Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [S-R] Sonntagsgrund, Slovakia (Markusovce)

Expand Messages
  • Ben Sorensen
    Great idea Ron, and I just was able to sit back at a computer. I am awfully busy! I just translated the german for you: however, it builds credibility in the
    Message 1 of 52 , May 26, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Great idea Ron, and I just was able to sit back at a computer. I am awfully busy! I just translated the german for you: however, it builds credibility in the fact that it admits mistakes!
      German:
      Anmerkung: Die Unterartikel werden derzeit sukzessive überarbeitet, bei alten Einträgen können die hier angeführten deutschen und ungarischen Namen zu einem großen Teil künstliche neuzeitliche Ableitungen aus mittelalterlichen Formen, wörtliche Übersetzungen slowakischer und ungarischer Namen (und eventuell sogar falsch) sein. Für die zwischen dem 18. und 20. Jahrhundert noch gebräuchlichen Formen bitte derzeit noch die Liste deutscher Bezeichnungen slowakischer Orte oder die jeweilige Okres-Seite benutzen!
      English:
      Note: The "Unterartikel" is revised gradually at present, with old entries the German and Hungarian names stated here to a large part are artificial modern derivatives from medieval forms, (or) literal translations of Slovak and Hungarian names (and possibly even wrong). For between the 18. and 20. centuries still common forms at present please use still the list of German designations of Slovak places or the respective Okres!

      There you go Ron. :-)
      I have to translate German to Slovak then to English- and my German is relatively weak, so if you don't agree with the translation, then, most likely, niether do I! :-D I don't speak German everyday....
      Like I said, I am still learning. I appreciate everyone's input and courtesy. Thank you all
      Ben



      Ron Matviyak <rmat@...> wrote:
      Ben,

      Vlad is playing his cards close to his chest. How do you interpret
      the introductory remarks under Anmerkung: in your German language
      references? What degree of uncertainty do they define?

      I suggest you also try google.de for german language searches. In
      most cases, but not in this one, they often turn up more German
      references. Basically I found one reference under Google books that
      came up from Das Königreich Ungarn: Ein topograph.-hist.-statistisches
      Rundgemälde...

      Ron

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Good point- and well taken- I have not seen those entries. I think
      what we lack are German sources in this case, and perhaps the only way
      to find out is to ask a local. I will call some friends around Zvolen
      and also take a look around Markusovce while I am back home.
      >
      > The internet is flawed, but I would gander that someone was led to
      believe that these entries were correct. I would also love to know why--
      >
      > The German character is not so much of a surprise as even into the
      Spis area many germans settled: in Zakovce, for example, if one
      examines the neglected area of the cemetery, one finds GERMANS all
      over the place from well before WWII. The Slovak population is by far
      the majority, granted, but it does show that the germans at one time
      did go there and settle. (Zakovce is a small village outside of
      Poprad.) The old Lutheran church is now Orthodox (or Greek Catholic, I
      don't remember), another sign of the German exodus after WWII.
      >
      > When I looked up Sonntagsgrund on the net, nothing showed other
      than these two sources ( I had to search in German. English searches
      revealed even less... and Slovak- nothing.) which is not a BIG
      surprise since one cannot find anything on Peter Paciga, Jozko Rybar
      or Ondrej Mados. Well Rybar brings some hits-nothing substantial, and
      the Mados Wikipedia entry is VERY short. I guess the net gives us
      everything to buy, but no real information.
      > Thank you for being civil Marilyn! :-) Happy Memorial Day!
      > Ben
      >
      >
      > Marilyn Hertenstein <mjhertenstein@...> wrote:
      > Thank you for your efforts Ben, but I disagree. I too
      found that listing of
      > Sonntagsgrund, but it is much too far away to be associated with a
      church in
      > Markusovce. By the way, I have communicated many times with Lisa
      Baker who
      > transcribed some of the Markusovce records, and have seen most of
      them at
      > the FHC. The Sonntagsgrund listed in the Markusovce records must
      have been
      > closer to Markusovce than way over near Banska Bystrica. There are
      far too
      > many entries.
      >
      > The search continues...
      >
      > Marilyn
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
      > Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:27 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Sonntagsgrund, Slovakia (Markusovce)
      >
      > I found it when I googled it, they have it on the German Wikipedia
      and then
      > in an online German site- trying to crossreference it again.
      > Maybe I am dead-wrong, but I know that the German sites had it listed as
      > such.
      > Here is that reference:
      >
      > http://de.wikipedia
      >
      <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_St%C3%A4dte_und_Gemeinden_in_der_Slo
      > wakei/H-%C4%BD>
      > .org/wiki/Liste_der_St%C3%A4dte_und_Gemeinden_in_der_Slowakei/H-%C4%BD
      >
      > Here it is clearly stated that Horne Prsany is Sonntagsgrund, in the
      Banska
      > Bystrica area, and so on. I checked it on Google Earth, which is well
      > referenced, but didn't show anything. I did, however, find that it is
      > well-photographed on Google Earth.
      >
      > Sorry, but I don't have any archives here at the house, but I am
      planning on
      > bringing some back from home. However, if it can be referenced, say,
      with
      > the old "village dictionaries" that would probably give me more
      credit than
      > Wikipedia. I just didn't buy that when I had the chance... sakra.
      >
      > However, I am apt to trust this site- even (or especially) in German.
      > Ben
      >
      > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@ <mailto:bill.tarkulich%40iabsi.com>
      > iabsi.com> wrote:
      > Hello Ben,
      >
      > What is your source of information? All of the standard Gazetteers,
      > cross-references and the like fail to locate it.
      >
      > Bill
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Ben Sorensen
      > Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 5:11 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Sonntagsgrund, Slovakia (Markusovce)
      >
      > Hello,
      > That village "Sonntagsgrund" is in the Banska Bystrica area-in Slovak:
      > Horne Prsany! I just found it. Now... as time permits, I will get you a
      > full history straight from thier site. :-) Sorry, though, I am not
      familiar
      > with anyone there. I hope this helps.
      > Ben
      >
      > Marilyn Hertenstein <mjhertenstein@ <mailto:mjhertenstein%40charter.net>
      > charter.net> wrote:
      > Thanks for your interest in my dilemma Bill. You give some good
      > hints and direction.
      >
      > In the church records I have seen, it is interesting to see on some
      pages
      > when a Mariassy was baptized (or a few others probably noble) the
      > handwriting changed, is large and beautifully scripted. I guess
      money talked
      > even back then! Haha
      >
      > Marilyn
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Bill Tarkulich
      > Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 8:16 AM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Sonntagsgrund, Slovakia (Markusovce)
      >
      > "Sonntagsgrund" could perhaps be a locality or a short-lived
      settlement? I
      > would suggest that some historical research and some high quality
      maps might
      > be helpful.
      > In this document,
      > http://www.teplicka <http://www.teplicka.sk/download/markusovce>
      > .sk/download/markusovce
      > there is a comment about hunting in the "Sonntagovej doline" (valley).
      >
      > Mind you also that there was a very significant castle here.
      > http://www.zamky. <http://www.zamky.sk/?mon=810670&q=node/3>
      > sk/?mon=810670&q=node/3 It is possible that the people in
      > question were in a family of servants. Owners often traveled to other
      > lands and perhaps brought servants with them.
      >
      > I believe that the powerful owners (Mariassy) over time for the most
      part
      > were Magyar. However, it is quite intriguing that the name mentioned
      is of a
      > Germanic nature, so question of why the German name would also be a
      worthy
      > investigation. I would also pursue an investigation of the Mariassy
      > heraldry, it could yield clues.
      >
      > I would suggest trying to bound down the years in which this name is
      > referenced, and search for historical information and historical
      maps for
      > that specific era.
      >
      > For maps, I would suggest either the VKU tourist series (high topo
      details)
      > or a Cadastral map.
      >
      > No answers, but food for thought and worth further investigation.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Bill
      >
      > The village that is a mystery is Sonntagsgrund. My gr-grandmother Maria
      > Kristof listed that as her village. She is not the only one in the
      church
      > records that list it, there are numerous listings for that village. Most
      > everyone in my ancestry came from Teplicska, Markusovce, Kotterbach
      > (Rudnany) and Matejovce. Have you ever heard of this village in the Spis
      > region?
      >
      > I have found a listing for Sonntagsgrund far west where it is now
      known as
      > Horné Pršany, in Hungarian it was Felsõperesény, and located in Banská
      > Bystrica, Slovakia. This village seems extremely out of range for a
      church
      > in Markusovce to be recording numerous baptisms and marriages. If
      there were
      > only one or two listings, one could write it off as travelers, or
      > people traveling home to have their child baptized in Markusovce. But, I
      > feel there must have been another village with same name. Someone
      told me
      > the German translation might be "Sunday Place".
      >
      > Can you shed any light on my mystery village of Sonntagsgrund?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Marilyn
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/>
      > yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      > http://www.yahoogro <http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS>
      > ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
      > SLOVAK-ROOTS- <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>
      > unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/>
      > yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      > http://www.yahoogro <http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS>
      > ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
      > SLOVAK-ROOTS- <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>
      > unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/>
      > yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      > http://www.yahoogro <http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS>
      > ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
      > SLOVAK-ROOTS- <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>
      > unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Marilyn Hertenstein
      I just received a letter from the lady in Slovakia who had heard of Sonntagsgrund. In a hand written letter, she just touched on the Sonntagsgrund matter. She
      Message 52 of 52 , Jun 17, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        I just received a letter from the lady in Slovakia who had heard of Sonntagsgrund. In a hand written letter, she just touched on the Sonntagsgrund matter. She said that an American she met was looking for his grandfather's family. His death certificate listed it as Zzontagrund , which she said was a very old name for a place near Spis Nova Ves. She had asked around (this was back in 1963) about this village name and was told by some old timers that the name was changed to Zavatsken dolina (Zavatska Valley), and "later on when Slovakia after World War II ended a Iron ore mine was built there and controled."

        So now I have a new village name to research!

        Marilyn

        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marilyn Hertenstein
        Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:26 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [S-R] Sonntagsgrund, Slovakia (Markusovce)



        Will do!

        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Geiss
        Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:35 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Sonntagsgrund, Slovakia (Markusovce)

        Marilyn, I can do even better than that. Contact me at tomfgurka@gvtc. <mailto:tomfgurka%40gvtc.com> com, and I can give you her E-mail address, and you can correspond directly with her. I believe you two would hit it off well.
        Her computer is dying, and her health isn't much better. But she needs something to take her mind off her arthritic pains, etc. and anything she tells you that has to do with old mines, you must be sure and share with Ron and the group. Tom
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Marilyn Hertenstein
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 8:28 AM
        Subject: RE: [S-R] Sonntagsgrund, Slovakia (Markusovce)

        Amazing!! Thank you for your efforts. I've been trying to hunt down information on old Slovak mines, but unsuccessful regarding Sonntagsgrund. I look forward to your next post on the subject once you hear from your friend.

        Thanks,
        Marilyn

        -----Original Message-----
        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Geiss
        Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 12:06 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Sonntagsgrund, Slovakia (Markusovce)

        I just had a communication from a friend who lives in Spisska Nova Ves, (
        since 1939 ). She spelled it ZZONTAGRUND?? Said that for forty years
        it's been known as THE VALLEY OF MARKUSOVCE.
        She has promised to write me a story about someone from there.
        Tom
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Bill Tarkulich" <bill.tarkulich@ <mailto:bill.tarkulich%40iabsi.com> iabsi.com>
        To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 8:15 AM
        Subject: RE: [S-R] Sonntagsgrund, Slovakia (Markusovce)

        "Sonntagsgrund" could perhaps be a locality or a short-lived settlement? I
        would suggest that some historical research and some high quality maps might
        be helpful.
        In this document,
        http://www.teplicka <http://www.teplicka <http://www.teplicka.sk/download/markusovce> .sk/download/markusovce> .sk/download/markusovce
        there is a comment about hunting in the "Sonntagovej doline" (valley).

        Mind you also that there was a very significant castle here.
        http://www.zamky. <http://www.zamky. <http://www.zamky.sk/?mon=810670&q=node/3> sk/?mon=810670&q=node/3> sk/?mon=810670&q=node/3 It is possible that the people in
        question were in a family of servants. Owners often traveled to other
        lands and perhaps brought servants with them.

        I believe that the powerful owners (Mariassy) over time for the most part
        were Magyar. However, it is quite intriguing that the name mentioned is of
        a Germanic nature, so question of why the German name would also be a worthy
        investigation. I would also pursue an investigation of the Mariassy
        heraldry, it could yield clues.

        I would suggest trying to bound down the years in which this name is
        referenced, and search for historical information and historical maps for
        that specific era.

        For maps, I would suggest either the VKU tourist series (high topo details)
        or a Cadastral map.

        No answers, but food for thought and worth further investigation.

        Regards,
        Bill

        The village that is a mystery is Sonntagsgrund. My gr-grandmother Maria
        Kristof listed that as her village. She is not the only one in the church
        records that list it, there are numerous listings for that village. Most
        everyone in my ancestry came from Teplicska, Markusovce, Kotterbach
        (Rudnany) and Matejovce. Have you ever heard of this village in the Spis
        region?

        I have found a listing for Sonntagsgrund far west where it is now known as
        Horné Pršany, in Hungarian it was Felsõperesény, and located in Banská
        Bystrica, Slovakia. This village seems extremely out of range for a church
        in Markusovce to be recording numerous baptisms and marriages. If there
        were only one or two listings, one could write it off as travelers, or
        people traveling home to have their child baptized in Markusovce. But, I
        feel there must have been another village with same name. Someone told me
        the German translation might be "Sunday Place".

        Can you shed any light on my mystery village of Sonntagsgrund?

        Thanks,
        Marilyn

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups. <http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/> yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/> yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/

        To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        http://www.yahoogro <http://www.yahoogro <http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS> ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS> ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        SLOVAK-ROOTS- <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> unsubscribe@ <mailto:unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

        ------------------------------------

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups. <http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/> yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/> yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/

        To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        http://www.yahoogro <http://www.yahoogro <http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS> ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS> ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        SLOVAK-ROOTS- <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> unsubscribe@ <mailto:unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

        ------------------------------------

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups. <http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/> yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/> yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/

        To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogro <http://www.yahoogro <http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS> ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS> ups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS- <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> unsubscribe@ <mailto:unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.