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[S-R] Re: New to the Group/ Erdelyi

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  • Sue
    Hi Janet, I have uploaded ALL records I have on this family to the photo section under Erdelyi Album. I also have ancestry.com world deluxe edition, so this is
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
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      Hi Janet,
      I have uploaded ALL records I have on this family to the photo
      section under Erdelyi Album. I also have ancestry.com world deluxe
      edition, so this is all I could find as well. I just found out that
      his name was Karoly I did not know that this was the Hungarian
      equivalent for Charles.
      Thank for your input, this has helped tremendously.
      Sue
      Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
      Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/



      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Dear Sue,
      >
      >
      >
      > I took a look at Amalia Tar's manifest from 1907, and the name is
      written
      > quite clearly there. She was going to her brother, Zigmont, in
      Kreisherville
      > NY. Zsigmond immigrated in 1906 to his brother-in-law Istvan Szasz,
      also in
      > Kreisherville. On the same ship with Amalia were Peter Tar,
      Zsigmond's
      > brother, and Balint Tar, Zsigmond's cousin, destination Staten
      Island (which
      > is the same as Kreisherville). Zsigmond's wife, Roza (maiden name
      Szasz),
      > and daughter, Paula, joined him in 1907.
      >
      >
      >
      > My immediate question would be why you believe Amalia Tar is your
      Julia
      > Toth?
      >
      >
      >
      > Toth is one of the most common of Hungarian family names.
      Nevertheless, I
      > have not been able to find immigration records for your Julia,
      Esther, or
      > Helen Toth from Halabor. If you have located them, where have you
      found them
      > (dates, ship names, spelling of names)?
      >
      >
      >
      > The only Karoly Erdelyi I could find in the immigration records that
      > corresponds to your data immigrated on February 2, 1906, to
      Redington PA.
      > His last residence was Adorjanhaza, which is in Veszprem county.
      Veszprem is
      > a considerable distance from Bereg. However, it is still possible,
      since he
      > could have moved from his place of birth.
      >
      >
      >
      > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
      September 17,
      > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
      >
      >
      >
      > People did move around, sometimes more than we tend to give them
      credit for.
      > While there are families who have lived in the same village for many
      > generations, even hundreds of years, other family names may pop up
      suddenly
      > in a village, and just as suddenly, disappear. Perhaps these
      families tended
      > to be more restless, or adventuresome, or desperate, than others,
      willing to
      > strike out for better conditions elsewhere. It might not be
      surprising to
      > find such families represented in greater numbers among the
      immigrants.
      > Therefore, one cannot be certain that an immigrant's last residence
      was also
      > his place of birth.
      >
      >
      >
      > As for Erdelyi meaning "from Erdely," I did not mean to suggest
      that you
      > could ever find the family's roots in Transylvania. As Bill pointed
      out,
      > people began taking family names around the 16th century. Most
      commonly the
      > names derived from a physical or personality attribute (e.g., Kis,
      meaning
      > little), an occupation (e.g., Kovacs, meaning blacksmith), or a
      place where
      > they came from (e.g., Budai, meaning from Buda). The purpose, of
      course, was
      > to distinguish them in some way from the many others with the same
      given
      > name. It is certainly conceivable that Karoly's ancient ancestors
      were "from
      > Erdely." But this serves only to be an interesting piece of
      information, not
      > anything that would be useful genealogically.
      >
      >
      >
      > Janet
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Bill Tarkulich
      Sue, I would offer that Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades and genealogy dates !!!! What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
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        Sue,
        I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
        and genealogy dates" !!!!

        What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
        reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
        There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
        grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
        Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.

        Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
        unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
        important.

        It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
        Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families with
        the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
        that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with the
        same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important clue.

        I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
        evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
        smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a trail.

        Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.

        Bill

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
        >
        > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
        September 17,
        > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
        >
        >
      • Sue
        Hi Bill, My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album. Sue Don t be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns. Ancestor Hunters
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
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          Hi Bill,
          My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album.
          Sue
          Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
          Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/


          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
          <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
          >
          > Sue,
          > I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
          > and genealogy dates" !!!!
          >
          > What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
          > reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
          > There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
          > grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
          > Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.
          >
          > Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
          > unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
          > important.
          >
          > It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
          > Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families
          with
          > the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
          > that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with
          the
          > same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important
          clue.
          >
          > I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
          > evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
          > smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a
          trail.
          >
          > Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.
          >
          > Bill
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@> wrote:
          > >
          > > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
          > September 17,
          > > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Bill Tarkulich
          Hi, I found them - can you please get us bigger images; they are too small to read. Danger! Danger! Danger! Treat all typewritten documents with great
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
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            Hi,
            I found them - can you please get us bigger images; they are too
            small to read.

            Danger! Danger! Danger! Treat all typewritten documents with great
            suspicion. They are undoubtedly transcribed from something else.
            What port did they depart from? Germany? Hungary/Trieste? Other?

            Bill = Don't worry, I won't be afraid....

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Bill,
            > My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album.
            > Sue
            > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
            > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
            >
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
            > <bill.tarkulich@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Sue,
            > > I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
            > > and genealogy dates" !!!!
            > >
            > > What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
            > > reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
            > > There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
            > > grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
            > > Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.
            > >
            > > Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
            > > unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
            > > important.
            > >
            > > It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
            > > Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families
            > with
            > > the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
            > > that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with
            > the
            > > same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important
            > clue.
            > >
            > > I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
            > > evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
            > > smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a
            > trail.
            > >
            > > Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.
            > >
            > > Bill
            > >
            > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
            > > September 17,
            > > > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Bill Tarkulich
            OK, I know why I m confused now. I think you may be confusing two family groups. I went to the EI site and looked at the Amalia 1907 manifest. Did you look
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
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              OK, I know why I'm confused now. I think you may be confusing two
              family groups.
              I went to the EI site and looked at the Amalia 1907 manifest. Did you
              look at the whole page? There are both TOTH and TAR all from HALABOR
              on the same manifest. They are several lines apart, but the same
              page. Hmmmm. I smell a rat. Whenever I find a manifest of interest,
              I quickly scan the entire manifest for other clues such as people from
              the same village or same surname, just broken apart. The
              transcription process to create the database is sadly lacking, and
              introduced many errors in it. I recommend your next step is to quicly
              review every manifest page.

              My GM's cousins had their records transposed - they were right next to
              each other, one was married, the other not.

              I have a feeling some confusion occurred at manifest creation time.
              I would also give you some tips on searching for variants in EIDB:
              http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/EIDB_Errors.htm

              I will leave the next steps to you.


              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Bill,
              > My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album.
              > Sue
              > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
              > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
              >
              >
              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
              > <bill.tarkulich@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Sue,
              > > I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
              > > and genealogy dates" !!!!
              > >
              > > What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
              > > reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
              > > There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
              > > grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
              > > Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.
              > >
              > > Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
              > > unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
              > > important.
              > >
              > > It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
              > > Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families
              > with
              > > the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
              > > that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with
              > the
              > > same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important
              > clue.
              > >
              > > I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
              > > evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
              > > smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a
              > trail.
              > >
              > > Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.
              > >
              > > Bill
              > >
              > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
              > > September 17,
              > > > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Bill Tarkulich
              All these TARs are from Halabor, different years: All these TOTH are from Halabor, different years. Residence Age Born* Arrived Passenger Record Tar, Amalia
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
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                All these TARs are from Halabor, different years:
                All these TOTH are from Halabor, different years.

                Residence Age Born* Arrived Passenger
                Record
                Tar, Amalia Halabor 18 1889 1907
                Tar, Paula Halabor, Hungary 3 1907 1910
                Tar, Roza Halabor, Hungary 30 1880 1910
                Tar, Zsigmond Halabor 28 1878 1906
                Toth, Ilonka Halabor, Cz. Slov. 17 1904 1921
                Toth, Josef Halabor 38 1865 1903
                Toth, Jozsef Halabor 43 1864 1907
                Toth, Jozsef Halabor, Hungary 48 1865 1913
                Toth, Samuel Halabor, Hungary 49 1863 1912
                Toth, Schmul Halabor 45 1862 1907


                And I haven't even tried name variations/misspellings yet!





                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                >
                > OK, I know why I'm confused now. I think you may be confusing two
                > family groups.
                > I went to the EI site and looked at the Amalia 1907 manifest. Did you
                > look at the whole page? There are both TOTH and TAR all from HALABOR
                > on the same manifest. They are several lines apart, but the same
                > page. Hmmmm. I smell a rat. Whenever I find a manifest of interest,
                > I quickly scan the entire manifest for other clues such as people from
                > the same village or same surname, just broken apart. The
                > transcription process to create the database is sadly lacking, and
                > introduced many errors in it. I recommend your next step is to quicly
                > review every manifest page.
                >
                > My GM's cousins had their records transposed - they were right next to
                > each other, one was married, the other not.
                >
                > I have a feeling some confusion occurred at manifest creation time.
                > I would also give you some tips on searching for variants in EIDB:
                > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/EIDB_Errors.htm
                >
                > I will leave the next steps to you.
                >
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Bill,
                > > My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album.
                > > Sue
                > > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                > > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                > > <bill.tarkulich@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Sue,
                > > > I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
                > > > and genealogy dates" !!!!
                > > >
                > > > What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
                > > > reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
                > > > There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
                > > > grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
                > > > Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.
                > > >
                > > > Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
                > > > unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
                > > > important.
                > > >
                > > > It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
                > > > Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families
                > > with
                > > > the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
                > > > that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with
                > > the
                > > > same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important
                > > clue.
                > > >
                > > > I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
                > > > evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
                > > > smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a
                > > trail.
                > > >
                > > > Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.
                > > >
                > > > Bill
                > > >
                > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
                > > > September 17,
                > > > > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Adrienne Sowards
                I ve been watching the Erdelyi posts with interest. I have ancestors by the name of Cverdel/Czverdely/Sverdel (and variations thereof) from Bardejov, Slovakia.
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 17, 2008
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                  I've been watching the Erdelyi posts with interest.

                  I have ancestors by the name of Cverdel/Czverdely/Sverdel (and variations thereof) from Bardejov, Slovakia. What are the chances that Cverdel is related to the name Erdelyi, or "from Transylvania?"

                  I know one Cverdel relative moved to Budapest (circa 1900) and changed his last name to a variation of Erdelyi. Unfortunately I have to go find the documentation on that - I don't have it with me right now!

                  But I would love to know where Cverdel/Sverdel comes from. It's very unusual. So far I've found just one family still going by the name Cverdely!

                  Thanks,
                  Adrienne









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                • Adrienne Sowards
                  Still wondering about the Erdelyi/Czverdely connection. This document (http://www.nhmus.hu/~pappmin/tmh7_390-420_adattar5.pdf) contains a photo of a distant
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 18, 2008
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                    Still wondering about the Erdelyi/Czverdely connection.

                    This document (http://www.nhmus.hu/~pappmin/tmh7_390-420_adattar5.pdf) contains a photo of a distant cousin of mine who changed his name from Czverdely to Erdelyi when he moved from Slovakia to Hungary.

                    I'm wondering if he chose the last name "Erdelyi" just because he thought it was a good name, or if it has a connection with Czverdely.







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                  • william gura
                    anyone have any good information about tours in slovakia??? i want to take the back roads and visit the small villages and try to find old family ties in the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 18, 2008
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                      anyone have any good information about tours in slovakia??? i want to take the back roads and visit the small villages and try to find old family ties in the spis region... in the villages of either vlachy or the magura range area//// thanks



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                    • Margo Smith
                      Contact Helene Cincebeaux at helenezx@aol.com william gura wrote: anyone have any good information about tours in slovakia??? i want
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 20, 2008
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                        Contact Helene Cincebeaux at helenezx@...

                        william gura <wgura@...> wrote: anyone have any good information about tours in slovakia??? i want to take the back roads and visit the small villages and try to find old family ties in the spis region... in the villages of either vlachy or the magura range area//// thanks


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