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Re: [S-R] Klacsano

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  • June McKee
    thank you for the map. I can diffently see Klacsano there. Being this villiage is so close to Munkacs that is probably why my grandmother always refered to
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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      thank you for the map. I can diffently see Klacsano there. Being this villiage is so close to Munkacs that is probably why my grandmother always refered to Munkacs.

      thanks
      June
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: fernbrough
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:28 AM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano


      June:

      In the upper right hand corner of this map is Munkacs.

      http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-48.jpg

      You can see the town of Klacsano just NW of Munkacs.

      Thanks!





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • fernbrough
      Eugene: This map is part of the 3rd Military Mapping Survey for Austria-Hungary . They are dated in the lower right corner; the one for Munkacs was dated
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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        Eugene:

        This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
        Austria-Hungary". They are dated in the lower right corner; the one
        for Munkacs was dated 1889.

        http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

        It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
        in researching.

        Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.

        http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif

        Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
        margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
        way down the map.

        All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.

        Good researching!

        Bob S.


        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, gklodzen@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka is in
        > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
        Ung county or
        > of another region?
        >
        > Many thanks,
        > Eugene Klodzen
        >
        > I
      • fernbrough
        The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg Sorry! ... is in
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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          The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

          http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg

          Sorry!


          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
          >
          > Eugene:
          >
          > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
          > Austria-Hungary". They are dated in the lower right corner; the one
          > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
          >
          > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm
          >
          > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
          > in researching.
          >
          > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
          >
          > http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif
          >
          > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
          > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
          > way down the map.
          >
          > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
          >
          > Good researching!
          >
          > Bob S.
          >
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, gklodzen@ wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
          is in
          > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
          > Ung county or
          > > of another region?
          > >
          > > Many thanks,
          > > Eugene Klodzen
          > >
          > > I
          >
        • gklodzen@aol.com
          An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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            An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
            correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
            grandfather's village, thus the question), including Klacsano, has become
            part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
            that I did.

            Many thanks for your time,
            Eugene Klodzen


            In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:25:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            rmom@... writes:

            The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

            _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazhttp://la_
            (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg)

            Sorry!

            --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
            , "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
            >
            > Eugene:
            >
            > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
            > Austria-Hungary" Austria-Hungary"<WBR>. They are dated in the lower
            > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
            >
            > _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazarus.htt_
            (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm)
            >
            > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
            > in researching.
            >
            > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
            >
            > _http://www.talmamedhttp://www.http://wwhttp://www.talmhttp://www_
            (http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif)
            >
            > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
            > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
            > way down the map.
            >
            > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
            >
            > Good researching!
            >
            > Bob S.
            >
            >
            > --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
            , gklodzen@ wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
            is in
            > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
            > Ung county or
            > > of another region?
            > >
            > > Many thanks,
            > > Eugene Klodzen







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          • Ron Matviyak
            ... bit to the right, half way down the map. A word of caution with the old maps from Austria-Hungary. The latitude shown on the old maps is Ferro, not
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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              > On the left side> > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little
              bit to the right, half> > way down the map.

              A word of caution with the old maps from Austria-Hungary. The
              latitude shown on the old maps is Ferro, not Greenwich. Thus the
              numbers are about 17° 40' So if you have some need for the modern
              longitude, subtract 17° 40' from what the map says and you will be
              very close to the modern Greenwich value.

              Here is a bit of edited history taken from Wikipedia:

              FERRO, Canary Islands, was known in Europe as the prime meridian in
              common use outside of the future British Empire. In the 2nd century
              A.D., Ptolemy considered a zero meridian based on the western-most
              position of the known world, giving maps with only positive (eastern)
              longitudes.

              In 1634 France decided that Ferro's meridian should be used as the
              reference on maps, since this island is the most western position of
              the Old World and also thought to be exactly 20 degrees west of the
              Paris meridian…

              Old maps (outside of Anglo-America) often have a common grid with
              Paris degrees at the top and Ferro degrees offset by 20 at the bottom.
              Theodor Albrecht (ca. 1890) calculated the Ferro meridian as 17° 39'
              46.02" west of the Greenwich meridian. The geodetic systems of
              Hungary and Yugoslavia, used this value prior to the switch to the
              Greenwich prime meridian.
              But for the geodetic networks of Austria, Germany and Czechoslovakia,
              the value 17° 40' 00" was adopted in the 1920s,
            • June McKee
              Eugene, just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in the Ukraine? June ... From: gklodzen@aol.com To:
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                Eugene,

                just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in the Ukraine?

                June
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: gklodzen@...
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano



                An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
                grandfather's village, thus the question), including Klacsano, has become
                part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                that I did.

                Many thanks for your time,
                Eugene Klodzen


                In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:25:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                rmom@... writes:

                The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

                _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazhttp://la_
                (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg)

                Sorry!

                --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                , "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
                >
                > Eugene:
                >
                > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
                > Austria-Hungary" Austria-Hungary"<WBR>. They are dated in the lower
                > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
                >
                > _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazarus.htt_
                (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm)
                >
                > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
                > in researching.
                >
                > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
                >
                > _http://www.talmamedhttp://www.http://wwhttp://www.talmhttp://www_
                (http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif)
                >
                > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
                > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
                > way down the map.
                >
                > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
                >
                > Good researching!
                >
                > Bob S.
                >
                >
                > --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                , gklodzen@ wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
                is in
                > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
                > Ung county or
                > > of another region?
                > >
                > > Many thanks,
                > > Eugene Klodzen

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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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              • gklodzen@aol.com
                Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by LDS
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                  Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in
                  Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by
                  LDS volunteers in the 1990s and available now to researchers from the Family
                  History Library.

                  On the other hand, the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
                  I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
                  Ukraine. I was able to piece a part of my 19th century family's history together
                  from those church documents, but because of the missing 1869 Census not all of
                  it.

                  I gather that Klacsano is in that part of Ung county that was absorbed into
                  Ukraine.

                  Good luck with your research,
                  Eugene





                  In a message dated 12/3/2007 1:16:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  junemckee@... writes:

                  Eugene,

                  just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in
                  the Ukraine?

                  June
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: _gklodzen@..._ (mailto:gklodzen@...)
                  To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano

                  An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                  correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne
                  (my
                  grandfather'grandfather'<WBR>s village, thus the question), including Klac
                  part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                  that I did.

                  Many thanks for your time,
                  Eugene Klodzen








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                  products.
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • June McKee
                  Thanks Eugene I think I am going to need all of the luck I can get with being in the Ukraine. Maybe someday that area will be able to be filmed or possibly I
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                    Thanks Eugene I think I am going to need all of the luck I can get with being in the Ukraine. Maybe someday that area will be able to be filmed or possibly I will be able to find someone that can do a search in there.

                    Good luck to you aswell,
                    June
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: gklodzen@...
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:45 PM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano



                    Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in
                    Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by
                    LDS volunteers in the 1990s and available now to researchers from the Family
                    History Library.

                    On the other hand, the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
                    I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
                    Ukraine. I was able to piece a part of my 19th century family's history together
                    from those church documents, but because of the missing 1869 Census not all of
                    it.

                    I gather that Klacsano is in that part of Ung county that was absorbed into
                    Ukraine.

                    Good luck with your research,
                    Eugene





                    In a message dated 12/3/2007 1:16:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    junemckee@... writes:

                    Eugene,

                    just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in
                    the Ukraine?

                    June
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: _gklodzen@..._ (mailto:gklodzen@...)
                    To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                    Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano

                    An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                    correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne
                    (my
                    grandfather'grandfather'<WBR>s village, thus the question), including Klac
                    part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                    that I did.

                    Many thanks for your time,
                    Eugene Klodzen

                    **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
                    products.
                    (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • johnqadam
                    ... I m not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with Ukraine.
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                      >>> the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
                      I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
                      Ukraine. <<<

                      BINGO!!!!

                      The 1869 Ung Megye Hungarian Census is believed to be in Uzhorod
                      Archive, so far lost to genealogy research. However, there is always
                      hope!
                    • Janet Kozlay
                      For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir s information looks very significant. The old ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now Klace
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 5, 2008
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                        For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir's information looks very significant. The old
                        ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now
                        Klace SK. Old Hungarian spellings also include Kleczen and Kalacsany. Roman
                        Catholic church records for Klacsan are with Rajec, which go back all the
                        way to 1674.



                        Despite the similarity in names, there would appear to be no relation
                        between the village of Klacsano near Munkacs and Klacsan in Trencsen.



                        Janet





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • gklodzen@aol.com
                        Janet, Margo, Vladimir, John and All, Many thanks for this recent information which may open yet another door into the family past, and which I would likely
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 6, 2008
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                          Janet, Margo, Vladimir, John and All,

                          Many thanks for this recent information which may open yet another door into
                          the family past, and which I would likely never have known had I not been a
                          member of this group of "generous with their knowledge" family history
                          researchers like yourselves. You can be sure that I will be ordering the relevant
                          microfilm from the Family History Center.

                          As someone said, 'Genealogy becomes rather addictive. No sooner do you find
                          one ancestor but you start looking for another even further back in time.' So
                          true. But even better then finding just that ancestor is the historical
                          perspective that unfolds during the search, the added knowledge of the time and
                          place in which the ancestor lived, thus some of which he or she may have
                          personally experienced. As one who never knew his grandparents, this research
                          odyssey has taught me much about them, ...and myself.

                          Many thanks for your help along the way,
                          Eugene Klodzen





                          In a message dated 2/5/2008 10:04:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          kozlay@... writes:

                          For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir's information looks very significant. The old
                          ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now
                          Klace SK. Old Hungarian spellings also include Kleczen and Kalacsany. Roman
                          Catholic church records for Klacsan are with Rajec, which go back all the
                          way to 1674.

                          Despite the similarity in names, there would appear to be no relation
                          between the village of Klacsano near Munkacs and Klacsan in Trencsen.

                          Janet



                          <<Eugene, Vladimir will probably expand on this reply because he is the
                          expert. In the meantime, the Urbars are the old feudal tax records which list the
                          serf taxpayers. The records from 1770ish are available on microfilm from the
                          Family History Centers. In the list of microfilms, they are Urberi tabellak
                          1767-1773. The documents are in archaic Slovak and Latin.

                          Also, Richard Marsina and Michal Kusik wrote Urbare feudalnych pastiev na
                          Slovensku (1959). Vol. 1 deals with the 16th century and Vol. 2 with the 17th
                          century. I ordered this on interlibrary loan at my local public library. The
                          information presented varies from year to year.

                          Rajec near Zilina has a nice little restaurant. But it is also very near
                          Rajec Teplice, my favorite spa in all Slovakia. The old building is very ornate.
                          There is live music and dancing on summer evenings. And a small bar next to
                          the pool serves slivovce.>>

                          Margo




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                        • gklodzen@aol.com
                          Janet, Vladimir and All, To add a little more information with regard to our recent discussion of villages Rajecz, Klacsan and Kladzan: In searching through
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 7, 2008
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                            Janet, Vladimir and All,

                            To add a little more information with regard to our recent discussion of
                            villages Rajecz, Klacsan and Kladzan:

                            In searching through the old Hungarian map, circa 1910:

                            _http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg_
                            (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg)

                            I've found the old village of Kladzan to be in Zemplin County at these
                            coordinates:

                            21 degrees, 45 minutes, & 48 degrees, 45 minutes (hope that's the right
                            terminology)

                            As village Kladzan was considerably closer to present day Vinne then was
                            village Klaczan (located in Trencen County) I'm speculating now that perhaps my
                            KLADZAN ancestors found in Vinne may have had their origins in village
                            Kladzan rather then the more distant village Klacsan. And, as the spelling of
                            both the ancestral surname and the village are identical, it seems a likely
                            possibility.

                            So, next up will be a search of records (church and others) covering years
                            prior to 1812, the year of the earliest KLADZAN found in Vinne. Any thoughts
                            or suggestions would, as always, be much appreciated.

                            Many thanks,
                            Eugene Klodzen (researching KLADZAN, PIKULA, HLADKY, LABADA)





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