Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: David (the name): odd question

Expand Messages
  • J Michutka
    ... Someone like Vladimir B can better answer this question, as he has done research in any number of villages; but my sense is that no, it s not used that
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 6 9:15 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      On Apr 6, 2008, at 10:26 AM, MA Bensh wrote:

      > Is it possible that "illegitimate" is used when the parents are not
      > both of the same religion?

      Someone like Vladimir B can better answer this question, as he has
      done research in any number of villages; but my sense is that no,
      it's not used that way, and certainly not in the village I'm
      researching. For one thing, there's only one church in the village
      (same for a couple of the neighboring villages), so as far as I can
      tell the population is 99.9% Roman Catholic and a handful of Jewish
      families. Very occasionally I have come across a marriage between a
      Catholic and a non-Catholic; once I found a baptismal record where
      the mother's maiden name was one of the Jewish family names in the
      area, that was surprising. Also, illegitimate child can become
      legitimate if the parents later marry; a note is added to the
      baptismal record (which would have originally noted that child being
      baptized as illegitimate). I assume that these later-legitimated
      children would *not* be labeled illegitimate in their own marriage
      record, but I'd have to double-check a couple instances in my files
      to be sure. And of course, my caveat is that this is what I have
      found in the few villages I myself have searched; I hesitate to
      generalize beyond my own findings, but offer my observations as a
      springboard for others' own musings and research.

      Julie Michutka
      jmm@...
    • nhasior@aol.com
      Eugene, You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long before
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 6 12:18 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Eugene,
        You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
        grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long before I
        became old enough to know them. It is a great loss historically and genealogy
        has given me insight into myself and my parents and our collective past. It
        is sharing this with other folks who share this passion that makes it so
        wonderful.
        Noreen



        **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
        (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • gklodzen@aol.com
        In a message dated 4/6/2008 3:18:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nhasior@a ol.com writes: You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 7 5:47 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 4/6/2008 3:18:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nhasior@a
          ol.com writes:

          You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
          grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long
          before I
          became old enough to know them. It is a great loss historically and
          genealogy
          has given me insight into myself and my parents and our collective past. It
          is sharing this with other folks who share this passion that makes it so
          wonderful.
          Noreen



          It is the same situation with me, Noreen, and I agree with you completely.
          I've learned more of my grandparents through research (starting with Bill
          Tarkulich's excellent website) and groups like this in the last four years
          then in all past years combined.

          Eugene Klodzen



          **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
          (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Margo Smith
          Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about this village? Does it
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 11 11:07 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about this village? Does it specialize in anything particular which would attract young men who were illegitimate?

            I have studied in some detail 95 families from the Turiec Valley from "the beginning of time" (i.e., the beginning of the extant records) to 1900. The given names come from a small pool. 84% of the males are named Jan, Juraj, Andrej or Matej (none illegitimate). The others are Jozef, Mikulas, Michal, Tomas, Pavol and Peter. 89% of the females are named Anna, Maria/Marina, Katarina or Zuzana (none illegitimate). The other females were named Dorota, Barbora, Rosalia, Zofie, and Johanna. By far the most popular names were Jan and Anna. Almost all of these people were serfs (1 family of lower gentry and 1 of freed men). I noticed that the nobility were named from a much larger pool of given names. 20th century names are also from a larger pool.

            I wonder if naming patterns vary by region, or by religion. The definitely vary by time period: Dorota and Barbora are older names.

            Margo

            J Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
            I spent a little time playing with the names in my marriage database;
            so far it only covers 1869-1899, 942 marriages. I found 8 instances
            of a groom named David, and to my surprise, all 8 were illegitimate.
            I then checked the first names of all grooms noted as illegitimate
            (57 names), and they're all over the place, common names like
            Josephus and less common ones like Thobias, but it does feel like
            there's a higher incidence of less-common names than in the
            population of legitimately-born grooms in this village. For example,
            Fabianus appeared 4 times, 3 of which were illegitimate; Marcus 3
            times, all illegitimate.

            I also checked brides' names (brides labeled illegitimate; 44 total);
            again, all over the place, a few less-common ones such as Ludmilla
            and Juditha. Off-hand, I found no obvious correlations here as I did
            with David, where a particular name really seemed to signal
            illegitimacy.

            I've noticed that a number of the illegitimate grooms come from a
            particular village not too far away...not sure how much to read into
            that...

            Julie Michutka
            jmm@...

            On Apr 5, 2008, at 7:31 PM, nhasior@... wrote:

            >
            > Hi Eugene,
            > It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular
            > rules. We
            > had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was
            > first girl
            > was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
            > My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if
            > that
            > helps.
            > Noreen




            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • J Michutka
            ... Yes: pretty girls ;) I can only guess; and I can t access the records of The Village of Illegitimate Young Men to get any ideas from there, because it is
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 11 4:55 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              On Apr 11, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Margo Smith wrote:

              > Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from
              > a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about
              > this village? Does it specialize in anything particular which
              > would attract young men who were illegitimate?

              Yes: pretty girls ;)

              I can only guess; and I can't access the records of The Village of
              Illegitimate Young Men to get any ideas from there, because it is
              across the border in Moravia, and therefore not (yet) microfilmed.
              My guess is that some of the IYM had to look outside their own
              village, and my ancestral village was the next village east; so the
              serious answer to your question is probably "proximity". And perhaps
              the IYM of my ancestral village went to that village to the west to
              look for *their* brides....but w/o being able to look at those
              records, I don't know! One can imagine an exchange between the two
              villages of the socially disenfranchised....heavens, who knows. It
              would be so interesting to be able to compare the two villages'
              records, and try to tease out the relationship between the populations.

              As for names....I've also noticed that the popular names shift a bit,
              but who knows what piece of paper I wrote those notes on. I wish I
              had time to skim the village baptismal records, and see if the David
              pattern is consistent through the entire register (roughly 1800-1910).

              Julie Michutka
              jmm@...
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.