Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [S-R] David (the name): odd question

Expand Messages
  • gklodzen@aol.com
    Noreen, Paul and Julie, Thanks so much for your comments. In my family research if the custom of naming the first son after the father had been followed,
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
      Noreen, Paul and Julie,

      Thanks so much for your comments. In my family research if the custom of
      naming the first son after the father had been followed, first son would have
      been named Joseph, but that was not what was found. First daughter (second
      child) was indeed Mary, though she was recorded as "Illegitimate", as was third
      child, a son. As all of this occurred over one hundred twenty-eight years ago
      who to say why? I could speculate, sure, but I would certainly never presume
      to judge my ancestors. After all, without them I would not be sitting here
      typing this email. Life is good, and a wonderful gift!

      Best regards,
      Eugene


      In a message dated 4/5/2008 7:31:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      nhasior@... writes:

      Hi Eugene,
      It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We
      had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was first girl
      was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
      My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if that
      helps.
      Noreen







      **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
      (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • MA Bensh
      Is it possible that illegitimate is used when the parents are not both of the same religion? gklodzen@aol.com wrote: Noreen, Paul and Julie, Thanks so much
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
        Is it possible that "illegitimate" is used when the parents are not both of the same religion?

        gklodzen@... wrote:
        Noreen, Paul and Julie,

        Thanks so much for your comments. In my family research if the custom of
        naming the first son after the father had been followed, first son would have
        been named Joseph, but that was not what was found. First daughter (second
        child) was indeed Mary, though she was recorded as "Illegitimate", as was third
        child, a son. As all of this occurred over one hundred twenty-eight years ago
        who to say why? I could speculate, sure, but I would certainly never presume
        to judge my ancestors. After all, without them I would not be sitting here
        typing this email. Life is good, and a wonderful gift!

        Best regards,
        Eugene


        In a message dated 4/5/2008 7:31:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        nhasior@... writes:

        Hi Eugene,
        It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We
        had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was first girl
        was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
        My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if that
        helps.
        Noreen

        **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
        (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








        ---------------------------------
        You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • J Michutka
        ... Someone like Vladimir B can better answer this question, as he has done research in any number of villages; but my sense is that no, it s not used that
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
          On Apr 6, 2008, at 10:26 AM, MA Bensh wrote:

          > Is it possible that "illegitimate" is used when the parents are not
          > both of the same religion?

          Someone like Vladimir B can better answer this question, as he has
          done research in any number of villages; but my sense is that no,
          it's not used that way, and certainly not in the village I'm
          researching. For one thing, there's only one church in the village
          (same for a couple of the neighboring villages), so as far as I can
          tell the population is 99.9% Roman Catholic and a handful of Jewish
          families. Very occasionally I have come across a marriage between a
          Catholic and a non-Catholic; once I found a baptismal record where
          the mother's maiden name was one of the Jewish family names in the
          area, that was surprising. Also, illegitimate child can become
          legitimate if the parents later marry; a note is added to the
          baptismal record (which would have originally noted that child being
          baptized as illegitimate). I assume that these later-legitimated
          children would *not* be labeled illegitimate in their own marriage
          record, but I'd have to double-check a couple instances in my files
          to be sure. And of course, my caveat is that this is what I have
          found in the few villages I myself have searched; I hesitate to
          generalize beyond my own findings, but offer my observations as a
          springboard for others' own musings and research.

          Julie Michutka
          jmm@...
        • nhasior@aol.com
          Eugene, You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long before
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
            Eugene,
            You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
            grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long before I
            became old enough to know them. It is a great loss historically and genealogy
            has given me insight into myself and my parents and our collective past. It
            is sharing this with other folks who share this passion that makes it so
            wonderful.
            Noreen



            **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
            (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • gklodzen@aol.com
            In a message dated 4/6/2008 3:18:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nhasior@a ol.com writes: You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 7, 2008
              In a message dated 4/6/2008 3:18:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nhasior@a
              ol.com writes:

              You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
              grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long
              before I
              became old enough to know them. It is a great loss historically and
              genealogy
              has given me insight into myself and my parents and our collective past. It
              is sharing this with other folks who share this passion that makes it so
              wonderful.
              Noreen



              It is the same situation with me, Noreen, and I agree with you completely.
              I've learned more of my grandparents through research (starting with Bill
              Tarkulich's excellent website) and groups like this in the last four years
              then in all past years combined.

              Eugene Klodzen



              **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
              (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Margo Smith
              Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about this village? Does it
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 11, 2008
                Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about this village? Does it specialize in anything particular which would attract young men who were illegitimate?

                I have studied in some detail 95 families from the Turiec Valley from "the beginning of time" (i.e., the beginning of the extant records) to 1900. The given names come from a small pool. 84% of the males are named Jan, Juraj, Andrej or Matej (none illegitimate). The others are Jozef, Mikulas, Michal, Tomas, Pavol and Peter. 89% of the females are named Anna, Maria/Marina, Katarina or Zuzana (none illegitimate). The other females were named Dorota, Barbora, Rosalia, Zofie, and Johanna. By far the most popular names were Jan and Anna. Almost all of these people were serfs (1 family of lower gentry and 1 of freed men). I noticed that the nobility were named from a much larger pool of given names. 20th century names are also from a larger pool.

                I wonder if naming patterns vary by region, or by religion. The definitely vary by time period: Dorota and Barbora are older names.

                Margo

                J Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                I spent a little time playing with the names in my marriage database;
                so far it only covers 1869-1899, 942 marriages. I found 8 instances
                of a groom named David, and to my surprise, all 8 were illegitimate.
                I then checked the first names of all grooms noted as illegitimate
                (57 names), and they're all over the place, common names like
                Josephus and less common ones like Thobias, but it does feel like
                there's a higher incidence of less-common names than in the
                population of legitimately-born grooms in this village. For example,
                Fabianus appeared 4 times, 3 of which were illegitimate; Marcus 3
                times, all illegitimate.

                I also checked brides' names (brides labeled illegitimate; 44 total);
                again, all over the place, a few less-common ones such as Ludmilla
                and Juditha. Off-hand, I found no obvious correlations here as I did
                with David, where a particular name really seemed to signal
                illegitimacy.

                I've noticed that a number of the illegitimate grooms come from a
                particular village not too far away...not sure how much to read into
                that...

                Julie Michutka
                jmm@...

                On Apr 5, 2008, at 7:31 PM, nhasior@... wrote:

                >
                > Hi Eugene,
                > It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular
                > rules. We
                > had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was
                > first girl
                > was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
                > My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if
                > that
                > helps.
                > Noreen




                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • J Michutka
                ... Yes: pretty girls ;) I can only guess; and I can t access the records of The Village of Illegitimate Young Men to get any ideas from there, because it is
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 11, 2008
                  On Apr 11, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Margo Smith wrote:

                  > Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from
                  > a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about
                  > this village? Does it specialize in anything particular which
                  > would attract young men who were illegitimate?

                  Yes: pretty girls ;)

                  I can only guess; and I can't access the records of The Village of
                  Illegitimate Young Men to get any ideas from there, because it is
                  across the border in Moravia, and therefore not (yet) microfilmed.
                  My guess is that some of the IYM had to look outside their own
                  village, and my ancestral village was the next village east; so the
                  serious answer to your question is probably "proximity". And perhaps
                  the IYM of my ancestral village went to that village to the west to
                  look for *their* brides....but w/o being able to look at those
                  records, I don't know! One can imagine an exchange between the two
                  villages of the socially disenfranchised....heavens, who knows. It
                  would be so interesting to be able to compare the two villages'
                  records, and try to tease out the relationship between the populations.

                  As for names....I've also noticed that the popular names shift a bit,
                  but who knows what piece of paper I wrote those notes on. I wish I
                  had time to skim the village baptismal records, and see if the David
                  pattern is consistent through the entire register (roughly 1800-1910).

                  Julie Michutka
                  jmm@...
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.