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Re: [S-R] Klacsano - Old Maps

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  • Ron Matviyak
    ... bit to the right, half way down the map. A word of caution with the old maps from Austria-Hungary. The latitude shown on the old maps is Ferro, not
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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      > On the left side> > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little
      bit to the right, half> > way down the map.

      A word of caution with the old maps from Austria-Hungary. The
      latitude shown on the old maps is Ferro, not Greenwich. Thus the
      numbers are about 17° 40' So if you have some need for the modern
      longitude, subtract 17° 40' from what the map says and you will be
      very close to the modern Greenwich value.

      Here is a bit of edited history taken from Wikipedia:

      FERRO, Canary Islands, was known in Europe as the prime meridian in
      common use outside of the future British Empire. In the 2nd century
      A.D., Ptolemy considered a zero meridian based on the western-most
      position of the known world, giving maps with only positive (eastern)
      longitudes.

      In 1634 France decided that Ferro's meridian should be used as the
      reference on maps, since this island is the most western position of
      the Old World and also thought to be exactly 20 degrees west of the
      Paris meridian…

      Old maps (outside of Anglo-America) often have a common grid with
      Paris degrees at the top and Ferro degrees offset by 20 at the bottom.
      Theodor Albrecht (ca. 1890) calculated the Ferro meridian as 17° 39'
      46.02" west of the Greenwich meridian. The geodetic systems of
      Hungary and Yugoslavia, used this value prior to the switch to the
      Greenwich prime meridian.
      But for the geodetic networks of Austria, Germany and Czechoslovakia,
      the value 17° 40' 00" was adopted in the 1920s,
    • June McKee
      Eugene, just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in the Ukraine? June ... From: gklodzen@aol.com To:
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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        Eugene,

        just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in the Ukraine?

        June
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: gklodzen@...
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano



        An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
        correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
        grandfather's village, thus the question), including Klacsano, has become
        part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
        that I did.

        Many thanks for your time,
        Eugene Klodzen


        In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:25:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        rmom@... writes:

        The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

        _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazhttp://la_
        (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg)

        Sorry!

        --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
        , "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
        >
        > Eugene:
        >
        > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
        > Austria-Hungary" Austria-Hungary"<WBR>. They are dated in the lower
        > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
        >
        > _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazarus.htt_
        (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm)
        >
        > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
        > in researching.
        >
        > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
        >
        > _http://www.talmamedhttp://www.http://wwhttp://www.talmhttp://www_
        (http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif)
        >
        > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
        > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
        > way down the map.
        >
        > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
        >
        > Good researching!
        >
        > Bob S.
        >
        >
        > --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
        , gklodzen@ wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
        is in
        > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
        > Ung county or
        > > of another region?
        > >
        > > Many thanks,
        > > Eugene Klodzen

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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      • gklodzen@aol.com
        Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by LDS
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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          Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in
          Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by
          LDS volunteers in the 1990s and available now to researchers from the Family
          History Library.

          On the other hand, the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
          I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
          Ukraine. I was able to piece a part of my 19th century family's history together
          from those church documents, but because of the missing 1869 Census not all of
          it.

          I gather that Klacsano is in that part of Ung county that was absorbed into
          Ukraine.

          Good luck with your research,
          Eugene





          In a message dated 12/3/2007 1:16:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          junemckee@... writes:

          Eugene,

          just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in
          the Ukraine?

          June
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: _gklodzen@..._ (mailto:gklodzen@...)
          To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
          Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano

          An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
          correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne
          (my
          grandfather'grandfather'<WBR>s village, thus the question), including Klac
          part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
          that I did.

          Many thanks for your time,
          Eugene Klodzen








          **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
          products.
          (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • June McKee
          Thanks Eugene I think I am going to need all of the luck I can get with being in the Ukraine. Maybe someday that area will be able to be filmed or possibly I
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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            Thanks Eugene I think I am going to need all of the luck I can get with being in the Ukraine. Maybe someday that area will be able to be filmed or possibly I will be able to find someone that can do a search in there.

            Good luck to you aswell,
            June
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: gklodzen@...
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:45 PM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano



            Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in
            Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by
            LDS volunteers in the 1990s and available now to researchers from the Family
            History Library.

            On the other hand, the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
            I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
            Ukraine. I was able to piece a part of my 19th century family's history together
            from those church documents, but because of the missing 1869 Census not all of
            it.

            I gather that Klacsano is in that part of Ung county that was absorbed into
            Ukraine.

            Good luck with your research,
            Eugene





            In a message dated 12/3/2007 1:16:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            junemckee@... writes:

            Eugene,

            just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in
            the Ukraine?

            June
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: _gklodzen@..._ (mailto:gklodzen@...)
            To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
            Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano

            An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
            correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne
            (my
            grandfather'grandfather'<WBR>s village, thus the question), including Klac
            part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
            that I did.

            Many thanks for your time,
            Eugene Klodzen

            **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
            products.
            (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • johnqadam
            ... I m not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with Ukraine.
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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              >>> the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
              I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
              Ukraine. <<<

              BINGO!!!!

              The 1869 Ung Megye Hungarian Census is believed to be in Uzhorod
              Archive, so far lost to genealogy research. However, there is always
              hope!
            • Janet Kozlay
              For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir s information looks very significant. The old ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now Klace
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 5, 2008
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                For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir's information looks very significant. The old
                ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now
                Klace SK. Old Hungarian spellings also include Kleczen and Kalacsany. Roman
                Catholic church records for Klacsan are with Rajec, which go back all the
                way to 1674.



                Despite the similarity in names, there would appear to be no relation
                between the village of Klacsano near Munkacs and Klacsan in Trencsen.



                Janet





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              • gklodzen@aol.com
                Janet, Margo, Vladimir, John and All, Many thanks for this recent information which may open yet another door into the family past, and which I would likely
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 6, 2008
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                  Janet, Margo, Vladimir, John and All,

                  Many thanks for this recent information which may open yet another door into
                  the family past, and which I would likely never have known had I not been a
                  member of this group of "generous with their knowledge" family history
                  researchers like yourselves. You can be sure that I will be ordering the relevant
                  microfilm from the Family History Center.

                  As someone said, 'Genealogy becomes rather addictive. No sooner do you find
                  one ancestor but you start looking for another even further back in time.' So
                  true. But even better then finding just that ancestor is the historical
                  perspective that unfolds during the search, the added knowledge of the time and
                  place in which the ancestor lived, thus some of which he or she may have
                  personally experienced. As one who never knew his grandparents, this research
                  odyssey has taught me much about them, ...and myself.

                  Many thanks for your help along the way,
                  Eugene Klodzen





                  In a message dated 2/5/2008 10:04:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  kozlay@... writes:

                  For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir's information looks very significant. The old
                  ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now
                  Klace SK. Old Hungarian spellings also include Kleczen and Kalacsany. Roman
                  Catholic church records for Klacsan are with Rajec, which go back all the
                  way to 1674.

                  Despite the similarity in names, there would appear to be no relation
                  between the village of Klacsano near Munkacs and Klacsan in Trencsen.

                  Janet



                  <<Eugene, Vladimir will probably expand on this reply because he is the
                  expert. In the meantime, the Urbars are the old feudal tax records which list the
                  serf taxpayers. The records from 1770ish are available on microfilm from the
                  Family History Centers. In the list of microfilms, they are Urberi tabellak
                  1767-1773. The documents are in archaic Slovak and Latin.

                  Also, Richard Marsina and Michal Kusik wrote Urbare feudalnych pastiev na
                  Slovensku (1959). Vol. 1 deals with the 16th century and Vol. 2 with the 17th
                  century. I ordered this on interlibrary loan at my local public library. The
                  information presented varies from year to year.

                  Rajec near Zilina has a nice little restaurant. But it is also very near
                  Rajec Teplice, my favorite spa in all Slovakia. The old building is very ornate.
                  There is live music and dancing on summer evenings. And a small bar next to
                  the pool serves slivovce.>>

                  Margo




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                • gklodzen@aol.com
                  Janet, Vladimir and All, To add a little more information with regard to our recent discussion of villages Rajecz, Klacsan and Kladzan: In searching through
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 7, 2008
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                    Janet, Vladimir and All,

                    To add a little more information with regard to our recent discussion of
                    villages Rajecz, Klacsan and Kladzan:

                    In searching through the old Hungarian map, circa 1910:

                    _http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg_
                    (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg)

                    I've found the old village of Kladzan to be in Zemplin County at these
                    coordinates:

                    21 degrees, 45 minutes, & 48 degrees, 45 minutes (hope that's the right
                    terminology)

                    As village Kladzan was considerably closer to present day Vinne then was
                    village Klaczan (located in Trencen County) I'm speculating now that perhaps my
                    KLADZAN ancestors found in Vinne may have had their origins in village
                    Kladzan rather then the more distant village Klacsan. And, as the spelling of
                    both the ancestral surname and the village are identical, it seems a likely
                    possibility.

                    So, next up will be a search of records (church and others) covering years
                    prior to 1812, the year of the earliest KLADZAN found in Vinne. Any thoughts
                    or suggestions would, as always, be much appreciated.

                    Many thanks,
                    Eugene Klodzen (researching KLADZAN, PIKULA, HLADKY, LABADA)





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