Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [S-R] David (the name): odd question

Expand Messages
  • nhasior@aol.com
    Hi Eugene, It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 5, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Eugene,
      It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We
      had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was first girl
      was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
      My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if that
      helps.
      Noreen




      gklodzen@... writes:

      Weird question of the day: has anyone else who has worked their way
      through Slovak village records noticed that the name "David" is
      usually a male who was born illegitimate? I know Vladimir B. has
      mentioned in the past that illegitimate children were often given
      unusual names, but David doesn't strike me as unusual...think King
      David in the Bible... Maybe it's this particular village's favorite
      name for illegitimate boys?? (I do see other odd names for these
      boys, but David pops up over and over.)

      Julie, I've noticed that Stephen (Istvan in the Hungarian) is another
      relatively uncommon given name. Probably coincidence, but in my own research
      the
      Stephen in question was also listed as "Illegitimate"Stephen in question was
      also li
      in similar circumstances, for whatever reason (I make no moral judgements)
      were not married at the time of these births, in the eyes of the Roman
      Catholic Church their children were considered "Illegitimate"Catholic Church
      th
      wedlock". That's somewhat different today for sure, and a lot less
      condemning
      then in our ancestors time.

      Eugene Klodzen








      **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
      (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • J Michutka
      I spent a little time playing with the names in my marriage database; so far it only covers 1869-1899, 942 marriages. I found 8 instances of a groom named
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 5, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        I spent a little time playing with the names in my marriage database;
        so far it only covers 1869-1899, 942 marriages. I found 8 instances
        of a groom named David, and to my surprise, all 8 were illegitimate.
        I then checked the first names of all grooms noted as illegitimate
        (57 names), and they're all over the place, common names like
        Josephus and less common ones like Thobias, but it does feel like
        there's a higher incidence of less-common names than in the
        population of legitimately-born grooms in this village. For example,
        Fabianus appeared 4 times, 3 of which were illegitimate; Marcus 3
        times, all illegitimate.

        I also checked brides' names (brides labeled illegitimate; 44 total);
        again, all over the place, a few less-common ones such as Ludmilla
        and Juditha. Off-hand, I found no obvious correlations here as I did
        with David, where a particular name really seemed to signal
        illegitimacy.

        I've noticed that a number of the illegitimate grooms come from a
        particular village not too far away...not sure how much to read into
        that...

        Julie Michutka
        jmm@...




        On Apr 5, 2008, at 7:31 PM, nhasior@... wrote:

        >
        > Hi Eugene,
        > It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular
        > rules. We
        > had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was
        > first girl
        > was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
        > My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if
        > that
        > helps.
        > Noreen
      • gklodzen@aol.com
        Noreen, Paul and Julie, Thanks so much for your comments. In my family research if the custom of naming the first son after the father had been followed,
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Noreen, Paul and Julie,

          Thanks so much for your comments. In my family research if the custom of
          naming the first son after the father had been followed, first son would have
          been named Joseph, but that was not what was found. First daughter (second
          child) was indeed Mary, though she was recorded as "Illegitimate", as was third
          child, a son. As all of this occurred over one hundred twenty-eight years ago
          who to say why? I could speculate, sure, but I would certainly never presume
          to judge my ancestors. After all, without them I would not be sitting here
          typing this email. Life is good, and a wonderful gift!

          Best regards,
          Eugene


          In a message dated 4/5/2008 7:31:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          nhasior@... writes:

          Hi Eugene,
          It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We
          had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was first girl
          was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
          My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if that
          helps.
          Noreen







          **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
          (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • MA Bensh
          Is it possible that illegitimate is used when the parents are not both of the same religion? gklodzen@aol.com wrote: Noreen, Paul and Julie, Thanks so much
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Is it possible that "illegitimate" is used when the parents are not both of the same religion?

            gklodzen@... wrote:
            Noreen, Paul and Julie,

            Thanks so much for your comments. In my family research if the custom of
            naming the first son after the father had been followed, first son would have
            been named Joseph, but that was not what was found. First daughter (second
            child) was indeed Mary, though she was recorded as "Illegitimate", as was third
            child, a son. As all of this occurred over one hundred twenty-eight years ago
            who to say why? I could speculate, sure, but I would certainly never presume
            to judge my ancestors. After all, without them I would not be sitting here
            typing this email. Life is good, and a wonderful gift!

            Best regards,
            Eugene


            In a message dated 4/5/2008 7:31:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            nhasior@... writes:

            Hi Eugene,
            It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We
            had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was first girl
            was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
            My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if that
            helps.
            Noreen

            **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
            (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








            ---------------------------------
            You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • J Michutka
            ... Someone like Vladimir B can better answer this question, as he has done research in any number of villages; but my sense is that no, it s not used that
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              On Apr 6, 2008, at 10:26 AM, MA Bensh wrote:

              > Is it possible that "illegitimate" is used when the parents are not
              > both of the same religion?

              Someone like Vladimir B can better answer this question, as he has
              done research in any number of villages; but my sense is that no,
              it's not used that way, and certainly not in the village I'm
              researching. For one thing, there's only one church in the village
              (same for a couple of the neighboring villages), so as far as I can
              tell the population is 99.9% Roman Catholic and a handful of Jewish
              families. Very occasionally I have come across a marriage between a
              Catholic and a non-Catholic; once I found a baptismal record where
              the mother's maiden name was one of the Jewish family names in the
              area, that was surprising. Also, illegitimate child can become
              legitimate if the parents later marry; a note is added to the
              baptismal record (which would have originally noted that child being
              baptized as illegitimate). I assume that these later-legitimated
              children would *not* be labeled illegitimate in their own marriage
              record, but I'd have to double-check a couple instances in my files
              to be sure. And of course, my caveat is that this is what I have
              found in the few villages I myself have searched; I hesitate to
              generalize beyond my own findings, but offer my observations as a
              springboard for others' own musings and research.

              Julie Michutka
              jmm@...
            • nhasior@aol.com
              Eugene, You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long before
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 6, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Eugene,
                You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
                grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long before I
                became old enough to know them. It is a great loss historically and genealogy
                has given me insight into myself and my parents and our collective past. It
                is sharing this with other folks who share this passion that makes it so
                wonderful.
                Noreen



                **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
                (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • gklodzen@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/6/2008 3:18:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nhasior@a ol.com writes: You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 7, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a message dated 4/6/2008 3:18:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nhasior@a
                  ol.com writes:

                  You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
                  grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long
                  before I
                  became old enough to know them. It is a great loss historically and
                  genealogy
                  has given me insight into myself and my parents and our collective past. It
                  is sharing this with other folks who share this passion that makes it so
                  wonderful.
                  Noreen



                  It is the same situation with me, Noreen, and I agree with you completely.
                  I've learned more of my grandparents through research (starting with Bill
                  Tarkulich's excellent website) and groups like this in the last four years
                  then in all past years combined.

                  Eugene Klodzen



                  **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
                  (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Margo Smith
                  Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about this village? Does it
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 11, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about this village? Does it specialize in anything particular which would attract young men who were illegitimate?

                    I have studied in some detail 95 families from the Turiec Valley from "the beginning of time" (i.e., the beginning of the extant records) to 1900. The given names come from a small pool. 84% of the males are named Jan, Juraj, Andrej or Matej (none illegitimate). The others are Jozef, Mikulas, Michal, Tomas, Pavol and Peter. 89% of the females are named Anna, Maria/Marina, Katarina or Zuzana (none illegitimate). The other females were named Dorota, Barbora, Rosalia, Zofie, and Johanna. By far the most popular names were Jan and Anna. Almost all of these people were serfs (1 family of lower gentry and 1 of freed men). I noticed that the nobility were named from a much larger pool of given names. 20th century names are also from a larger pool.

                    I wonder if naming patterns vary by region, or by religion. The definitely vary by time period: Dorota and Barbora are older names.

                    Margo

                    J Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                    I spent a little time playing with the names in my marriage database;
                    so far it only covers 1869-1899, 942 marriages. I found 8 instances
                    of a groom named David, and to my surprise, all 8 were illegitimate.
                    I then checked the first names of all grooms noted as illegitimate
                    (57 names), and they're all over the place, common names like
                    Josephus and less common ones like Thobias, but it does feel like
                    there's a higher incidence of less-common names than in the
                    population of legitimately-born grooms in this village. For example,
                    Fabianus appeared 4 times, 3 of which were illegitimate; Marcus 3
                    times, all illegitimate.

                    I also checked brides' names (brides labeled illegitimate; 44 total);
                    again, all over the place, a few less-common ones such as Ludmilla
                    and Juditha. Off-hand, I found no obvious correlations here as I did
                    with David, where a particular name really seemed to signal
                    illegitimacy.

                    I've noticed that a number of the illegitimate grooms come from a
                    particular village not too far away...not sure how much to read into
                    that...

                    Julie Michutka
                    jmm@...

                    On Apr 5, 2008, at 7:31 PM, nhasior@... wrote:

                    >
                    > Hi Eugene,
                    > It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular
                    > rules. We
                    > had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was
                    > first girl
                    > was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
                    > My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if
                    > that
                    > helps.
                    > Noreen




                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • J Michutka
                    ... Yes: pretty girls ;) I can only guess; and I can t access the records of The Village of Illegitimate Young Men to get any ideas from there, because it is
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 11, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Apr 11, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Margo Smith wrote:

                      > Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from
                      > a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about
                      > this village? Does it specialize in anything particular which
                      > would attract young men who were illegitimate?

                      Yes: pretty girls ;)

                      I can only guess; and I can't access the records of The Village of
                      Illegitimate Young Men to get any ideas from there, because it is
                      across the border in Moravia, and therefore not (yet) microfilmed.
                      My guess is that some of the IYM had to look outside their own
                      village, and my ancestral village was the next village east; so the
                      serious answer to your question is probably "proximity". And perhaps
                      the IYM of my ancestral village went to that village to the west to
                      look for *their* brides....but w/o being able to look at those
                      records, I don't know! One can imagine an exchange between the two
                      villages of the socially disenfranchised....heavens, who knows. It
                      would be so interesting to be able to compare the two villages'
                      records, and try to tease out the relationship between the populations.

                      As for names....I've also noticed that the popular names shift a bit,
                      but who knows what piece of paper I wrote those notes on. I wish I
                      had time to skim the village baptismal records, and see if the David
                      pattern is consistent through the entire register (roughly 1800-1910).

                      Julie Michutka
                      jmm@...
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.