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New to the Group/ Erdelyi

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  • Sue
    Hi list, I m new to the group and just wanted to introduce myself. My family name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary. My g grandfather was Karoly OR
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
      Hi list,
      I'm new to the group and just wanted to introduce myself. My family
      name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary.

      My g grandfather was Karoly OR Charles Erdelyi Born: 15 Aug 1887
      Badalo, Austria, Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1978 Riverview, Wayne Co,
      Michigan, United States. His parents were Ladislaus Erdelyi and Julia
      Orosz this is all I know about them they never came to the states.
      Karoly had a sister named Claudia Erdelyi. I don't know if Claudia ever
      came to the states.

      My g grandmother was Juliska OR Julia Toth Born: 3 Aug 1888
      Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 26 Mar 1986 Michigan, United States.
      Her parents were Badent Toth and Susanna Zusy Papp this is all I know
      about them they never came to the states.

      She had two sisters that came to the states also Esther Toth Born: 9
      Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1968 Detroit, Wayne
      Co., Michigan, United States.

      And Helen Toth, Helen died in Michigan I have no dates of birth/death.

      Other sibling that never came to the states were Ferenc (Frank), Kalman
      (Coloman) and Ida Toth. This is all I know about them.

      I have been doing genealogy for about 20 years and I'm hoping to find
      out a little more about my Hungarian heritage. This is a part of my
      family I didn't get to grow up with so I don't know much about them.

      Thanks for the invite.
      Sue

      Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
      Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
    • johnqadam
      ... 9 Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse [s/b Megye] Hungary
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 12, 2008
        >>> She had two sisters that came to the states also Esther Toth Born:
        9 Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse [s/b Megye] Hungary<<<

        LDS has Reformed Church records (births, marriages, deaths) for Halabor
        (aka Halabér), Bereg, Hungary; later Hrabarov (aka Halábor), Berehovo,
        Podkarpatská Rus, Czechoslovakia; now Hrabarove (aka Hrabarovo and
        Hrabariv), Berehove, Zakarpattia, Ukriane.

        >>> My family name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary.<<<

        LDS has Reformed Church records (births, marriages, deaths,
        confirmations) for Badaló (aka Badalló), Bereg, Hungary; later Bodolov
        (aka Badaló), Berehovo, Podkarpatská Rus, Czechoslovakia; now Bodoliv,
        Berehove, Zakarpattia, Ukriane.
      • Janet Kozlay
        Unfortunately these records appear to be very scanty and spotty. And except for confirmations, they do not go beyond 1870 for Halabor and 1865 for Badalo. I
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 12, 2008
          Unfortunately these records appear to be very scanty and spotty. And except
          for confirmations, they do not go beyond 1870 for Halabor and 1865 for
          Badalo. I understand that Ukraine is finally beginning to open up its
          records for microfilming, but it may be a while before more recent ones
          become available through LDS.



          These neighboring villages, in old Bereg County, can be seen on the old map
          at http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/bereg.jpg, in the green section
          south of Beregszasz, on the Tisza River.



          The name Erdelyi means “from Erdely,” which is the Hungarian name for
          Transylvania.



          _____

          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of johnqadam
          Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:19 AM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [S-R] Re: New to the Group/ Erdelyi



          >>> She had two sisters that came to the states also Esther Toth Born:
          9 Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse [s/b Megye] Hungary<<<

          LDS has Reformed Church records (births, marriages, deaths) for Halabor
          (aka Halabér), Bereg, Hungary; later Hrabarov (aka Halábor), Berehovo,
          Podkarpatská Rus, Czechoslovakia; now Hrabarove (aka Hrabarovo and
          Hrabariv), Berehove, Zakarpattia, Ukriane.

          >>> My family name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary.<<<

          LDS has Reformed Church records (births, marriages, deaths,
          confirmations) for Badaló (aka Badalló), Bereg, Hungary; later Bodolov
          (aka Badaló), Berehovo, Podkarpatská Rus, Czechoslovakia; now Bodoliv,
          Berehove, Zakarpattia, Ukriane.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bill Tarkulich
          Hello sue and welcome to the group. Let s begin and focus on the most important fact: the village name and location. Once you have this correct, other doors
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 12, 2008
            Hello sue and welcome to the group.
            Let's begin and focus on the most important fact: the village name and
            location. Once you have this correct, other doors will open, since
            files are organized geographically and nationally. "Austria-Hungary"
            was a pact between two governments. The citizens country of origin
            was either Austria or Hungary. That begins to narrow things down
            quickly,

            I have the most knowledge about searching for European records, I'm
            not much help searching once they got to the USA.

            1. Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary
            Bereg Meyge - Bereg county in the old country of Hungary (until
            1918/end of WWI) Bereg county, Tiszahati district in now in Ukraine.
            The modern day name is Halabor, Ukraine. In 1910, the population was
            508, all of them declared to be Magyar (Hungarian). There were 13
            greek catholic, 479 Reformed, 9 Jews. Congratulations on getting the
            spelling correct, most people don't!


            2. Badalo, "Austria, Hungary"
            Badalo was also in Bereg County, Tiszahati district, now in Ukraine.
            Present day name is BADALOVO, Ukraine 1910 POP 1107, 1090 Magyar, 10
            greek catholic, 1010 reformed, 77 jews.

            Pull out a map and see if these two village are near each other, I'll
            bet they are. Old Munkacs (Muchaevo) is in old Bereg county to help
            you locate. I've put some map pointers here
            http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/maps.htm

            Others can help you from here. I gotta run.
            Good luck.

            Bill


            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi list,
            > I'm new to the group and just wanted to introduce myself. My family
            > name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary.
            >
            > My g grandfather was Karoly OR Charles Erdelyi Born: 15 Aug 1887
            > Badalo, Austria, Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1978 Riverview, Wayne Co,
            > Michigan, United States. His parents were Ladislaus Erdelyi and Julia
            > Orosz this is all I know about them they never came to the states.
            > Karoly had a sister named Claudia Erdelyi. I don't know if Claudia ever
            > came to the states.
            >
            > My g grandmother was Juliska OR Julia Toth Born: 3 Aug 1888
            > Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 26 Mar 1986 Michigan, United States.
            > Her parents were Badent Toth and Susanna Zusy Papp this is all I know
            > about them they never came to the states.
            >
            > She had two sisters that came to the states also Esther Toth Born: 9
            > Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1968 Detroit, Wayne
            > Co., Michigan, United States.
            >
            > And Helen Toth, Helen died in Michigan I have no dates of birth/death.
            >
            > Other sibling that never came to the states were Ferenc (Frank), Kalman
            > (Coloman) and Ida Toth. This is all I know about them.
            >
            > I have been doing genealogy for about 20 years and I'm hoping to find
            > out a little more about my Hungarian heritage. This is a part of my
            > family I didn't get to grow up with so I don't know much about them.
            >
            > Thanks for the invite.
            > Sue
            >
            > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
            > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
            >
          • Kathy Cox
            On the map of this link: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/bereg.jpg Badalo is due south of Beregszasz and Halabor is to the right of that on the Tisza
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 12, 2008
              On the map of this link: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/bereg.jpg
              Badalo is due south of Beregszasz and Halabor is to the right of that on the Tisza River.
              Kathy Cox


              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.comFrom: bill.tarkulich@...: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:33:20 +0000Subject: [S-R] Re: New to the Group/ Erdelyi




              Hello sue and welcome to the group.Let's begin and focus on the most important fact: the village name andlocation. Once you have this correct, other doors will open, sincefiles are organized geographically and nationally. "Austria-Hungary"was a pact between two governments. The citizens country of originwas either Austria or Hungary. That begins to narrow things downquickly, I have the most knowledge about searching for European records, I'mnot much help searching once they got to the USA.1. Halabor Bereg Meyse HungaryBereg Meyge - Bereg county in the old country of Hungary (until1918/end of WWI) Bereg county, Tiszahati district in now in Ukraine. The modern day name is Halabor, Ukraine. In 1910, the population was508, all of them declared to be Magyar (Hungarian). There were 13greek catholic, 479 Reformed, 9 Jews. Congratulations on getting thespelling correct, most people don't!2. Badalo, "Austria, Hungary"Badalo was also in Bereg County, Tiszahati district, now in Ukraine.Present day name is BADALOVO, Ukraine 1910 POP 1107, 1090 Magyar, 10greek catholic, 1010 reformed, 77 jews.Pull out a map and see if these two village are near each other, I'llbet they are. Old Munkacs (Muchaevo) is in old Bereg county to helpyou locate. I've put some map pointers herehttp://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/maps.htmOthers can help you from here. I gotta run.Good luck.Bill--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@...> wrote:>> Hi list,> I'm new to the group and just wanted to introduce myself. My family > name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary. > > My g grandfather was Karoly OR Charles Erdelyi Born: 15 Aug 1887 > Badalo, Austria, Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1978 Riverview, Wayne Co, > Michigan, United States. His parents were Ladislaus Erdelyi and Julia > Orosz this is all I know about them they never came to the states. > Karoly had a sister named Claudia Erdelyi. I don't know if Claudia ever > came to the states.> > My g grandmother was Juliska OR Julia Toth Born: 3 Aug 1888> Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 26 Mar 1986 Michigan, United States. > Her parents were Badent Toth and Susanna Zusy Papp this is all I know > about them they never came to the states. > > She had two sisters that came to the states also Esther Toth Born: 9 > Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1968 Detroit, Wayne > Co., Michigan, United States. > > And Helen Toth, Helen died in Michigan I have no dates of birth/death.> > Other sibling that never came to the states were Ferenc (Frank), Kalman > (Coloman) and Ida Toth. This is all I know about them. > > I have been doing genealogy for about 20 years and I'm hoping to find > out a little more about my Hungarian heritage. This is a part of my > family I didn't get to grow up with so I don't know much about them. > > Thanks for the invite.> Sue > > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.> Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/>







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sue
              Hi All, Thank you to all that answered my post. The map helped a lot, thanks. I no nothing about the old country, and did not know that it was now the Ukraine.
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 12, 2008
                Hi All,
                Thank you to all that answered my post. The map helped a lot,
                thanks. I no nothing about the old country, and did not know that it
                was now the Ukraine.

                My g grandparents came to the U.S. prior to 1910. I know my g
                grandmother came in 1907 I have her Intent Papers I think my g
                grandfather came that same year but I have no documentation for this
                fact I do have the 1910 census with him on it. They met here and were
                married either in PA or MI.

                Why would someone change their name to travel from the old country to
                the US my g grandmother came under the name of Amelia Tar when in
                fact her name was Julia Toth. She was not traveling alone she came
                with the Tar family. I don't understand why she wouldn't use at least
                her first name.

                Question: The name Erdelyi means "from Erdely," which is the
                Hungarian name for Transylvania. Does this mean that the family
                originated from Transylvania or just took on the last name of the
                place? Or could it mean both, like in other country's.

                Sue
                Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/



                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello sue and welcome to the group.
                > Let's begin and focus on the most important fact: the village name
                and
                > location. Once you have this correct, other doors will open, since
                > files are organized geographically and nationally. "Austria-Hungary"
                > was a pact between two governments. The citizens country of origin
                > was either Austria or Hungary. That begins to narrow things down
                > quickly,
                >
                > I have the most knowledge about searching for European records, I'm
                > not much help searching once they got to the USA.
                >
                > 1. Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary
                > Bereg Meyge - Bereg county in the old country of Hungary (until
                > 1918/end of WWI) Bereg county, Tiszahati district in now in
                Ukraine.
                > The modern day name is Halabor, Ukraine. In 1910, the population
                was
                > 508, all of them declared to be Magyar (Hungarian). There were 13
                > greek catholic, 479 Reformed, 9 Jews. Congratulations on getting the
                > spelling correct, most people don't!
                >
                >
                > 2. Badalo, "Austria, Hungary"
                > Badalo was also in Bereg County, Tiszahati district, now in
                Ukraine.
                > Present day name is BADALOVO, Ukraine 1910 POP 1107, 1090 Magyar, 10
                > greek catholic, 1010 reformed, 77 jews.
                >
                > Pull out a map and see if these two village are near each other,
                I'll
                > bet they are. Old Munkacs (Muchaevo) is in old Bereg county to help
                > you locate. I've put some map pointers here
                > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/maps.htm
                >
                > Others can help you from here. I gotta run.
                > Good luck.
                >
                > Bill
                >
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi list,
                > > I'm new to the group and just wanted to introduce myself. My
                family
                > > name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary.
                > >
                > > My g grandfather was Karoly OR Charles Erdelyi Born: 15 Aug 1887
                > > Badalo, Austria, Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1978 Riverview, Wayne Co,
                > > Michigan, United States. His parents were Ladislaus Erdelyi and
                Julia
                > > Orosz this is all I know about them they never came to the
                states.
                > > Karoly had a sister named Claudia Erdelyi. I don't know if
                Claudia ever
                > > came to the states.
                > >
                > > My g grandmother was Juliska OR Julia Toth Born: 3 Aug 1888
                > > Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 26 Mar 1986 Michigan, United
                States.
                > > Her parents were Badent Toth and Susanna Zusy Papp this is all I
                know
                > > about them they never came to the states.
                > >
                > > She had two sisters that came to the states also Esther Toth
                Born: 9
                > > Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1968 Detroit,
                Wayne
                > > Co., Michigan, United States.
                > >
                > > And Helen Toth, Helen died in Michigan I have no dates of
                birth/death.
                > >
                > > Other sibling that never came to the states were Ferenc (Frank),
                Kalman
                > > (Coloman) and Ida Toth. This is all I know about them.
                > >
                > > I have been doing genealogy for about 20 years and I'm hoping to
                find
                > > out a little more about my Hungarian heritage. This is a part of
                my
                > > family I didn't get to grow up with so I don't know much about
                them.
                > >
                > > Thanks for the invite.
                > > Sue
                > >
                > > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with
                lanterns.
                > > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                > >
                >
              • Bill Tarkulich
                Hello Sue, It is very prudent when examining historical documents to identify corroborating evidence before you take written data as fact. In that era, the
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                  Hello Sue,

                  It is very prudent when examining historical documents to identify
                  corroborating evidence before you take written data as fact.

                  In that era, the notion of "positive identification" was not as robust
                  as we know it today. There was no such thing as photo identification,
                  and, in fact, people were oftentimes fairly sloppy in the rendering of
                  their names, especially if they were illiterate.

                  I am very skeptical to believe data on these early forms until I have
                  a second, independent piece of evidence which corroborates the fact.
                  Not to say that many, if not most are not correct. In fact, most are.
                  But people do themselves a disservice by grabbing the first name they
                  see and embracing it as fact. I've seen way too many "wild goose
                  chases", where they reach dead ends, and eventually abandon the
                  search. "What a pity", as they say in the old country.

                  Why? There are so many reasons why the name is wrong. If you have
                  been researching genealogy for any length of time, you know that
                  errors could have been introduced anywhere along the way.
                  - The immigrant was illiterate and depended on someone else to do the
                  entry.
                  - poor/illegible handwriting
                  - transcription error
                  - "sounds like" error
                  - the desire to "Americanize" the word

                  So you ask yourself, "why is he saying all of that?" Simply put, the
                  names look very much similar handwriting.
                  "Amelia Tar"
                  "Julia Toth"
                  In my mind, based upon reading thousands of handwritten manifests and
                  other documents, these could very well be the same name, one rendered
                  with very bad handwriting. Of course I could be wrong, but that is
                  the beauty of critical analysis. We pose a hypothesis and then
                  attempt to prove or disprove it.

                  So I now ask for more evidence. If you want us to help, we need to
                  set the context - we cannot help when we have words in a vacuum.

                  - What document did you get this information from?
                  - When and where was each document created?
                  - Who created each document?
                  - Was it typed or handwritten?
                  - Who transcribed the words to this page?
                  - Where did you get the document from?

                  The next step, probably the most important, is to scan and share any
                  handwritten documents to this group. Handwriting analysis is an art,
                  mastered largely by those who have looked at thousands of variations.
                  Second, having the opinion of a half-dozen people, trained or not,
                  can help validate that the interpretation is correct.

                  With regard to your second question about the name "Erdelyi." Unless
                  your family were noblemen, it is extremely risky and unfair to make
                  assumptions about their use of the name. In Central Europe, most
                  families took on surnames by about the 16th century. Over the
                  successive centuries, names morphed, letters changed, families
                  intermarried. Any etymology study of European surnames will more
                  often than not, find many families with the same surnames, living
                  hundreds of miles apart, being entirely un-related by blood. Why the
                  surname may in fact, literally mean, "From Transylvania" (which is of
                  course modern-day Romania), it may bear little or no relationship to
                  the family who bears that name today.

                  Good Luck,
                  Bill Tarkulich


                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi All,
                  > Thank you to all that answered my post. The map helped a lot,
                  > thanks. I no nothing about the old country, and did not know that it
                  > was now the Ukraine.
                  >
                  > My g grandparents came to the U.S. prior to 1910. I know my g
                  > grandmother came in 1907 I have her Intent Papers I think my g
                  > grandfather came that same year but I have no documentation for this
                  > fact I do have the 1910 census with him on it. They met here and were
                  > married either in PA or MI.
                  >
                  > Why would someone change their name to travel from the old country to
                  > the US my g grandmother came under the name of Amelia Tar when in
                  > fact her name was Julia Toth. She was not traveling alone she came
                  > with the Tar family. I don't understand why she wouldn't use at least
                  > her first name.
                  >
                  > Question: The name Erdelyi means "from Erdely," which is the
                  > Hungarian name for Transylvania. Does this mean that the family
                  > originated from Transylvania or just took on the last name of the
                  > place? Or could it mean both, like in other country's.
                  >
                  > Sue
                  > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                  > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                  > <bill.tarkulich@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello sue and welcome to the group.
                  > > Let's begin and focus on the most important fact: the village name
                  > and
                  > > location. Once you have this correct, other doors will open, since
                  > > files are organized geographically and nationally. "Austria-Hungary"
                  > > was a pact between two governments. The citizens country of origin
                  > > was either Austria or Hungary. That begins to narrow things down
                  > > quickly,
                  > >
                  > > I have the most knowledge about searching for European records, I'm
                  > > not much help searching once they got to the USA.
                  > >
                  > > 1. Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary
                  > > Bereg Meyge - Bereg county in the old country of Hungary (until
                  > > 1918/end of WWI) Bereg county, Tiszahati district in now in
                  > Ukraine.
                  > > The modern day name is Halabor, Ukraine. In 1910, the population
                  > was
                  > > 508, all of them declared to be Magyar (Hungarian). There were 13
                  > > greek catholic, 479 Reformed, 9 Jews. Congratulations on getting the
                  > > spelling correct, most people don't!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 2. Badalo, "Austria, Hungary"
                  > > Badalo was also in Bereg County, Tiszahati district, now in
                  > Ukraine.
                  > > Present day name is BADALOVO, Ukraine 1910 POP 1107, 1090 Magyar, 10
                  > > greek catholic, 1010 reformed, 77 jews.
                  > >
                  > > Pull out a map and see if these two village are near each other,
                  > I'll
                  > > bet they are. Old Munkacs (Muchaevo) is in old Bereg county to help
                  > > you locate. I've put some map pointers here
                  > > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/maps.htm
                  > >
                  > > Others can help you from here. I gotta run.
                  > > Good luck.
                  > >
                  > > Bill
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi list,
                  > > > I'm new to the group and just wanted to introduce myself. My
                  > family
                  > > > name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary.
                  > > >
                  > > > My g grandfather was Karoly OR Charles Erdelyi Born: 15 Aug 1887
                  > > > Badalo, Austria, Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1978 Riverview, Wayne Co,
                  > > > Michigan, United States. His parents were Ladislaus Erdelyi and
                  > Julia
                  > > > Orosz this is all I know about them they never came to the
                  > states.
                  > > > Karoly had a sister named Claudia Erdelyi. I don't know if
                  > Claudia ever
                  > > > came to the states.
                  > > >
                  > > > My g grandmother was Juliska OR Julia Toth Born: 3 Aug 1888
                  > > > Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 26 Mar 1986 Michigan, United
                  > States.
                  > > > Her parents were Badent Toth and Susanna Zusy Papp this is all I
                  > know
                  > > > about them they never came to the states.
                  > > >
                  > > > She had two sisters that came to the states also Esther Toth
                  > Born: 9
                  > > > Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1968 Detroit,
                  > Wayne
                  > > > Co., Michigan, United States.
                  > > >
                  > > > And Helen Toth, Helen died in Michigan I have no dates of
                  > birth/death.
                  > > >
                  > > > Other sibling that never came to the states were Ferenc (Frank),
                  > Kalman
                  > > > (Coloman) and Ida Toth. This is all I know about them.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have been doing genealogy for about 20 years and I'm hoping to
                  > find
                  > > > out a little more about my Hungarian heritage. This is a part of
                  > my
                  > > > family I didn't get to grow up with so I don't know much about
                  > them.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for the invite.
                  > > > Sue
                  > > >
                  > > > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with
                  > lanterns.
                  > > > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Janet Kozlay
                  Dear Sue, I took a look at Amalia Tar s manifest from 1907, and the name is written quite clearly there. She was going to her brother, Zigmont, in
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                    Dear Sue,



                    I took a look at Amalia Tar's manifest from 1907, and the name is written
                    quite clearly there. She was going to her brother, Zigmont, in Kreisherville
                    NY. Zsigmond immigrated in 1906 to his brother-in-law Istvan Szasz, also in
                    Kreisherville. On the same ship with Amalia were Peter Tar, Zsigmond's
                    brother, and Balint Tar, Zsigmond's cousin, destination Staten Island (which
                    is the same as Kreisherville). Zsigmond's wife, Roza (maiden name Szasz),
                    and daughter, Paula, joined him in 1907.



                    My immediate question would be why you believe Amalia Tar is your Julia
                    Toth?



                    Toth is one of the most common of Hungarian family names. Nevertheless, I
                    have not been able to find immigration records for your Julia, Esther, or
                    Helen Toth from Halabor. If you have located them, where have you found them
                    (dates, ship names, spelling of names)?



                    The only Karoly Erdelyi I could find in the immigration records that
                    corresponds to your data immigrated on February 2, 1906, to Redington PA.
                    His last residence was Adorjanhaza, which is in Veszprem county. Veszprem is
                    a considerable distance from Bereg. However, it is still possible, since he
                    could have moved from his place of birth.



                    By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on September 17,
                    1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.



                    People did move around, sometimes more than we tend to give them credit for.
                    While there are families who have lived in the same village for many
                    generations, even hundreds of years, other family names may pop up suddenly
                    in a village, and just as suddenly, disappear. Perhaps these families tended
                    to be more restless, or adventuresome, or desperate, than others, willing to
                    strike out for better conditions elsewhere. It might not be surprising to
                    find such families represented in greater numbers among the immigrants.
                    Therefore, one cannot be certain that an immigrant's last residence was also
                    his place of birth.



                    As for Erdelyi meaning "from Erdely," I did not mean to suggest that you
                    could ever find the family's roots in Transylvania. As Bill pointed out,
                    people began taking family names around the 16th century. Most commonly the
                    names derived from a physical or personality attribute (e.g., Kis, meaning
                    little), an occupation (e.g., Kovacs, meaning blacksmith), or a place where
                    they came from (e.g., Budai, meaning from Buda). The purpose, of course, was
                    to distinguish them in some way from the many others with the same given
                    name. It is certainly conceivable that Karoly's ancient ancestors were "from
                    Erdely." But this serves only to be an interesting piece of information, not
                    anything that would be useful genealogically.



                    Janet





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sue
                    Hello Bill, I have been doing family research for many years, just never on this line of my family until now. Most of my other family comes from England and
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                      Hello Bill,

                      I have been doing family research for many years, just never on this
                      line of my family until now. Most of my other family comes from
                      England and have been in the US since the 1630's. I also have family
                      from Canada and they were there since late 1700's before that in
                      Wales. I whole heatedly understand researching in these areas is much
                      easier. Sorry if I jumped the gun on posting.

                      I up-loaded to the photo section under Erdelyi, the Record of
                      Detained Aliens for Amelia Tar and the Declaration of Intention
                      papers for Julia Toth ( Julia Szabo being her married name). I
                      received both of these copies from other family members. We have
                      other photos of Julia and know for a fact that this is her
                      Declaration of Intention papers. NOTE: The Declaration of Intention
                      mentions that she came to the US under the name of Tar, Amalia this
                      led me to believe that I had corroborating evidence.

                      I appreciate your time in this matter.
                      Sue
                      Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                      Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/




                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                      <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Sue,
                      >
                      > It is very prudent when examining historical documents to identify
                      > corroborating evidence before you take written data as fact.
                      >
                      > In that era, the notion of "positive identification" was not as
                      robust
                      > as we know it today. There was no such thing as photo
                      identification,
                      > and, in fact, people were oftentimes fairly sloppy in the rendering
                      of
                      > their names, especially if they were illiterate.
                      >
                      > I am very skeptical to believe data on these early forms until I
                      have
                      > a second, independent piece of evidence which corroborates the
                      fact.
                      > Not to say that many, if not most are not correct. In fact, most
                      are.
                      > But people do themselves a disservice by grabbing the first name
                      they
                      > see and embracing it as fact. I've seen way too many "wild goose
                      > chases", where they reach dead ends, and eventually abandon the
                      > search. "What a pity", as they say in the old country.
                      >
                      > Why? There are so many reasons why the name is wrong. If you have
                      > been researching genealogy for any length of time, you know that
                      > errors could have been introduced anywhere along the way.
                      > - The immigrant was illiterate and depended on someone else to do
                      the
                      > entry.
                      > - poor/illegible handwriting
                      > - transcription error
                      > - "sounds like" error
                      > - the desire to "Americanize" the word
                      >
                      > So you ask yourself, "why is he saying all of that?" Simply put,
                      the
                      > names look very much similar handwriting.
                      > "Amelia Tar"
                      > "Julia Toth"
                      > In my mind, based upon reading thousands of handwritten manifests
                      and
                      > other documents, these could very well be the same name, one
                      rendered
                      > with very bad handwriting. Of course I could be wrong, but that is
                      > the beauty of critical analysis. We pose a hypothesis and then
                      > attempt to prove or disprove it.
                      >
                      > So I now ask for more evidence. If you want us to help, we need to
                      > set the context - we cannot help when we have words in a vacuum.
                      >
                      > - What document did you get this information from?
                      > - When and where was each document created?
                      > - Who created each document?
                      > - Was it typed or handwritten?
                      > - Who transcribed the words to this page?
                      > - Where did you get the document from?
                      >
                      > The next step, probably the most important, is to scan and share any
                      > handwritten documents to this group. Handwriting analysis is an
                      art,
                      > mastered largely by those who have looked at thousands of
                      variations.
                      > Second, having the opinion of a half-dozen people, trained or not,
                      > can help validate that the interpretation is correct.
                      >
                      > With regard to your second question about the name "Erdelyi."
                      Unless
                      > your family were noblemen, it is extremely risky and unfair to make
                      > assumptions about their use of the name. In Central Europe, most
                      > families took on surnames by about the 16th century. Over the
                      > successive centuries, names morphed, letters changed, families
                      > intermarried. Any etymology study of European surnames will more
                      > often than not, find many families with the same surnames, living
                      > hundreds of miles apart, being entirely un-related by blood. Why
                      the
                      > surname may in fact, literally mean, "From Transylvania" (which is
                      of
                      > course modern-day Romania), it may bear little or no relationship to
                      > the family who bears that name today.
                      >
                      > Good Luck,
                      > Bill Tarkulich
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi All,
                      > > Thank you to all that answered my post. The map helped a lot,
                      > > thanks. I no nothing about the old country, and did not know that
                      it
                      > > was now the Ukraine.
                      > >
                      > > My g grandparents came to the U.S. prior to 1910. I know my g
                      > > grandmother came in 1907 I have her Intent Papers I think my g
                      > > grandfather came that same year but I have no documentation for
                      this
                      > > fact I do have the 1910 census with him on it. They met here and
                      were
                      > > married either in PA or MI.
                      > >
                      > > Why would someone change their name to travel from the old
                      country to
                      > > the US my g grandmother came under the name of Amelia Tar when in
                      > > fact her name was Julia Toth. She was not traveling alone she
                      came
                      > > with the Tar family. I don't understand why she wouldn't use at
                      least
                      > > her first name.
                      > >
                      > > Question: The name Erdelyi means "from Erdely," which is the
                      > > Hungarian name for Transylvania. Does this mean that the family
                      > > originated from Transylvania or just took on the last name of the
                      > > place? Or could it mean both, like in other country's.
                      > >
                      > > Sue
                      > > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with
                      lanterns.
                      > > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                      > > <bill.tarkulich@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello sue and welcome to the group.
                      > > > Let's begin and focus on the most important fact: the village
                      name
                      > > and
                      > > > location. Once you have this correct, other doors will open,
                      since
                      > > > files are organized geographically and nationally. "Austria-
                      Hungary"
                      > > > was a pact between two governments. The citizens country of
                      origin
                      > > > was either Austria or Hungary. That begins to narrow things
                      down
                      > > > quickly,
                      > > >
                      > > > I have the most knowledge about searching for European records,
                      I'm
                      > > > not much help searching once they got to the USA.
                      > > >
                      > > > 1. Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary
                      > > > Bereg Meyge - Bereg county in the old country of Hungary (until
                      > > > 1918/end of WWI) Bereg county, Tiszahati district in now in
                      > > Ukraine.
                      > > > The modern day name is Halabor, Ukraine. In 1910, the
                      population
                      > > was
                      > > > 508, all of them declared to be Magyar (Hungarian). There were
                      13
                      > > > greek catholic, 479 Reformed, 9 Jews. Congratulations on
                      getting the
                      > > > spelling correct, most people don't!
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > 2. Badalo, "Austria, Hungary"
                      > > > Badalo was also in Bereg County, Tiszahati district, now in
                      > > Ukraine.
                      > > > Present day name is BADALOVO, Ukraine 1910 POP 1107, 1090
                      Magyar, 10
                      > > > greek catholic, 1010 reformed, 77 jews.
                      > > >
                      > > > Pull out a map and see if these two village are near each
                      other,
                      > > I'll
                      > > > bet they are. Old Munkacs (Muchaevo) is in old Bereg county to
                      help
                      > > > you locate. I've put some map pointers here
                      > > > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/maps.htm
                      > > >
                      > > > Others can help you from here. I gotta run.
                      > > > Good luck.
                      > > >
                      > > > Bill
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi list,
                      > > > > I'm new to the group and just wanted to introduce myself. My
                      > > family
                      > > > > name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My g grandfather was Karoly OR Charles Erdelyi Born: 15 Aug
                      1887
                      > > > > Badalo, Austria, Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1978 Riverview, Wayne
                      Co,
                      > > > > Michigan, United States. His parents were Ladislaus Erdelyi
                      and
                      > > Julia
                      > > > > Orosz this is all I know about them they never came to the
                      > > states.
                      > > > > Karoly had a sister named Claudia Erdelyi. I don't know if
                      > > Claudia ever
                      > > > > came to the states.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My g grandmother was Juliska OR Julia Toth Born: 3 Aug 1888
                      > > > > Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 26 Mar 1986 Michigan,
                      United
                      > > States.
                      > > > > Her parents were Badent Toth and Susanna Zusy Papp this is
                      all I
                      > > know
                      > > > > about them they never came to the states.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > She had two sisters that came to the states also Esther Toth
                      > > Born: 9
                      > > > > Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1968
                      Detroit,
                      > > Wayne
                      > > > > Co., Michigan, United States.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > And Helen Toth, Helen died in Michigan I have no dates of
                      > > birth/death.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Other sibling that never came to the states were Ferenc
                      (Frank),
                      > > Kalman
                      > > > > (Coloman) and Ida Toth. This is all I know about them.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have been doing genealogy for about 20 years and I'm
                      hoping to
                      > > find
                      > > > > out a little more about my Hungarian heritage. This is a part
                      of
                      > > my
                      > > > > family I didn't get to grow up with so I don't know much
                      about
                      > > them.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks for the invite.
                      > > > > Sue
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with
                      > > lanterns.
                      > > > > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                      > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Janet Kozlay
                      Dear Sue, I have read (was it on your website, Bill?) that sometimes passports were re-used. That is, after someone immigrated, he would send his passport
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                        Dear Sue,



                        I have read (was it on your website, Bill?) that sometimes passports were
                        "re-used." That is, after someone immigrated, he would send his passport
                        back home to be used by someone else, presumably saving money and/or red
                        tape. While this does not seem to apply here, perhaps Amalia did receive a
                        passport and decided for one reason or another not to emigrate, giving her
                        passport to Julia.



                        Otherwise, although name changing was common in Hungary, it was normally
                        only the family name that was changed. I know of only one instance where
                        both names were changed.



                        Janet



                        _____

                        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Sue
                        Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 12:49 PM
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [S-R] Re: New to the Group/ Erdelyi



                        Hello Bill,

                        I have been doing family research for many years, just never on this
                        line of my family until now. Most of my other family comes from
                        England and have been in the US since the 1630's. I also have family
                        from Canada and they were there since late 1700's before that in
                        Wales. I whole heatedly understand researching in these areas is much
                        easier. Sorry if I jumped the gun on posting.

                        I up-loaded to the photo section under Erdelyi, the Record of
                        Detained Aliens for Amelia Tar and the Declaration of Intention
                        papers for Julia Toth ( Julia Szabo being her married name). I
                        received both of these copies from other family members. We have
                        other photos of Julia and know for a fact that this is her
                        Declaration of Intention papers. NOTE: The Declaration of Intention
                        mentions that she came to the US under the name of Tar, Amalia this
                        led me to believe that I had corroborating evidence.

                        I appreciate your time in this matter.
                        Sue
                        Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                        Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                        http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/>
                        yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/

                        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                        <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Sue,
                        >
                        > It is very prudent when examining historical documents to identify
                        > corroborating evidence before you take written data as fact.
                        >
                        > In that era, the notion of "positive identification" was not as
                        robust
                        > as we know it today. There was no such thing as photo
                        identification,
                        > and, in fact, people were oftentimes fairly sloppy in the rendering
                        of
                        > their names, especially if they were illiterate.
                        >
                        > I am very skeptical to believe data on these early forms until I
                        have
                        > a second, independent piece of evidence which corroborates the
                        fact.
                        > Not to say that many, if not most are not correct. In fact, most
                        are.
                        > But people do themselves a disservice by grabbing the first name
                        they
                        > see and embracing it as fact. I've seen way too many "wild goose
                        > chases", where they reach dead ends, and eventually abandon the
                        > search. "What a pity", as they say in the old country.
                        >
                        > Why? There are so many reasons why the name is wrong. If you have
                        > been researching genealogy for any length of time, you know that
                        > errors could have been introduced anywhere along the way.
                        > - The immigrant was illiterate and depended on someone else to do
                        the
                        > entry.
                        > - poor/illegible handwriting
                        > - transcription error
                        > - "sounds like" error
                        > - the desire to "Americanize" the word
                        >
                        > So you ask yourself, "why is he saying all of that?" Simply put,
                        the
                        > names look very much similar handwriting.
                        > "Amelia Tar"
                        > "Julia Toth"
                        > In my mind, based upon reading thousands of handwritten manifests
                        and
                        > other documents, these could very well be the same name, one
                        rendered
                        > with very bad handwriting. Of course I could be wrong, but that is
                        > the beauty of critical analysis. We pose a hypothesis and then
                        > attempt to prove or disprove it.
                        >
                        > So I now ask for more evidence. If you want us to help, we need to
                        > set the context - we cannot help when we have words in a vacuum.
                        >
                        > - What document did you get this information from?
                        > - When and where was each document created?
                        > - Who created each document?
                        > - Was it typed or handwritten?
                        > - Who transcribed the words to this page?
                        > - Where did you get the document from?
                        >
                        > The next step, probably the most important, is to scan and share any
                        > handwritten documents to this group. Handwriting analysis is an
                        art,
                        > mastered largely by those who have looked at thousands of
                        variations.
                        > Second, having the opinion of a half-dozen people, trained or not,
                        > can help validate that the interpretation is correct.
                        >
                        > With regard to your second question about the name "Erdelyi."
                        Unless
                        > your family were noblemen, it is extremely risky and unfair to make
                        > assumptions about their use of the name. In Central Europe, most
                        > families took on surnames by about the 16th century. Over the
                        > successive centuries, names morphed, letters changed, families
                        > intermarried. Any etymology study of European surnames will more
                        > often than not, find many families with the same surnames, living
                        > hundreds of miles apart, being entirely un-related by blood. Why
                        the
                        > surname may in fact, literally mean, "From Transylvania" (which is
                        of
                        > course modern-day Romania), it may bear little or no relationship to
                        > the family who bears that name today.
                        >
                        > Good Luck,
                        > Bill Tarkulich
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi All,
                        > > Thank you to all that answered my post. The map helped a lot,
                        > > thanks. I no nothing about the old country, and did not know that
                        it
                        > > was now the Ukraine.
                        > >
                        > > My g grandparents came to the U.S. prior to 1910. I know my g
                        > > grandmother came in 1907 I have her Intent Papers I think my g
                        > > grandfather came that same year but I have no documentation for
                        this
                        > > fact I do have the 1910 census with him on it. They met here and
                        were
                        > > married either in PA or MI.
                        > >
                        > > Why would someone change their name to travel from the old
                        country to
                        > > the US my g grandmother came under the name of Amelia Tar when in
                        > > fact her name was Julia Toth. She was not traveling alone she
                        came
                        > > with the Tar family. I don't understand why she wouldn't use at
                        least
                        > > her first name.
                        > >
                        > > Question: The name Erdelyi means "from Erdely," which is the
                        > > Hungarian name for Transylvania. Does this mean that the family
                        > > originated from Transylvania or just took on the last name of the
                        > > place? Or could it mean both, like in other country's.
                        > >
                        > > Sue
                        > > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with
                        lanterns.
                        > > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                        > > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/>
                        yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                        > > <bill.tarkulich@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello sue and welcome to the group.
                        > > > Let's begin and focus on the most important fact: the village
                        name
                        > > and
                        > > > location. Once you have this correct, other doors will open,
                        since
                        > > > files are organized geographically and nationally. "Austria-
                        Hungary"
                        > > > was a pact between two governments. The citizens country of
                        origin
                        > > > was either Austria or Hungary. That begins to narrow things
                        down
                        > > > quickly,
                        > > >
                        > > > I have the most knowledge about searching for European records,
                        I'm
                        > > > not much help searching once they got to the USA.
                        > > >
                        > > > 1. Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary
                        > > > Bereg Meyge - Bereg county in the old country of Hungary (until
                        > > > 1918/end of WWI) Bereg county, Tiszahati district in now in
                        > > Ukraine.
                        > > > The modern day name is Halabor, Ukraine. In 1910, the
                        population
                        > > was
                        > > > 508, all of them declared to be Magyar (Hungarian). There were
                        13
                        > > > greek catholic, 479 Reformed, 9 Jews. Congratulations on
                        getting the
                        > > > spelling correct, most people don't!
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > 2. Badalo, "Austria, Hungary"
                        > > > Badalo was also in Bereg County, Tiszahati district, now in
                        > > Ukraine.
                        > > > Present day name is BADALOVO, Ukraine 1910 POP 1107, 1090
                        Magyar, 10
                        > > > greek catholic, 1010 reformed, 77 jews.
                        > > >
                        > > > Pull out a map and see if these two village are near each
                        other,
                        > > I'll
                        > > > bet they are. Old Munkacs (Muchaevo) is in old Bereg county to
                        help
                        > > > you locate. I've put some map pointers here
                        > > > http://www.iabsi. <http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/maps.htm>
                        com/gen/public/maps.htm
                        > > >
                        > > > Others can help you from here. I gotta run.
                        > > > Good luck.
                        > > >
                        > > > Bill
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hi list,
                        > > > > I'm new to the group and just wanted to introduce myself. My
                        > > family
                        > > > > name is Erdelyi from Badalo, Austria, Hungary.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > My g grandfather was Karoly OR Charles Erdelyi Born: 15 Aug
                        1887
                        > > > > Badalo, Austria, Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1978 Riverview, Wayne
                        Co,
                        > > > > Michigan, United States. His parents were Ladislaus Erdelyi
                        and
                        > > Julia
                        > > > > Orosz this is all I know about them they never came to the
                        > > states.
                        > > > > Karoly had a sister named Claudia Erdelyi. I don't know if
                        > > Claudia ever
                        > > > > came to the states.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > My g grandmother was Juliska OR Julia Toth Born: 3 Aug 1888
                        > > > > Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 26 Mar 1986 Michigan,
                        United
                        > > States.
                        > > > > Her parents were Badent Toth and Susanna Zusy Papp this is
                        all I
                        > > know
                        > > > > about them they never came to the states.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > She had two sisters that came to the states also Esther Toth
                        > > Born: 9
                        > > > > Dec 1885 Halabor Bereg Meyse Hungary Died: 21 Jan 1968
                        Detroit,
                        > > Wayne
                        > > > > Co., Michigan, United States.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > And Helen Toth, Helen died in Michigan I have no dates of
                        > > birth/death.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Other sibling that never came to the states were Ferenc
                        (Frank),
                        > > Kalman
                        > > > > (Coloman) and Ida Toth. This is all I know about them.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I have been doing genealogy for about 20 years and I'm
                        hoping to
                        > > find
                        > > > > out a little more about my Hungarian heritage. This is a part
                        of
                        > > my
                        > > > > family I didn't get to grow up with so I don't know much
                        about
                        > > them.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks for the invite.
                        > > > > Sue
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with
                        > > lanterns.
                        > > > > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                        > > > > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/>
                        yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Sue
                        Hi Janet, I have uploaded ALL records I have on this family to the photo section under Erdelyi Album. I also have ancestry.com world deluxe edition, so this is
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                          Hi Janet,
                          I have uploaded ALL records I have on this family to the photo
                          section under Erdelyi Album. I also have ancestry.com world deluxe
                          edition, so this is all I could find as well. I just found out that
                          his name was Karoly I did not know that this was the Hungarian
                          equivalent for Charles.
                          Thank for your input, this has helped tremendously.
                          Sue
                          Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                          Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/



                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Sue,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I took a look at Amalia Tar's manifest from 1907, and the name is
                          written
                          > quite clearly there. She was going to her brother, Zigmont, in
                          Kreisherville
                          > NY. Zsigmond immigrated in 1906 to his brother-in-law Istvan Szasz,
                          also in
                          > Kreisherville. On the same ship with Amalia were Peter Tar,
                          Zsigmond's
                          > brother, and Balint Tar, Zsigmond's cousin, destination Staten
                          Island (which
                          > is the same as Kreisherville). Zsigmond's wife, Roza (maiden name
                          Szasz),
                          > and daughter, Paula, joined him in 1907.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > My immediate question would be why you believe Amalia Tar is your
                          Julia
                          > Toth?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Toth is one of the most common of Hungarian family names.
                          Nevertheless, I
                          > have not been able to find immigration records for your Julia,
                          Esther, or
                          > Helen Toth from Halabor. If you have located them, where have you
                          found them
                          > (dates, ship names, spelling of names)?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The only Karoly Erdelyi I could find in the immigration records that
                          > corresponds to your data immigrated on February 2, 1906, to
                          Redington PA.
                          > His last residence was Adorjanhaza, which is in Veszprem county.
                          Veszprem is
                          > a considerable distance from Bereg. However, it is still possible,
                          since he
                          > could have moved from his place of birth.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
                          September 17,
                          > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > People did move around, sometimes more than we tend to give them
                          credit for.
                          > While there are families who have lived in the same village for many
                          > generations, even hundreds of years, other family names may pop up
                          suddenly
                          > in a village, and just as suddenly, disappear. Perhaps these
                          families tended
                          > to be more restless, or adventuresome, or desperate, than others,
                          willing to
                          > strike out for better conditions elsewhere. It might not be
                          surprising to
                          > find such families represented in greater numbers among the
                          immigrants.
                          > Therefore, one cannot be certain that an immigrant's last residence
                          was also
                          > his place of birth.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > As for Erdelyi meaning "from Erdely," I did not mean to suggest
                          that you
                          > could ever find the family's roots in Transylvania. As Bill pointed
                          out,
                          > people began taking family names around the 16th century. Most
                          commonly the
                          > names derived from a physical or personality attribute (e.g., Kis,
                          meaning
                          > little), an occupation (e.g., Kovacs, meaning blacksmith), or a
                          place where
                          > they came from (e.g., Budai, meaning from Buda). The purpose, of
                          course, was
                          > to distinguish them in some way from the many others with the same
                          given
                          > name. It is certainly conceivable that Karoly's ancient ancestors
                          were "from
                          > Erdely." But this serves only to be an interesting piece of
                          information, not
                          > anything that would be useful genealogically.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Janet
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Bill Tarkulich
                          Sue, I would offer that Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades and genealogy dates !!!! What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                            Sue,
                            I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
                            and genealogy dates" !!!!

                            What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
                            reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
                            There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
                            grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
                            Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.

                            Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
                            unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
                            important.

                            It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
                            Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families with
                            the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
                            that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with the
                            same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important clue.

                            I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
                            evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
                            smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a trail.

                            Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.

                            Bill

                            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
                            September 17,
                            > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
                            >
                            >
                          • Sue
                            Hi Bill, My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album. Sue Don t be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns. Ancestor Hunters
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                              Hi Bill,
                              My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album.
                              Sue
                              Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                              Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/


                              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                              <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Sue,
                              > I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
                              > and genealogy dates" !!!!
                              >
                              > What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
                              > reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
                              > There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
                              > grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
                              > Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.
                              >
                              > Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
                              > unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
                              > important.
                              >
                              > It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
                              > Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families
                              with
                              > the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
                              > that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with
                              the
                              > same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important
                              clue.
                              >
                              > I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
                              > evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
                              > smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a
                              trail.
                              >
                              > Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.
                              >
                              > Bill
                              >
                              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
                              > September 17,
                              > > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Bill Tarkulich
                              Hi, I found them - can you please get us bigger images; they are too small to read. Danger! Danger! Danger! Treat all typewritten documents with great
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                                Hi,
                                I found them - can you please get us bigger images; they are too
                                small to read.

                                Danger! Danger! Danger! Treat all typewritten documents with great
                                suspicion. They are undoubtedly transcribed from something else.
                                What port did they depart from? Germany? Hungary/Trieste? Other?

                                Bill = Don't worry, I won't be afraid....

                                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Bill,
                                > My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album.
                                > Sue
                                > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                                > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                                > <bill.tarkulich@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Sue,
                                > > I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
                                > > and genealogy dates" !!!!
                                > >
                                > > What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
                                > > reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
                                > > There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
                                > > grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
                                > > Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.
                                > >
                                > > Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
                                > > unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
                                > > important.
                                > >
                                > > It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
                                > > Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families
                                > with
                                > > the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
                                > > that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with
                                > the
                                > > same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important
                                > clue.
                                > >
                                > > I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
                                > > evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
                                > > smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a
                                > trail.
                                > >
                                > > Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.
                                > >
                                > > Bill
                                > >
                                > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
                                > > September 17,
                                > > > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Bill Tarkulich
                                OK, I know why I m confused now. I think you may be confusing two family groups. I went to the EI site and looked at the Amalia 1907 manifest. Did you look
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                                  OK, I know why I'm confused now. I think you may be confusing two
                                  family groups.
                                  I went to the EI site and looked at the Amalia 1907 manifest. Did you
                                  look at the whole page? There are both TOTH and TAR all from HALABOR
                                  on the same manifest. They are several lines apart, but the same
                                  page. Hmmmm. I smell a rat. Whenever I find a manifest of interest,
                                  I quickly scan the entire manifest for other clues such as people from
                                  the same village or same surname, just broken apart. The
                                  transcription process to create the database is sadly lacking, and
                                  introduced many errors in it. I recommend your next step is to quicly
                                  review every manifest page.

                                  My GM's cousins had their records transposed - they were right next to
                                  each other, one was married, the other not.

                                  I have a feeling some confusion occurred at manifest creation time.
                                  I would also give you some tips on searching for variants in EIDB:
                                  http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/EIDB_Errors.htm

                                  I will leave the next steps to you.


                                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Bill,
                                  > My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album.
                                  > Sue
                                  > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                                  > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                                  > <bill.tarkulich@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Sue,
                                  > > I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
                                  > > and genealogy dates" !!!!
                                  > >
                                  > > What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
                                  > > reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
                                  > > There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
                                  > > grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
                                  > > Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.
                                  > >
                                  > > Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
                                  > > unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
                                  > > important.
                                  > >
                                  > > It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
                                  > > Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families
                                  > with
                                  > > the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
                                  > > that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with
                                  > the
                                  > > same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important
                                  > clue.
                                  > >
                                  > > I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
                                  > > evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
                                  > > smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a
                                  > trail.
                                  > >
                                  > > Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.
                                  > >
                                  > > Bill
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
                                  > > September 17,
                                  > > > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Bill Tarkulich
                                  All these TARs are from Halabor, different years: All these TOTH are from Halabor, different years. Residence Age Born* Arrived Passenger Record Tar, Amalia
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
                                    All these TARs are from Halabor, different years:
                                    All these TOTH are from Halabor, different years.

                                    Residence Age Born* Arrived Passenger
                                    Record
                                    Tar, Amalia Halabor 18 1889 1907
                                    Tar, Paula Halabor, Hungary 3 1907 1910
                                    Tar, Roza Halabor, Hungary 30 1880 1910
                                    Tar, Zsigmond Halabor 28 1878 1906
                                    Toth, Ilonka Halabor, Cz. Slov. 17 1904 1921
                                    Toth, Josef Halabor 38 1865 1903
                                    Toth, Jozsef Halabor 43 1864 1907
                                    Toth, Jozsef Halabor, Hungary 48 1865 1913
                                    Toth, Samuel Halabor, Hungary 49 1863 1912
                                    Toth, Schmul Halabor 45 1862 1907


                                    And I haven't even tried name variations/misspellings yet!





                                    --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                                    <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > OK, I know why I'm confused now. I think you may be confusing two
                                    > family groups.
                                    > I went to the EI site and looked at the Amalia 1907 manifest. Did you
                                    > look at the whole page? There are both TOTH and TAR all from HALABOR
                                    > on the same manifest. They are several lines apart, but the same
                                    > page. Hmmmm. I smell a rat. Whenever I find a manifest of interest,
                                    > I quickly scan the entire manifest for other clues such as people from
                                    > the same village or same surname, just broken apart. The
                                    > transcription process to create the database is sadly lacking, and
                                    > introduced many errors in it. I recommend your next step is to quicly
                                    > review every manifest page.
                                    >
                                    > My GM's cousins had their records transposed - they were right next to
                                    > each other, one was married, the other not.
                                    >
                                    > I have a feeling some confusion occurred at manifest creation time.
                                    > I would also give you some tips on searching for variants in EIDB:
                                    > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/EIDB_Errors.htm
                                    >
                                    > I will leave the next steps to you.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <sueseyes@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Bill,
                                    > > My scans are in the Photo Section under Erdelyi Album.
                                    > > Sue
                                    > > Don't be afraid, cemetery ghosts are only genealogists with lanterns.
                                    > > Ancestor Hunters Genealogy Group
                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancestorhunters/
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Tarkulich"
                                    > > <bill.tarkulich@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Sue,
                                    > > > I would offer that "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades
                                    > > > and genealogy dates" !!!!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > What I mean, it that getting within a couple years of a birth is a
                                    > > > reason to count IN a records, not to count it OUT.
                                    > > > There are five different, ostensibly credible documents for my
                                    > > > grandfather, all which list his birth date/year/month differently.
                                    > > > Nobody has ever been able to corroborate his birthdate.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Fact is that in many villages in this regions, the birthdate was
                                    > > > unimportant. It was the person's saint's name day that was very
                                    > > > important.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It would be also useful research to look for both surnames in the
                                    > > > Ellis records. See if you can find other individuals or families
                                    > > with
                                    > > > the same surname who came from that village. Absence of others from
                                    > > > that village doesn't mean anything, but if you do find others with
                                    > > the
                                    > > > same name, traveling on different dates, that would be an important
                                    > > clue.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I hope you get the idea. There are sometimes reasons to discount
                                    > > > evidence, and sometimes reasons to include evidence. It isn't the
                                    > > > smoking gun, but it does give you reason to continue to pursue a
                                    > > trail.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Lastly, where are the scans you uploaded? I'm a little lost.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Bill
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > By the way, according to his WWI registration, he was born on
                                    > > > September 17,
                                    > > > > 1888, in Badalo. You stated his date of birth as August 15, 1887.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Adrienne Sowards
                                    I ve been watching the Erdelyi posts with interest. I have ancestors by the name of Cverdel/Czverdely/Sverdel (and variations thereof) from Bardejov, Slovakia.
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 17, 2008
                                      I've been watching the Erdelyi posts with interest.

                                      I have ancestors by the name of Cverdel/Czverdely/Sverdel (and variations thereof) from Bardejov, Slovakia. What are the chances that Cverdel is related to the name Erdelyi, or "from Transylvania?"

                                      I know one Cverdel relative moved to Budapest (circa 1900) and changed his last name to a variation of Erdelyi. Unfortunately I have to go find the documentation on that - I don't have it with me right now!

                                      But I would love to know where Cverdel/Sverdel comes from. It's very unusual. So far I've found just one family still going by the name Cverdely!

                                      Thanks,
                                      Adrienne









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                                    • Adrienne Sowards
                                      Still wondering about the Erdelyi/Czverdely connection. This document (http://www.nhmus.hu/~pappmin/tmh7_390-420_adattar5.pdf) contains a photo of a distant
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 18, 2008
                                        Still wondering about the Erdelyi/Czverdely connection.

                                        This document (http://www.nhmus.hu/~pappmin/tmh7_390-420_adattar5.pdf) contains a photo of a distant cousin of mine who changed his name from Czverdely to Erdelyi when he moved from Slovakia to Hungary.

                                        I'm wondering if he chose the last name "Erdelyi" just because he thought it was a good name, or if it has a connection with Czverdely.







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                                      • william gura
                                        anyone have any good information about tours in slovakia??? i want to take the back roads and visit the small villages and try to find old family ties in the
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 18, 2008
                                          anyone have any good information about tours in slovakia??? i want to take the back roads and visit the small villages and try to find old family ties in the spis region... in the villages of either vlachy or the magura range area//// thanks



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Margo Smith
                                          Contact Helene Cincebeaux at helenezx@aol.com william gura wrote: anyone have any good information about tours in slovakia??? i want
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 20, 2008
                                            Contact Helene Cincebeaux at helenezx@...

                                            william gura <wgura@...> wrote: anyone have any good information about tours in slovakia??? i want to take the back roads and visit the small villages and try to find old family ties in the spis region... in the villages of either vlachy or the magura range area//// thanks


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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