise some children in 1 religion and other children in the
                  other?  Among Anna's own children, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Catholic, and 1
                  I don't know the religion.  Does anyone have any insight on this?
                   
                  Margo

                  --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                  From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:34 PM

                  Hi Liz and Anabeth,

                  Rudno (Turoczrudno) is a tiny village just south of Slovenske Pravno. Its
                  church records will be found with those from Slovenske Pravno.

                  It should be very interesting to match and combine the Chicago church
                  records with those from Slovakia. It should make for a very large and
                  complex family tree. It will be a lot of work, but the results should be
                  spectacular.

                  Turócz was a very interesting county for its small size. There was a
                  relatively high proportion of Germans there, more than its neighboring
                  counties. It was also an important center for the Evangelical/ Lutheran
                  church as well as for Slovak nationalism. Ironically, it was also the home
                  of Lajos Kossuth’s family since the 13th century. Kossuth led Hungary’s
                  1848-49 war of independence against Austria yet never recognized the
                  strength and determination of Hungary’s Slovak minority to seek their own
                  independence from Hungary.

                  Turócz (Nagy Csepcsény) was the home of my husband’s ancestors, in the
                  1700s, before they migrated south to the Hungarian Plain. I have had
                  considerable difficulty tracing the family there. If either of you should
                  happen to look at records from the 1700s and run into names like Kozlay,
                  Kozlech, or Kozlik, or anything else beginning with “Kozl,” I would
                  appreciate hearing.

                  Janet

                  Janet

                  _____

                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                  com]
                  On
                  Behalf Of Anabeth Dollins
                  Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:33 PM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

                  Hi, Liz --

                  I spent some time looking at my Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church
                  (Chicago) microfilms. Found a bunch of records on Kuka, Klein, and
                  Svec families, which I'll send you as a separate email. There are lots
                  and lots of Mizialkos and Zvonar family records -- I didn't copy any
                  of those records since there are so many.

                  In the records, the Klein family that you mentioned is from Rudno;
                  Zuzanna's last name is spelled Derer, not Direr. And another of your
                  Zuzannas is Fontani in the records, not Fontana.

                  Interesting to note that while your Klein family and the one in my
                  database are not the same, they're both from Rudno. Wonder whether
                  they're related.

                  Anabeth Dollins

                  On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Elizabeth Tjomsland
                  <e_tjomsland@ <mailto:e_tjomsland %40yahoo. com> yahoo.com> wrote:
                  > Hello, my name is Liz. I joined this group recently, because I thought I
                  > might get some pointers on my genealogy research. I'm a novice who has
                  been
                  > working from bits and pieces of information found in the paperwork of my
                  > parents after they passed on. All the folks from previous generations are
                  > gone, so there is no one left to ask. The following is what I do know at
                  > this point.
                  >
                  > My paternal grandfather, Juraj Kuka (1885-1961), came from Slovenske
                  > Pravno,Martin Turciansky Svaety. He was very certain that there was no
                  > change in the surname spelling.
                  > Parents: Juraj Kuka(1843-1905) and Suzanna Fontana(1859- 1941).
                  > Siblings: Jan, Jozef (m. Irena Kollar), Amelia (m. Paul Podmajersky) ,
                  > Suzanna (m. George Durkovic, I think).
                  > My grandfather married Suzanna Klein(1889-1934) . Even though the name
                  sounds
                  > Germanic, she insisted that she was Slovak. Her parents were Jozef
                  > Klein(1869-1934) and Suzanna Direr (1864-1942) and they supposedly had a
                  farm
                  > in Slovakia which was eventually confiscated by the Communists.
                  >
                  > My maternal grandmother, Alzbeta Zvonar,(1892- 1935) came from Brezova.
                  > Parents: Martin Zvonar and Katarina Mizialko (1862-1929)
                  > Siblings: Matej (1887-1887), Stefan (1888 - ?), Judita (1896-1902) and
                  > Martin (1905 - ?).
                  > My grandmother married Louis (Alois) Svec in Chicago. I know next to
                  nothing
                  > about him. He supposedly ran away from home at the age of 17, came to the
                  > U.S. and had little contact with his family. His parents were Jozef Svec
                  and
                  > Mary Rovnanski.
                  >
                  > My maternal great grandmother was Katarina Mizialko from Brezova.
                  > Parents: Stefan Mizialko(b.1820- ?) and Alzbeta Chvascula(b. 1822-?).
                  > Siblings: Stefan (1847-?), Matej, Jan, and Suzanna 1856-?)(m Samuel Nosko)
                  > She married Martin Zvonar in 1886, who apparently came to the U.S. on
                  > several occasions to work the coal mines in Pennsylvania. She immigrated
                  to
                  > the U.S. after her husband died.
                  >
                  > Everyone that immigrated settled in Chicago or surrounding area and, with
                  > the exception of Louis Svec and his parents, were Lutheran (Trinity Slovak
                  > Lutheran Church).
                  >
                  > My dad's name was George Julius, however, on the back of a photograph, I
                  see
                  > that his mother wrote his name as "Durko". Is this indicative of
                  something?
                  > Also wrote the middle name of my uncle as "Ludwig" (Louis). Is this just a
                  > dialect issue or ???? All the other "Georges" in his family were Juraj.
                  >
                  > I will welcome any and all comments.... .anything that might help me
                  untangle
                  > my roots.
                  >
                  > Many Thanks.....Regards, Liz
                  >
                  >

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                • Margo Smith
                  Dear Janet --   I hope you will still talk to me.  My husband is at the end of 11 generations of sturdy serf stock.  The best I could do for him was a
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 18, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Janet --

                    I hope you will still talk to me.� My husband is at the end of 11 generations of sturdy serf stock.� The best I could do for him was a couple of members of village councils, descendants of village founder, 1 miller, 1 blacksmith, 1 furrier.� Some were perpetually obligated to Revay family members.

                    Jan Purgina.� Samuel Mikovini 1700-1750:� Zivot a Dielo.� Bratislava:� Sprava Geodezie a Kartografie na Slovensku, 1958.� Mapa 30 (entire Turiec County) and Mapa 21 (south part of Turiec County).� Bring your magnifying glass.� No, it does not provide the names of any property owners.� But it is soooo cool to see that the ancestral villages existed then, and the "roads" between them.� Actually, it seems that most of the Turiec villages existed back to around 1250.

                    Have you looked at LDS microfilm # 0632504 which are documents on the nobility investigations of Turiec County from 1723-1784?

                    Also Janos Ilessy.� "Turocz varmegye" in Az 1754-55 evi orszagos Nemesi Osszeiras.� Budapest, 1902 pp. 114-117� List of Turiec noble families.

                    I don't recall any Murrins, but I wasn't looking.

                    I have found that ages reported at the time of death were often wrong.

                    Witnesses are hardly "useless."� They substantiate social networks.� It was not at all uncommon for families linked first by baptismal sponsorship later became linked by marriage.� Example, the children of compadres later marry.� Also sometimes when it is hard to tell if a certain child belongs to a particular family, one can see that all of the prospective siblings have the same godparents.

                    I have spent so much time with the parish records from Turciansky Dur, Slovenske Pravno, and Turciansky Michal (includes Ivancina) that I feel like I could recite them from memory!

                    The prevalence, or lack thereof, of a surname can increase or decrease quickly in just a couple of generations depending on the luck of the draw, so to speak.� How many sons does a couple have and do they survive to have sons of their own?� If the family has a bunch of daughters and no sons who live to adulthood, the surname dies out.� A couple of things made a huge impression on me:� families had many children assuming both parents were living, but a lot of the children died; lots of twins too.

                    Did I cover everything?

                    Margo

                    --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

                    From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...>
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 4:32 PM






                    Dear Margo,

                    I am totally unfamiliar with Samuel Mikovini's maps. This news is very
                    exciting. Where are the maps available? Does he include the names of the
                    owners of the farmsteads? That would be absolutely too good to be true, so I
                    am not holding my breath.

                    When Kozlay made his trip to Turocz in 1844 he said he was surprised to
                    learn that the land his family had owned in Nagy Csepcseny was still called
                    �Kozlayo csaska,� meaning Kozlay property. It is this one statement that has
                    made me believe there might be some record of real estate transactions when
                    the family left for the south. There might also be court records. But that
                    would take someone with much better access to records than is available to
                    us on microfilm. Vladimir Bohinc has told me that he would have such access.

                    Court and official county records were very rich when looking for
                    information about the family in Jasz-Nagykun- Szolnok megye. Thanks to my
                    good friend Lajos Reich, in Budapest, we received a five-page report on what
                    was found there. He is a frequent contributor to both Slovak and Hungarian
                    message boards and forums and is an invaluable resource. Because he had a
                    high governmental position during the Communist era, he knows important
                    people all over Hungary, and he knows how to gently twist arms to get
                    information.

                    I strongly suspect that none of the family was left behind when they moved.
                    He did not mention meeting with anyone there from that side of the family.
                    In fact, all of his visiting was with relatives of his step-mother,
                    Zsuzsanna Ruttkay, who was also related to the Kossuths through her own
                    step-mother, whom he also visited. Her own mother was a Szocsovszky, but he
                    never mentioned that name either. Those families, of course, were all
                    nobles, dating way back in Turocz.

                    He stated very clearly, several times, that he descended from �an old noble
                    family." Yet I have not seen the name in listings of Turocz nobility. There
                    are very, very few references in any of the church records to Kozlay (and
                    variations) or Kozlik. Most of them appear only as witnesses, which of
                    course are genealogically pretty useless. Yet the �Kozlay� entries suggest
                    nobility (D., N., or D.N.), while the �Kozlik� ones do not. There is a
                    single intriguing 1792 death notice in Ivancina for �Joannes Kozik, lanio
                    Lovinobanensis,� age 47. Ivancina was the church for residents of Nagy
                    Csepcseny. The notice states that he died in the baths at Stubnya! He is
                    clearly related, as the Koziks lived in Lovinobana (Lonyabanya) in Nograd
                    megye, and they were butchers (lanio). There seems to be little reason for
                    this notice to appear in the Ivancina records unless he had been born there
                    and was perhaps visiting relatives at the time. Yet I find no firm birth
                    record for him. There was a Johannes, son of Michaelis Kozlik, baptized
                    there in 1752, but this is seven years off--unless his age at death was
                    misstated.

                    The marriage record for the father of great-grandfather Kozlay says that his
                    father was Samuel. The only reference I have found for Samuel (lanio) was a
                    death notice in Szirak (in Nograd) that said he died in 1797, age 38, and
                    was born in Szirak. Yet the diary says that it was his grandfather who moved
                    from Turocz to the �Hungarian plain� during the reign of Maria Teresia. So
                    it may be an error to have said he was born in Szirak.

                    Were Samuel and Johannes brothers? Unfortunately, it is the early records
                    for Lovinobana/Lonyaban ya that are missing. They likely could have answered
                    these many questions. But we have to work with what we have.

                    Have you ever run into the name Murin? There is a marriage record in
                    Ivancina for Anna Kozljk and Georgius Murin of Toth-Pronensis in 1741.

                    Those old records are so hard to read! But I have been through them many
                    times, and I don't think I've missed anything. There are lots of Kozols, but
                    I don't think they are related. There are way too many of them.

                    I hope this hasn't been too boring. Obviously this has been a great source
                    of frustration. I have tried to verify everything in the diary, and for the
                    most part I have been successful. But the issue of whether the family was in
                    fact noble and when and who made the move from Turocz to Nograd remains an
                    unsolved mystery. Were Kozlay and Kozlik the same? Importantly, I found two
                    entries for Samuel in Szirak, married to Susanna Massanyi, that used the
                    Kozlay name: witnesses to a baptism, Samuel Kozlay and Susanna Massanyi in
                    1795, and the death of Susanna Massanyi, widow of Samuel Kozele, in 1800.
                    These were great-grandfather Kozlay's grandparents. This matches the entry
                    for the death of Samuel Kozik in 1797. This seems to imply that both names
                    were used when they lived in Nograd! Yet the Kozlay name was not resurrected
                    until great-grandfather Kozlay began using it, probably in the 1840s.

                    Why do the Kozlay entries imply nobility and the Kozliks do not? Were they
                    butchers in Turocz also?

                    If your eyes glaze over during all this, that's all right. But it helps me
                    to pull my data together and organize what I have. It also helps me to
                    figure out what information I need to send to Vladimir if and when I decide
                    to hire him.

                    Thank you for urging me to get back to the book. If I have a legacy at all,
                    it will be that book. But that truly will mean cutting back severely on the
                    research I am doing for others, which is so much fun!

                    Please let me know about the maps.

                    Best regards,
                    Janet

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com] On
                    Behalf Of Margo Smith
                    Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:36 PM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family

                    Janet, the "diary" you have is a valuable and precious resource!� You must
                    keep your focus on finishing this project.� (Sometimes, I need to be
                    reminded about focus also.)

                    Yes, Rebro's book is in Slovak.� And I don't read the language.� What I did
                    was go through the book page by page and photocopy all pages that mentioned
                    my villages and a few other topics I could recognize.� When a cousin visited
                    from SK, I cornered him and pleaded that he read (translate) for me.� He
                    tired of that pretty quickly, so he took my photocopies and had them
                    translated.� Nagy Csepcin is not one of my villages, but I did photocopy all
                    the charts, so I' ll�look for that when I get� back to IL and let you know.�
                    You probably should remind me the middle of next month.

                    Are you familiar with the 1730s maps by Samuel Mikovini?� He did 2 maps of
                    Turocz.� There is Nagy Csepcin!� For each of the villages he draws in the
                    individual farmsteads -- I'm pretty certain that he does NOT have the actual
                    # of farmsteads per village.� E.g. Dubove was always substantially larger
                    than a lot of the other villages in the southern part of the valley, but is
                    not shown on the map as being a lot larger.� What I just noticed about N-C
                    is that behind the farmsteads he has drawn in what looks like an orchard.�
                    It is the only village with an orchard.� (Check the online tax list for 1715
                    for N-C.� Look at the description after the list of taxables and see if the
                    village description mentions an orchard.)

                    Yes, name changes are frustrating.� A lot of my folks had aliases in the
                    1700s.� You have to check every source�for both the surname and the alias --
                    and you have to find at least 1 record that lists both the surname and the
                    alias in the same record to know that the names are linked.� I'm still
                    struggling with the alternate spellings of the names of the godparents and
                    marriage witnesses, e.g. Macz, Matz, Mac are all the same person.� There are
                    relatively few surnames where the spelling is standardized (there is
                    Hungarian, Slovak, and Latin).

                    Yes, my life changed forever when the Slovaks came into my life in 2003.

                    Keep focused!

                    Margo�

                    --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                    From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 12:24 PM

                    Dear Margo,

                    My husband's great-grandfather was an officer in the 1848-49 war, stationed
                    at Komarom when the army was finally defeated, and escaped from Hungary to
                    the U.S. with a group of his fellow officers. He brought with him his �big
                    book,� which was not just a diary but also many memoirs, poetry, and
                    fiction. He continued his diary through his first few years in America.
                    Added to that was a huge amount of correspondence. Several years ago we had
                    it all translated from Hungarian. It took two years two translate nearly
                    1000 pages. It has been my intention to publish (on the Internet) the
                    translations, to which I am adding extensive annotations. I worked on it
                    steadily for several years, but I have been very bad at getting back to it.
                    I got stuck when I came to some that had been written in German for which we
                    did not have the translations. Well, they have now been done, so I don't
                    have a good excuse any more. It's just so much more fun helping others with
                    their research. I need to work on self-discipline and get the job done.
                    There is very little in English that relates to the daily life of the
                    well-to-do in 19th-century Hungary. It also gives insight into the
                    relationship between the serfs and the estate managers and other interesting
                    topics. (Included is some very racy stuff regarding sexual exploits, so racy
                    that my translator didn't want to translate it in detail, which I insisted
                    on. They were a very free-wheeling bunch about sex, both men and women.) It
                    would be terribly sad if I never finished it.

                    Of course I have also done a lot of work researching the family. But the
                    transitional period between Turocz and Nograd is very hazy, mainly because
                    relevant church records have been lost. Trying to make a connection is
                    complicated also because the family used more than one name. I think the
                    family was known as Kozlik and/or a form of Kozlay in Turocz, but so far I
                    have found almost no firm connections. I have considered hiring Vladimir
                    Bohinc, who says it would be an interesting project, but it would also be
                    very expensive research.

                    I certainly agree that that area of Slovakia is very beautiful. We drove up
                    there from Hungary, and the mountains and forests were lovely.
                    Great-grandfather' s trip in 1844 was in mid-winter, which I can't imagine.
                    He had to exchange his horses in Besztercebanya (Banska Bystrica) for ones
                    that were familiar with mountainous terrain, and he did complain about the
                    cold. Whatever made him choose that season for long-distance traveling is
                    beyond me.

                    How wonderful it is that you have been able to find relatives there today.
                    I'm sure we will never be that fortunate. But I was surprised this year to
                    discover descendants of great-grandfather Kozlay's mother, and they have
                    worked out an extensive genealogy of the family. It was most interesting
                    that although Kozlay's father and grandfather both married into that family,
                    neither of the marriages appeared in the family tree. So I have been able to
                    send them significant information.

                    Is the book you recommended only in Slovak? I do not know the language at
                    all, but I am always up for learning more.

                    Best regards, Janet

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com]
                    On
                    Behalf Of Margo Smith
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:52 AM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family

                    Janet, yes, there were a lot of Lichners in Turocz.� My husband's great aunt
                    (an immigrant from Kal'amenova in the 1920s) told me that her Lichners (her
                    mother's ancestors) had "come across the mountains after the Napoleonic
                    Wars."� The 1715 tax list shows that there were Lichners in Turocz at that
                    time, so it wouldn't surprise me if Aunt Anna's chronology was off.

                    Yes, after the Turks were expelled, a bunch of folks from the north migrated
                    south to occupy that vacated territory.� Most branches of my husband's
                    family was in Turocz back into the 1600s and stayed there.� He has cousins
                    there still.

                    Lucky you to have the diary of your husband's great-grandfather!� Have you
                    considered publishing it?

                    Yes, I have visited Turocz (now Turiec) 3 times between 2003-2006.�� The
                    principal crop is cereal grain.� Increased logging in the forests of the
                    Mala Fatras to the west.� Everyone, or so it seems, has a garden plot where
                    they grow potatoes and other veggies.� I particularly liked seeing the apple
                    trees growing along the roadsides -- good use of space.� No, I did not get
                    to Sklabina, but we did visit the castles at Orava and Bojnice in adjacent
                    counties -- and the ruins of Zniev in Turocz.� Next trip has the ruins of
                    the castle at Blatnica on my itinerary because my husband has ancestors from
                    there also.

                    I wanted to visit Zniev because my husband's grandfather had told me about
                    seeing them from Kal'amenova when he was growing up.� With binoculars, I
                    searched unsuccessfully for the ruins from the valley floor.� Then I found a
                    map of hiking trails which showed the location and way to the ruins.� Once I
                    got up there I realized that the forest had grown up and obscured the ruins
                    in the century between the time that the grandfather had lived in
                    Kal'amenova and my trip.�

                    Potatoes are a New World domesticate.� They were cultivated in Slovakia
                    starting in about the 1770s in response to a famine.

                    Check out Karol Rebro's book Ubarska regulacia Marie Terezie a poddanske
                    upravy Jozefa II Na Slovensku.� You can get it on interlibrary loan.� If my
                    memory is correct, there are tables which list the villages and whether they
                    are good or poor land.� If you remind me when I get back to IL after Aug.
                    12, I will look up your villages for you.� My recollection is that Turiec
                    was entirely in the 3 best classes of land.

                    Margo

                    --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                    From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer... Lichner family
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:00 AM

                    Margo,

                    Note in the Radix Index (www.radixindex. com) how many Lichners show up in
                    villages in Turocz--Tot- Prona, Turocz-Szent- Marton, Zsambokret, Stubnya,
                    even my village of interest, Nagy-Csepcseny. Then you see them show up in
                    places to the south--Beszterceban ya, Selmecbanya, Balassagyarmat,
                    Endrefalva. I have seen in my own research many, many families (both peasant
                    and noble) from Turocz who moved south, often to Nograd. Most of this
                    migration seemed to take place in the late 1700s and early 1800s. My
                    husband's family was a part of this pattern, going first to Nograd, then to
                    northern Pest, and finally ending up in Jasz-Nagykun- Szolnok.

                    According to the extensive diary of my husband's great-grandfather, who
                    visited his relatives in Turocz in 1844, the land was very poor for
                    agriculture, with potatoes being a main crop. This may help explain why so
                    many left.

                    It sounds like you have also visited the area. Did you get to see the castle
                    at Sklabina? That was a highlight of our trip.

                    Janet

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                    com]
                    On
                    Behalf Of Margo Smith
                    Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:11 PM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

                    Thank you for your suggestion, Janet.� Yes, I checked both Catholic and
                    Lutheran church records for Slovenske Pravno and found only the daughter.�
                    It could be an explanation.� The Lichners (father) were Lutheran.� Maybe I
                    should look for an adjacent Lutheran parish and check that one.� The family
                    lived in the hamlet of Kal'amenova, but attended church and school in
                    Slovenske Pravno.

                    --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                    From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 9:03 AM

                    Hi Margo,

                    In much of this cultural area it was, and still is, the custom that in mixed
                    marriages, boys followed the religion of the father; the girls that of the
                    mother. Could that explain your data? Have you checked the records for both
                    churches?

                    Janet

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                    com]
                    On
                    Behalf Of Margo Smith
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:43 AM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

                    Dobre rano Everyone!

                    Janet's comments�about Turocz are right on.� It is a fascinating county in
                    terms of its history, not to mention beautiful.� In addition, Slovenske
                    Pravno is along an ancient trade route which extended from the Danube basin
                    north into what is now Poland.

                    RE: The "Durko" on the photo.� Could it be Jurko, which is a nickname for
                    Juraj (George)?

                    The LDS has microfilmed the "mixed marriage registers" from Slovenske Pravno
                    which is a gold mine.� In this register, 1 spouse is Catholic and 1 is
                    Lutheran.� People are identified by name, age, date of marriage, names and
                    ages of children.� Multiple years available.� They are on the same reels
                    with the church records.

                    The family I am looking at in the mixed marriage registers has presented a
                    dilemma.� In the 1860s, the family had 3 children:� Jan, Jozef, and Anna.��
                    Only Anna appears with her parents in the register.� Why would only 1 of the
                    children be listed?� The only thing I can think of is that Anna was
                    Catholic, and the 2 sons�might have been�Lutherans.� (Yes, there were 3
                    children who lived to adulthood -- other records verify that.)� Was it
                    common to raise some children in 1 religion and other children in the
                    other?� Among Anna's own children, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Catholic, and 1
                    I don't know the religion.� Does anyone have any insight on this?

                    Margo

                    --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net> wrote:

                    From: Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast. net>
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:34 PM

                    Hi Liz and Anabeth,

                    Rudno (Turoczrudno) is a tiny village just south of Slovenske Pravno. Its
                    church records will be found with those from Slovenske Pravno.

                    It should be very interesting to match and combine the Chicago church
                    records with those from Slovakia. It should make for a very large and
                    complex family tree. It will be a lot of work, but the results should be
                    spectacular.

                    Tur�cz was a very interesting county for its small size. There was a
                    relatively high proportion of Germans there, more than its neighboring
                    counties. It was also an important center for the Evangelical/ Lutheran
                    church as well as for Slovak nationalism. Ironically, it was also the home
                    of Lajos Kossuth�s family since the 13th century. Kossuth led Hungary�s
                    1848-49 war of independence against Austria yet never recognized the
                    strength and determination of Hungary�s Slovak minority to seek their own
                    independence from Hungary.

                    Tur�cz (Nagy Csepcs�ny) was the home of my husband�s ancestors, in the
                    1700s, before they migrated south to the Hungarian Plain. I have had
                    considerable difficulty tracing the family there. If either of you should
                    happen to look at records from the 1700s and run into names like Kozlay,
                    Kozlech, or Kozlik, or anything else beginning with �Kozl,� I would
                    appreciate hearing.

                    Janet

                    Janet

                    _____

                    From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
                    com]
                    On
                    Behalf Of Anabeth Dollins
                    Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:33 PM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] This newcomer is happy to meet you all

                    Hi, Liz --

                    I spent some time looking at my Trinity Slovak Lutheran Church
                    (Chicago) microfilms. Found a bunch of records on Kuka, Klein, and
                    Svec families, which I'll send you as a separate email. There are lots
                    and lots of Mizialkos and Zvonar family records -- I didn't copy any
                    of those records since there are so many.

                    In the records, the Klein family that you mentioned is from Rudno;
                    Zuzanna's last name is spelled Derer, not Direr. And another of your
                    Zuzannas is Fontani in the records, not Fontana.

                    Interesting to note that while your Klein family and the one in my
                    database are not the same, they're both from Rudno. Wonder whether
                    they're related.

                    Anabeth Dollins

                    On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Elizabeth Tjomsland
                    <e_tjomsland@ <mailto:e_tjomsland %40yahoo. com> yahoo.com> wrote:
                    > Hello, my name is Liz. I joined this group recently, because I thought I
                    > might get some pointers on my genealogy research. I'm a novice who has
                    been
                    > working from bits and pieces of information found in the paperwork of my
                    > parents after they passed on. All the folks from previous generations are
                    > gone, so there is no one left to ask. The following is what I do know at
                    > this point.
                    >
                    > My paternal grandfather, Juraj Kuka (1885-1961), came from Slovenske
                    > Pravno,Martin Turciansky Svaety. He was very certain that there was no
                    > change in the surname spelling.
                    > Parents: Juraj Kuka(1843-1905) and Suzanna Fontana(1859- 1941).
                    > Siblings: Jan, Jozef (m. Irena Kollar), Amelia (m. Paul Podmajersky) ,
                    > Suzanna (m. George Durkovic, I think).
                    > My grandfather married Suzanna Klein(1889-1934) . Even though the name
                    sounds
                    > Germanic, she insisted that she was Slovak. Her parents were Jozef
                    > Klein(1869-1934) and Suzanna Direr (1864-1942) and they supposedly had a
                    farm
                    > in Slovakia which was eventually confiscated by the Communists.
                    >
                    > My maternal grandmother, Alzbeta Zvonar,(1892- 1935) came from Brezova.
                    > Parents: Martin Zvonar and Katarina Mizialko (1862-1929)
                    > Siblings: Matej (1887-1887), Stefan (1888 - ?), Judita (1896-1902) and
                    > Martin (1905 - ?).
                    > My grandmother married Louis (Alois) Svec in Chicago. I know next to
                    nothing
                    > about him. He supposedly ran away from home at the age of 17, came to the
                    > U.S. and had little contact with his family. His parents were Jozef Svec
                    and
                    > Mary Rovnanski.
                    >
                    > My maternal great grandmother was Katarina Mizialko from Brezova.
                    > Parents: Stefan Mizialko(b.1820- ?) and Alzbeta Chvascula(b. 1822-?).
                    > Siblings: Stefan (1847-?), Matej, Jan, and Suzanna 1856-?)(m Samuel Nosko)
                    > She married Martin Zvonar in 1886, who apparently came to the U.S. on
                    > several occasions to work the coal mines in Pennsylvania. She immigrated
                    to
                    > the U.S. after her husband died.
                    >
                    > Everyone that immigrated settled in Chicago or surrounding area and, with
                    > the exception of Louis Svec and his parents, were Lutheran (Trinity Slovak
                    > Lutheran Church).
                    >
                    > My dad's name was George Julius, however, on the back of a photograph, I
                    see
                    > that his mother wrote his name as "Durko". Is this indicative of
                    something?
                    > Also wrote the middle name of my uncle as "Ludwig" (Louis). Is this just a
                    > dialect issue or ???? All the other "Georges" in his family were Juraj.
                    >
                    > I will welcome any and all comments.... .anything that might help me
                    untangle
                    > my roots.
                    >
                    > Many Thanks.....Regards, Liz
                    >
                    >

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