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Re: [S-R] David (the name): odd question

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  • gklodzen@aol.com
    In a message dated 4/3/2008 8:35:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jmm@pathbridge.net writes: Weird question of the day: has anyone else who has worked their way
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 4 5:57 AM
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      In a message dated 4/3/2008 8:35:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      jmm@... writes:

      Weird question of the day: has anyone else who has worked their way
      through Slovak village records noticed that the name "David" is
      usually a male who was born illegitimate? I know Vladimir B. has
      mentioned in the past that illegitimate children were often given
      unusual names, but David doesn't strike me as unusual...think King
      David in the Bible... Maybe it's this particular village's favorite
      name for illegitimate boys?? (I do see other odd names for these
      boys, but David pops up over and over.)



      Julie, I've noticed that Stephen (Istvan in the Hungarian) is another
      relatively uncommon given name. Probably coincidence, but in my own research the
      Stephen in question was also listed as "Illegitimate". If his and other parents
      in similar circumstances, for whatever reason (I make no moral judgements)
      were not married at the time of these births, in the eyes of the Roman
      Catholic Church their children were considered "Illegitimate", or "born out of
      wedlock". That's somewhat different today for sure, and a lot less condemning
      then in our ancestors time.

      Eugene Klodzen



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    • Paul Paulochik
      Now that is definitely a case where it depends on WHERE you are looking. I know what records you are talking about, Eugene (the ones around Vinne), and now
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 4 8:50 AM
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        Now that is definitely a case where it depends on WHERE you are looking.
        I know what records you are talking about, Eugene (the ones around
        Vinne), and now that you mention it, I don't remember very many Istvans
        either. But when I started on my mother's family in Liptovska Teplicka,
        there were Istvans all over the place.

        With very little proof, I'd say it's a result of naming conventions -
        the old habit of naming firstborn son after the father, second after
        paternal grandfather, third after maternal grandfather, then paternal
        brothers and maternal brothers (for girls it would be mothers,
        grandmothers, sisters). I've also heard where they are named after the
        godparents. Wouldn't take too many generations of this before you see an
        entire village of nothing but Jans, Michels, marias, and Annas



        -----Original Message-----
        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of gklodzen@...
        Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 6:57 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] David (the name): odd question




        In a message dated 4/3/2008 8:35:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        jmm@pathbridge. <mailto:jmm%40pathbridge.net> net writes:

        >>><<<

        Julie, I've noticed that Stephen (Istvan in the Hungarian) is another
        relatively uncommon given name. Probably coincidence, but in my own
        research the
        Stephen in question was also listed as "Illegitimate". If his and other
        parents
        in similar circumstances, for whatever reason (I make no moral
        judgements)
        were not married at the time of these births, in the eyes of the Roman
        Catholic Church their children were considered "Illegitimate", or "born
        out of
        wedlock". That's somewhat different today for sure, and a lot less
        condemning
        then in our ancestors time.

        Eugene Klodzen

        .

        <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=206571/grpspId=1705040837/ms
        gId=19790/stime=1207313884/nc1=4990222/nc2=5170417/nc3=5286667>




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • nhasior@aol.com
        Hi Eugene, It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 5 4:31 PM
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          Hi Eugene,
          It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We
          had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was first girl
          was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
          My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if that
          helps.
          Noreen




          gklodzen@... writes:

          Weird question of the day: has anyone else who has worked their way
          through Slovak village records noticed that the name "David" is
          usually a male who was born illegitimate? I know Vladimir B. has
          mentioned in the past that illegitimate children were often given
          unusual names, but David doesn't strike me as unusual...think King
          David in the Bible... Maybe it's this particular village's favorite
          name for illegitimate boys?? (I do see other odd names for these
          boys, but David pops up over and over.)

          Julie, I've noticed that Stephen (Istvan in the Hungarian) is another
          relatively uncommon given name. Probably coincidence, but in my own research
          the
          Stephen in question was also listed as "Illegitimate"Stephen in question was
          also li
          in similar circumstances, for whatever reason (I make no moral judgements)
          were not married at the time of these births, in the eyes of the Roman
          Catholic Church their children were considered "Illegitimate"Catholic Church
          th
          wedlock". That's somewhat different today for sure, and a lot less
          condemning
          then in our ancestors time.

          Eugene Klodzen








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        • J Michutka
          I spent a little time playing with the names in my marriage database; so far it only covers 1869-1899, 942 marriages. I found 8 instances of a groom named
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 5 7:51 PM
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            I spent a little time playing with the names in my marriage database;
            so far it only covers 1869-1899, 942 marriages. I found 8 instances
            of a groom named David, and to my surprise, all 8 were illegitimate.
            I then checked the first names of all grooms noted as illegitimate
            (57 names), and they're all over the place, common names like
            Josephus and less common ones like Thobias, but it does feel like
            there's a higher incidence of less-common names than in the
            population of legitimately-born grooms in this village. For example,
            Fabianus appeared 4 times, 3 of which were illegitimate; Marcus 3
            times, all illegitimate.

            I also checked brides' names (brides labeled illegitimate; 44 total);
            again, all over the place, a few less-common ones such as Ludmilla
            and Juditha. Off-hand, I found no obvious correlations here as I did
            with David, where a particular name really seemed to signal
            illegitimacy.

            I've noticed that a number of the illegitimate grooms come from a
            particular village not too far away...not sure how much to read into
            that...

            Julie Michutka
            jmm@...




            On Apr 5, 2008, at 7:31 PM, nhasior@... wrote:

            >
            > Hi Eugene,
            > It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular
            > rules. We
            > had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was
            > first girl
            > was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
            > My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if
            > that
            > helps.
            > Noreen
          • gklodzen@aol.com
            Noreen, Paul and Julie, Thanks so much for your comments. In my family research if the custom of naming the first son after the father had been followed,
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 6 6:20 AM
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              Noreen, Paul and Julie,

              Thanks so much for your comments. In my family research if the custom of
              naming the first son after the father had been followed, first son would have
              been named Joseph, but that was not what was found. First daughter (second
              child) was indeed Mary, though she was recorded as "Illegitimate", as was third
              child, a son. As all of this occurred over one hundred twenty-eight years ago
              who to say why? I could speculate, sure, but I would certainly never presume
              to judge my ancestors. After all, without them I would not be sitting here
              typing this email. Life is good, and a wonderful gift!

              Best regards,
              Eugene


              In a message dated 4/5/2008 7:31:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              nhasior@... writes:

              Hi Eugene,
              It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We
              had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was first girl
              was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
              My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if that
              helps.
              Noreen







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            • MA Bensh
              Is it possible that illegitimate is used when the parents are not both of the same religion? gklodzen@aol.com wrote: Noreen, Paul and Julie, Thanks so much
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 6 7:26 AM
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                Is it possible that "illegitimate" is used when the parents are not both of the same religion?

                gklodzen@... wrote:
                Noreen, Paul and Julie,

                Thanks so much for your comments. In my family research if the custom of
                naming the first son after the father had been followed, first son would have
                been named Joseph, but that was not what was found. First daughter (second
                child) was indeed Mary, though she was recorded as "Illegitimate", as was third
                child, a son. As all of this occurred over one hundred twenty-eight years ago
                who to say why? I could speculate, sure, but I would certainly never presume
                to judge my ancestors. After all, without them I would not be sitting here
                typing this email. Life is good, and a wonderful gift!

                Best regards,
                Eugene


                In a message dated 4/5/2008 7:31:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                nhasior@... writes:

                Hi Eugene,
                It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular rules. We
                had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was first girl
                was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
                My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if that
                helps.
                Noreen

                **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
                (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

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              • J Michutka
                ... Someone like Vladimir B can better answer this question, as he has done research in any number of villages; but my sense is that no, it s not used that
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 6 9:15 AM
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                  On Apr 6, 2008, at 10:26 AM, MA Bensh wrote:

                  > Is it possible that "illegitimate" is used when the parents are not
                  > both of the same religion?

                  Someone like Vladimir B can better answer this question, as he has
                  done research in any number of villages; but my sense is that no,
                  it's not used that way, and certainly not in the village I'm
                  researching. For one thing, there's only one church in the village
                  (same for a couple of the neighboring villages), so as far as I can
                  tell the population is 99.9% Roman Catholic and a handful of Jewish
                  families. Very occasionally I have come across a marriage between a
                  Catholic and a non-Catholic; once I found a baptismal record where
                  the mother's maiden name was one of the Jewish family names in the
                  area, that was surprising. Also, illegitimate child can become
                  legitimate if the parents later marry; a note is added to the
                  baptismal record (which would have originally noted that child being
                  baptized as illegitimate). I assume that these later-legitimated
                  children would *not* be labeled illegitimate in their own marriage
                  record, but I'd have to double-check a couple instances in my files
                  to be sure. And of course, my caveat is that this is what I have
                  found in the few villages I myself have searched; I hesitate to
                  generalize beyond my own findings, but offer my observations as a
                  springboard for others' own musings and research.

                  Julie Michutka
                  jmm@...
                • nhasior@aol.com
                  Eugene, You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long before
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 6 12:18 PM
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                    Eugene,
                    You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
                    grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long before I
                    became old enough to know them. It is a great loss historically and genealogy
                    has given me insight into myself and my parents and our collective past. It
                    is sharing this with other folks who share this passion that makes it so
                    wonderful.
                    Noreen



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                  • gklodzen@aol.com
                    In a message dated 4/6/2008 3:18:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nhasior@a ol.com writes: You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 7 5:47 AM
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                      In a message dated 4/6/2008 3:18:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nhasior@a
                      ol.com writes:

                      You are most welcome and it is interesting to see customs of our
                      grandparents and great grandparents. I lost all four of my grandparents long
                      before I
                      became old enough to know them. It is a great loss historically and
                      genealogy
                      has given me insight into myself and my parents and our collective past. It
                      is sharing this with other folks who share this passion that makes it so
                      wonderful.
                      Noreen



                      It is the same situation with me, Noreen, and I agree with you completely.
                      I've learned more of my grandparents through research (starting with Bill
                      Tarkulich's excellent website) and groups like this in the last four years
                      then in all past years combined.

                      Eugene Klodzen



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                    • Margo Smith
                      Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about this village? Does it
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 11 11:07 AM
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                        Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about this village? Does it specialize in anything particular which would attract young men who were illegitimate?

                        I have studied in some detail 95 families from the Turiec Valley from "the beginning of time" (i.e., the beginning of the extant records) to 1900. The given names come from a small pool. 84% of the males are named Jan, Juraj, Andrej or Matej (none illegitimate). The others are Jozef, Mikulas, Michal, Tomas, Pavol and Peter. 89% of the females are named Anna, Maria/Marina, Katarina or Zuzana (none illegitimate). The other females were named Dorota, Barbora, Rosalia, Zofie, and Johanna. By far the most popular names were Jan and Anna. Almost all of these people were serfs (1 family of lower gentry and 1 of freed men). I noticed that the nobility were named from a much larger pool of given names. 20th century names are also from a larger pool.

                        I wonder if naming patterns vary by region, or by religion. The definitely vary by time period: Dorota and Barbora are older names.

                        Margo

                        J Michutka <jmm@...> wrote:
                        I spent a little time playing with the names in my marriage database;
                        so far it only covers 1869-1899, 942 marriages. I found 8 instances
                        of a groom named David, and to my surprise, all 8 were illegitimate.
                        I then checked the first names of all grooms noted as illegitimate
                        (57 names), and they're all over the place, common names like
                        Josephus and less common ones like Thobias, but it does feel like
                        there's a higher incidence of less-common names than in the
                        population of legitimately-born grooms in this village. For example,
                        Fabianus appeared 4 times, 3 of which were illegitimate; Marcus 3
                        times, all illegitimate.

                        I also checked brides' names (brides labeled illegitimate; 44 total);
                        again, all over the place, a few less-common ones such as Ludmilla
                        and Juditha. Off-hand, I found no obvious correlations here as I did
                        with David, where a particular name really seemed to signal
                        illegitimacy.

                        I've noticed that a number of the illegitimate grooms come from a
                        particular village not too far away...not sure how much to read into
                        that...

                        Julie Michutka
                        jmm@...

                        On Apr 5, 2008, at 7:31 PM, nhasior@... wrote:

                        >
                        > Hi Eugene,
                        > It is interesting to wonder if given names follow any particular
                        > rules. We
                        > had the thread that discussed the naming of girls. I think it was
                        > first girl
                        > was Mary, second one was Anna, third was Sophie, next was Helen etc.
                        > My grandfather was Istvan. He was legitimate, so I do not know if
                        > that
                        > helps.
                        > Noreen




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                      • J Michutka
                        ... Yes: pretty girls ;) I can only guess; and I can t access the records of The Village of Illegitimate Young Men to get any ideas from there, because it is
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 11 4:55 PM
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                          On Apr 11, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Margo Smith wrote:

                          > Julie, your comment that the illegitimate grooms tend to come from
                          > a particular village is very intriguing. What do you know about
                          > this village? Does it specialize in anything particular which
                          > would attract young men who were illegitimate?

                          Yes: pretty girls ;)

                          I can only guess; and I can't access the records of The Village of
                          Illegitimate Young Men to get any ideas from there, because it is
                          across the border in Moravia, and therefore not (yet) microfilmed.
                          My guess is that some of the IYM had to look outside their own
                          village, and my ancestral village was the next village east; so the
                          serious answer to your question is probably "proximity". And perhaps
                          the IYM of my ancestral village went to that village to the west to
                          look for *their* brides....but w/o being able to look at those
                          records, I don't know! One can imagine an exchange between the two
                          villages of the socially disenfranchised....heavens, who knows. It
                          would be so interesting to be able to compare the two villages'
                          records, and try to tease out the relationship between the populations.

                          As for names....I've also noticed that the popular names shift a bit,
                          but who knows what piece of paper I wrote those notes on. I wish I
                          had time to skim the village baptismal records, and see if the David
                          pattern is consistent through the entire register (roughly 1800-1910).

                          Julie Michutka
                          jmm@...
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