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Re: Diacritics

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  • Paul Guzowski
    Ben, Lisa, et al.... Having been around this issue for some time with every genealogy group I belong to on Yahoo (was four but now only three), let me throw in
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 25, 2008
      Ben, Lisa, et al....

      Having been around this issue for some time with every genealogy group I
      belong to on Yahoo (was four but now only three), let me throw in my two
      cents' worth.

      First, WYSISWYG (called whizeewig... it means What You See Is What You Get)
      was popularized by Apple with the first MACs. It was a while before those
      in the Windows world could benefit from the same luxury of knowing that what
      they saw on the screen would print the same way. As I recall, this was
      partially solved with Windows 3.1 but wasn't truly seamless/effortless until
      Windows 95.

      That said, several factors come into play. First, what you can input from
      your keyboard depends on which keyboard layout you have installed on your
      machine regardless of what operating system you are using. I normally use
      the American International layout with dead keys as this gives me many if
      not most of the accented characters I need for Western European languages
      (German, French, Italian, Spanish, etc). I also have the Slovak QWERTZ
      keyboard loaded and can switch to it with a simple CNTRL key sequence when I
      need the letters with carons, etc. I did the same when I worked in
      Lithuania and it works well for me although I take a while to remember the
      Y-Z switched key locations as well as a couple of the other accented
      characters since they are not explicitly marked on the keyboard (you can
      order a Slovak/Czech keyboard if that will help).

      Second, what you are able to see on the screen depends on which code page
      you have loaded at boot time (but don't dwell on this as it's pretty much a
      non-player for most of us). This is what tells the operating system what
      letter to display for a given code in a file.

      Thirdly, what your software will handle depends on a few things but if it
      only handles ASCII 256, many accented characters will not be possible.
      Fortunately, this problem went away with the transition from DOS to Windows
      for most of us. That said, how the database records information can limit
      what can be entered and shown based on how the fields in the database are
      defined.

      Given all the above, if FTM cannot handle the diacriticals necessary for
      Slovak (or German or Czech or Polish... etc), I would look elsewhere. I use
      Linux as my operating system of choice and have no problems to display,
      print, or save any of the diacritics (which probably explains why Liza
      doesn't have problems since the MAC O/S is now Unix based). For genealogy
      work, I use GenJ which is a free, open source, public domain genealogy
      database program written in Java so it can run on any platform (MAC,
      Windows, Unix, Linux, BEOS, etc) that has Java installed. It saves the files
      in a standard genealogy format (GEDCOM) that can be used by many if not most
      of the software out there. To wit, I do my work in GenJ on Linux and when I
      save the file my brothers who primarily use Windows can open it and add
      their comments, data, etc. I'm not in any way affiliated with GenJ but if
      you are curious and want to learn more, look here:
      http://genj.sourceforge.net/wiki/doku.php

      You'll note that the program is available in German, French, Russian,
      Polish, Spanish, and Hungarian but not Slovak or Czech. Fortunately, I
      suspect most of the people in this group will use only the English version
      which supports all the Slovak/Czech characters but gives menus in English.

      OK.... sorry for the longish post. If you have specific questions feel free
      to contact me directly via back-channel email (reply to sender) and I'll do
      what I can to help you out.

      S pozdrávom,

      Paul in NW Florida


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Paul Guzowski
      One last thing I forgot when posting last night, if you have trouble getting some of your programs to run as expected after upgrading your operating system
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 26, 2008
        One last thing I forgot when posting last night, if you have trouble getting
        some of your programs to run as expected after upgrading your operating
        system (e.g. from Windows XP to Windows Vista), try using the new OS's
        compatibility mode. For example, if you have an older program that ran well
        under Windows 98 or XP but doesn't behave well under Vista, try instructing
        Vista to run the program in XP compatibility mode. This will negates some
        of Vista's bells and whistles but very well may get your program running
        more like it did with the older operating system.

        Paul in NW Florida


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Margo Smith
        Dobre rano Ben and Everyone   Ben, I use Family Tree Maker to generate pedigree charts, but we all know that FTM doesn t accept all SK diacritics.  One kind
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 28, 2008
          Dobre rano Ben and Everyone

          Ben, I use Family Tree Maker to generate pedigree charts, but we all know that FTM doesn't accept all SK diacritics.� One kind of chart it generates is called an hourglass, which includes ancestors as well as descendants of a particular person.

          My copy of FTM came to me as a gift 5 years ago so I don't know what my friend paid, but my recollection is that the price is < $100.� Perks?� What do you mean by that?� The new version of FTM (I think 2008) came out last fall and has a bug which the company does not intend to correct:� I am told that when importing data from previous versions surnames with suffixes (e.g., Senior, Junior), the program does not do it correctly.

          Another quirk of FTM is that if a surname has an alias, e.g. Hlavnya alias Vozzar, FTM will index it under the alias instead of the surname.� And in the index, the surnames beginning with S with macken are all listed after S with no diactiric.

          Your test characters came through fine but do not seem to include e with acute accent, as in Dubove and Slovenske Pravno, which both have the accent.

          I'm getting so confused, I'm ready to pour myself a cold glass of Zlaty Bazant (except that it is too early in the morning for pivo!).� Yes, I'm sure it makes a difference for people who use Mac, XP, or Vista.� Just because yahoo does something, that does not mean that�something else, like FTM, will also do it.

          Now that I am near the conclusion of my Slovak project, except for maintenance, I am dealing with the diacritic problem differently than I would if I were just starting out.� I use FTM for ancestral and descent charts�� Fortunately, there are few words which require c with macken -- the other diacritics I need I can cut and paste from Word.� Those charts can not be cut and pasted into Word.� So cut and paste works one way (into FTM)�but not the reverse (into Word).� I will scan the charts and insert them into a large Word document.� As for the family group sheet charts, I am re-typing them in Word.� Ouch!� However, this solves several problems (1) diacritics, because there are more c with macken on these charts, (2)� being able to differentiate births from baptisms and deaths from burials on�each chart as appropriate, (3) saves paper and looks more uniform with the narrative descriptions of the 95 family groups.

          Happy weekend, everyone.

          Margo

          --- On Tue, 6/24/08, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:

          From: Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...>
          Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: Diacritics
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2008, 3:51 PM






          Dobry den Margo and everyone,
          How much does that program cost and what are its perks?� I am scratching my head over the fact that it will not take "foreign" characters- But then does yahoo in plaintext? I was thinking of giving it a try- as I use a different regional setting for English, Slovak, Czech, and German. (I learned to type on both qwerty and qwertz keyboards, and some special characters take a touch of hunting for-especially in German.)
          So consider this a test. I am going to send us special charachters and let me know if you guys can see them! If not, just erase this from your email, but we will see if this will make name-writig on this forum more "interesting. " :-)
          TEST:
          Slovak ������������������
          Czech +����������������
          German ��������

          Like I said, I have turned off the formatting on my yahoo, and this looked just fine on my end. Let's see what happens when it gets put into the wash!
          Benisko
          --- On Tue, 6/24/08, Margo Smith <margolane61@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: Margo Smith <margolane61@ yahoo.com>
          Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: Diacritics
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2008, 9:59 PM

          Dobre den, Everyone

          I apologize for the delay in my reply.� I was tending to my vegetable garden, a good Slovak activity, and visiting a Slovak friend in the hospital.� And I thank you for your helpful replies.

          Yes, Bill, I contacted FTM twice about this.� They told me that they only support the Western European character set.� I agree that all the "foreign characters should be an essential component of any genealogy program."� After all, most of us are descendants of immigrants, and not all from English speaking places.

          Yes, Polly, ultimately I will upgrade my FTM, after I personally check that all the Slovak diacritics I need work.� I'll probably leap to a major upgrade of hardware, XP to Vista, FTM and other software, etc. at the same time.

          In the meantime, my system is not very efficient, but it works.

          Margo


          --- On Mon, 6/23/08, Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@ iabsi.com> wrote:

          From: Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@ iabsi.com>
          Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: Diacritics
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Monday, June 23, 2008, 4:27 AM

          Hello Margo,
          What does the publisher of FTM have to say about all of this? I presume you
          paid good money for this program. You at least deserve their help. Foreign
          characters should be an essential component of any genealogy program.
          Bill

          -----Original Message-----
          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com] On
          Behalf Of Margo Smith
          Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 11:42 AM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: Diacritics

          The c with caron in Family Tree Maker�remains elusive after following Bill's
          suggestion.

          Bill, FTM accepts some of the Slovak characters but not the c with caron.�
          Your foreign language character�guidelines� at iabsi gives the example of c
          with the little v is produced by typing the number key 4.� When I do that, I
          get e with accent grave.� Using your upper case example I get AE.

          All of the Slovak characters work correctly in Microsoft Word.

          This is a�particularly� vexing problem�for me because my husband's roots are
          deep�in Turciansky Dur and Turciansky Michal.� So I use that c with caron a
          lot.

          Next stop are Gordon's alt key codes and Sue's links.� Thanks for your
          guidance.

          Margo

          --- On Sat, 6/21/08, Sue <sueseyes@sbcglobal . net> wrote:

          From: Sue <sueseyes@sbcglobal . net>
          Subject: [S-R] Re: Diacritics
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 10:24 AM

          Hi Margo,

          Found these diacritics sites for windows. Hope these help.

          International Accent Marks and Diacriticals
          http://www.starr. net/is/type/ altnum.htm

          Windows - Alt Key Numeric Codes
          (http://tlt.its. psu.edu/suggesti ons/internationa l/accents/ codealt.html
          )

          Sue
          Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
          Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/ancestorhu nters/

          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, Margo Smith <margolane61@ ...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Among this group of experts, I hope there is someone who can point
          me in the right direction.
          > �
          > I use Family Tree Maker (version 9 or 10) and have had great
          difficulty with Slovak diacritics on the names of people and places.�
          Twice I contacted Family Tree Maker, who tole me that they do not
          support Slovak diacritics.� I discovered that it is possible to cut
          and paste MOST of the Slovak diacritics from Word into Family Tree
          Maker.� However, c with caron seems impossible.� I asked about this
          at the CSI conference in Madison last October.� and I also asked my
          computer wizard friends.� None of them have been able to do this
          either.
          > �
          > My husband believes that one should be able to make a macro
          consisting of c backspace caron, although we don't know how to do it.
          (As opposed to using the ASCII code for the symbol of c with caron,
          which is what I tried to do.)
          > �
          > Have any of you been able to solve this problem?� Thank you for any
          insight you might have on this problem.
          > �
          > Margo
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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