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Re: [S-R] Klacsano

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  • gklodzen@aol.com
    Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka is in relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old Ung county or of
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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      Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka is in
      relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old Ung county or
      of another region?

      Many thanks,
      Eugene Klodzen

      In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:29:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      rmom@... writes:

      June:

      In the upper right hand corner of this map is Munkacs.

      _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazhttp://la_
      (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-48.jpg)

      You can see the town of Klacsano just NW of Munkacs.

      Thanks!







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    • johnqadam
      ... Vinné, Slovakia, formerly Vinna-Banka, Ung, Hungary, is located east of Michalovce on the north side of Zemplinska Sirava. Not near Munkacs on any map.
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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        >>> does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka is <<<

        Vinné, Slovakia, formerly Vinna-Banka, Ung, Hungary, is located east of
        Michalovce on the north side of Zemplinska Sirava. Not near Munkacs on
        any map.
      • June McKee
        thank you for the map. I can diffently see Klacsano there. Being this villiage is so close to Munkacs that is probably why my grandmother always refered to
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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          thank you for the map. I can diffently see Klacsano there. Being this villiage is so close to Munkacs that is probably why my grandmother always refered to Munkacs.

          thanks
          June
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: fernbrough
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:28 AM
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano


          June:

          In the upper right hand corner of this map is Munkacs.

          http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-48.jpg

          You can see the town of Klacsano just NW of Munkacs.

          Thanks!





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • fernbrough
          Eugene: This map is part of the 3rd Military Mapping Survey for Austria-Hungary . They are dated in the lower right corner; the one for Munkacs was dated
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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            Eugene:

            This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
            Austria-Hungary". They are dated in the lower right corner; the one
            for Munkacs was dated 1889.

            http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

            It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
            in researching.

            Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.

            http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif

            Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
            margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
            way down the map.

            All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.

            Good researching!

            Bob S.


            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, gklodzen@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka is in
            > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
            Ung county or
            > of another region?
            >
            > Many thanks,
            > Eugene Klodzen
            >
            > I
          • fernbrough
            The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg Sorry! ... is in
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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              The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

              http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg

              Sorry!


              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
              >
              > Eugene:
              >
              > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
              > Austria-Hungary". They are dated in the lower right corner; the one
              > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
              >
              > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm
              >
              > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
              > in researching.
              >
              > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
              >
              > http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif
              >
              > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
              > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
              > way down the map.
              >
              > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
              >
              > Good researching!
              >
              > Bob S.
              >
              >
              > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, gklodzen@ wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
              is in
              > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
              > Ung county or
              > > of another region?
              > >
              > > Many thanks,
              > > Eugene Klodzen
              > >
              > > I
              >
            • gklodzen@aol.com
              An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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                An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
                grandfather's village, thus the question), including Klacsano, has become
                part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                that I did.

                Many thanks for your time,
                Eugene Klodzen


                In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:25:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                rmom@... writes:

                The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

                _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazhttp://la_
                (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg)

                Sorry!

                --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                , "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
                >
                > Eugene:
                >
                > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
                > Austria-Hungary" Austria-Hungary"<WBR>. They are dated in the lower
                > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
                >
                > _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazarus.htt_
                (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm)
                >
                > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
                > in researching.
                >
                > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
                >
                > _http://www.talmamedhttp://www.http://wwhttp://www.talmhttp://www_
                (http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif)
                >
                > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
                > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
                > way down the map.
                >
                > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
                >
                > Good researching!
                >
                > Bob S.
                >
                >
                > --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                , gklodzen@ wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
                is in
                > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
                > Ung county or
                > > of another region?
                > >
                > > Many thanks,
                > > Eugene Klodzen







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              • Ron Matviyak
                ... bit to the right, half way down the map. A word of caution with the old maps from Austria-Hungary. The latitude shown on the old maps is Ferro, not
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                  > On the left side> > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little
                  bit to the right, half> > way down the map.

                  A word of caution with the old maps from Austria-Hungary. The
                  latitude shown on the old maps is Ferro, not Greenwich. Thus the
                  numbers are about 17° 40' So if you have some need for the modern
                  longitude, subtract 17° 40' from what the map says and you will be
                  very close to the modern Greenwich value.

                  Here is a bit of edited history taken from Wikipedia:

                  FERRO, Canary Islands, was known in Europe as the prime meridian in
                  common use outside of the future British Empire. In the 2nd century
                  A.D., Ptolemy considered a zero meridian based on the western-most
                  position of the known world, giving maps with only positive (eastern)
                  longitudes.

                  In 1634 France decided that Ferro's meridian should be used as the
                  reference on maps, since this island is the most western position of
                  the Old World and also thought to be exactly 20 degrees west of the
                  Paris meridian…

                  Old maps (outside of Anglo-America) often have a common grid with
                  Paris degrees at the top and Ferro degrees offset by 20 at the bottom.
                  Theodor Albrecht (ca. 1890) calculated the Ferro meridian as 17° 39'
                  46.02" west of the Greenwich meridian. The geodetic systems of
                  Hungary and Yugoslavia, used this value prior to the switch to the
                  Greenwich prime meridian.
                  But for the geodetic networks of Austria, Germany and Czechoslovakia,
                  the value 17° 40' 00" was adopted in the 1920s,
                • June McKee
                  Eugene, just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in the Ukraine? June ... From: gklodzen@aol.com To:
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                    Eugene,

                    just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in the Ukraine?

                    June
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: gklodzen@...
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano



                    An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                    correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
                    grandfather's village, thus the question), including Klacsano, has become
                    part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                    that I did.

                    Many thanks for your time,
                    Eugene Klodzen


                    In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:25:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    rmom@... writes:

                    The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

                    _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazhttp://la_
                    (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg)

                    Sorry!

                    --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                    , "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Eugene:
                    >
                    > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
                    > Austria-Hungary" Austria-Hungary"<WBR>. They are dated in the lower
                    > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
                    >
                    > _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazarus.htt_
                    (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm)
                    >
                    > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
                    > in researching.
                    >
                    > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
                    >
                    > _http://www.talmamedhttp://www.http://wwhttp://www.talmhttp://www_
                    (http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif)
                    >
                    > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
                    > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
                    > way down the map.
                    >
                    > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
                    >
                    > Good researching!
                    >
                    > Bob S.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                    , gklodzen@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
                    is in
                    > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
                    > Ung county or
                    > > of another region?
                    > >
                    > > Many thanks,
                    > > Eugene Klodzen

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                  • gklodzen@aol.com
                    Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by LDS
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                      Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in
                      Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by
                      LDS volunteers in the 1990s and available now to researchers from the Family
                      History Library.

                      On the other hand, the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
                      I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
                      Ukraine. I was able to piece a part of my 19th century family's history together
                      from those church documents, but because of the missing 1869 Census not all of
                      it.

                      I gather that Klacsano is in that part of Ung county that was absorbed into
                      Ukraine.

                      Good luck with your research,
                      Eugene





                      In a message dated 12/3/2007 1:16:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      junemckee@... writes:

                      Eugene,

                      just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in
                      the Ukraine?

                      June
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: _gklodzen@..._ (mailto:gklodzen@...)
                      To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                      Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano

                      An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                      correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne
                      (my
                      grandfather'grandfather'<WBR>s village, thus the question), including Klac
                      part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                      that I did.

                      Many thanks for your time,
                      Eugene Klodzen








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                      products.
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                    • June McKee
                      Thanks Eugene I think I am going to need all of the luck I can get with being in the Ukraine. Maybe someday that area will be able to be filmed or possibly I
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                        Thanks Eugene I think I am going to need all of the luck I can get with being in the Ukraine. Maybe someday that area will be able to be filmed or possibly I will be able to find someone that can do a search in there.

                        Good luck to you aswell,
                        June
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: gklodzen@...
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:45 PM
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano



                        Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in
                        Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by
                        LDS volunteers in the 1990s and available now to researchers from the Family
                        History Library.

                        On the other hand, the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
                        I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
                        Ukraine. I was able to piece a part of my 19th century family's history together
                        from those church documents, but because of the missing 1869 Census not all of
                        it.

                        I gather that Klacsano is in that part of Ung county that was absorbed into
                        Ukraine.

                        Good luck with your research,
                        Eugene





                        In a message dated 12/3/2007 1:16:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        junemckee@... writes:

                        Eugene,

                        just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in
                        the Ukraine?

                        June
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: _gklodzen@..._ (mailto:gklodzen@...)
                        To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                        Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano

                        An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                        correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne
                        (my
                        grandfather'grandfather'<WBR>s village, thus the question), including Klac
                        part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                        that I did.

                        Many thanks for your time,
                        Eugene Klodzen

                        **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
                        products.
                        (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                      • johnqadam
                        ... I m not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with Ukraine.
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                          >>> the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
                          I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
                          Ukraine. <<<

                          BINGO!!!!

                          The 1869 Ung Megye Hungarian Census is believed to be in Uzhorod
                          Archive, so far lost to genealogy research. However, there is always
                          hope!
                        • Janet Kozlay
                          For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir s information looks very significant. The old ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now Klace
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 5, 2008
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                            For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir's information looks very significant. The old
                            ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now
                            Klace SK. Old Hungarian spellings also include Kleczen and Kalacsany. Roman
                            Catholic church records for Klacsan are with Rajec, which go back all the
                            way to 1674.



                            Despite the similarity in names, there would appear to be no relation
                            between the village of Klacsano near Munkacs and Klacsan in Trencsen.



                            Janet





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                          • gklodzen@aol.com
                            Janet, Margo, Vladimir, John and All, Many thanks for this recent information which may open yet another door into the family past, and which I would likely
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 6, 2008
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                              Janet, Margo, Vladimir, John and All,

                              Many thanks for this recent information which may open yet another door into
                              the family past, and which I would likely never have known had I not been a
                              member of this group of "generous with their knowledge" family history
                              researchers like yourselves. You can be sure that I will be ordering the relevant
                              microfilm from the Family History Center.

                              As someone said, 'Genealogy becomes rather addictive. No sooner do you find
                              one ancestor but you start looking for another even further back in time.' So
                              true. But even better then finding just that ancestor is the historical
                              perspective that unfolds during the search, the added knowledge of the time and
                              place in which the ancestor lived, thus some of which he or she may have
                              personally experienced. As one who never knew his grandparents, this research
                              odyssey has taught me much about them, ...and myself.

                              Many thanks for your help along the way,
                              Eugene Klodzen





                              In a message dated 2/5/2008 10:04:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              kozlay@... writes:

                              For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir's information looks very significant. The old
                              ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now
                              Klace SK. Old Hungarian spellings also include Kleczen and Kalacsany. Roman
                              Catholic church records for Klacsan are with Rajec, which go back all the
                              way to 1674.

                              Despite the similarity in names, there would appear to be no relation
                              between the village of Klacsano near Munkacs and Klacsan in Trencsen.

                              Janet



                              <<Eugene, Vladimir will probably expand on this reply because he is the
                              expert. In the meantime, the Urbars are the old feudal tax records which list the
                              serf taxpayers. The records from 1770ish are available on microfilm from the
                              Family History Centers. In the list of microfilms, they are Urberi tabellak
                              1767-1773. The documents are in archaic Slovak and Latin.

                              Also, Richard Marsina and Michal Kusik wrote Urbare feudalnych pastiev na
                              Slovensku (1959). Vol. 1 deals with the 16th century and Vol. 2 with the 17th
                              century. I ordered this on interlibrary loan at my local public library. The
                              information presented varies from year to year.

                              Rajec near Zilina has a nice little restaurant. But it is also very near
                              Rajec Teplice, my favorite spa in all Slovakia. The old building is very ornate.
                              There is live music and dancing on summer evenings. And a small bar next to
                              the pool serves slivovce.>>

                              Margo




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                            • gklodzen@aol.com
                              Janet, Vladimir and All, To add a little more information with regard to our recent discussion of villages Rajecz, Klacsan and Kladzan: In searching through
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 7, 2008
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                                Janet, Vladimir and All,

                                To add a little more information with regard to our recent discussion of
                                villages Rajecz, Klacsan and Kladzan:

                                In searching through the old Hungarian map, circa 1910:

                                _http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg_
                                (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg)

                                I've found the old village of Kladzan to be in Zemplin County at these
                                coordinates:

                                21 degrees, 45 minutes, & 48 degrees, 45 minutes (hope that's the right
                                terminology)

                                As village Kladzan was considerably closer to present day Vinne then was
                                village Klaczan (located in Trencen County) I'm speculating now that perhaps my
                                KLADZAN ancestors found in Vinne may have had their origins in village
                                Kladzan rather then the more distant village Klacsan. And, as the spelling of
                                both the ancestral surname and the village are identical, it seems a likely
                                possibility.

                                So, next up will be a search of records (church and others) covering years
                                prior to 1812, the year of the earliest KLADZAN found in Vinne. Any thoughts
                                or suggestions would, as always, be much appreciated.

                                Many thanks,
                                Eugene Klodzen (researching KLADZAN, PIKULA, HLADKY, LABADA)





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