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Re: [S-R] Klacsano

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  • fernbrough
    June: In the upper right hand corner of this map is Munkacs. http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-48.jpg You can see the town of Klacsano just NW
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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      June:

      In the upper right hand corner of this map is Munkacs.

      http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-48.jpg

      You can see the town of Klacsano just NW of Munkacs.

      Thanks!
    • gklodzen@aol.com
      Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka is in relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old Ung county or of
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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        Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka is in
        relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old Ung county or
        of another region?

        Many thanks,
        Eugene Klodzen

        In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:29:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        rmom@... writes:

        June:

        In the upper right hand corner of this map is Munkacs.

        _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazhttp://la_
        (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-48.jpg)

        You can see the town of Klacsano just NW of Munkacs.

        Thanks!







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      • johnqadam
        ... Vinné, Slovakia, formerly Vinna-Banka, Ung, Hungary, is located east of Michalovce on the north side of Zemplinska Sirava. Not near Munkacs on any map.
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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          >>> does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka is <<<

          Vinné, Slovakia, formerly Vinna-Banka, Ung, Hungary, is located east of
          Michalovce on the north side of Zemplinska Sirava. Not near Munkacs on
          any map.
        • June McKee
          thank you for the map. I can diffently see Klacsano there. Being this villiage is so close to Munkacs that is probably why my grandmother always refered to
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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            thank you for the map. I can diffently see Klacsano there. Being this villiage is so close to Munkacs that is probably why my grandmother always refered to Munkacs.

            thanks
            June
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: fernbrough
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:28 AM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano


            June:

            In the upper right hand corner of this map is Munkacs.

            http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-48.jpg

            You can see the town of Klacsano just NW of Munkacs.

            Thanks!





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • fernbrough
            Eugene: This map is part of the 3rd Military Mapping Survey for Austria-Hungary . They are dated in the lower right corner; the one for Munkacs was dated
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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              Eugene:

              This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
              Austria-Hungary". They are dated in the lower right corner; the one
              for Munkacs was dated 1889.

              http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

              It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
              in researching.

              Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.

              http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif

              Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
              margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
              way down the map.

              All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.

              Good researching!

              Bob S.


              --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, gklodzen@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka is in
              > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
              Ung county or
              > of another region?
              >
              > Many thanks,
              > Eugene Klodzen
              >
              > I
            • fernbrough
              The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg Sorry! ... is in
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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                The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

                http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg

                Sorry!


                --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
                >
                > Eugene:
                >
                > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
                > Austria-Hungary". They are dated in the lower right corner; the one
                > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
                >
                > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm
                >
                > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
                > in researching.
                >
                > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
                >
                > http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif
                >
                > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
                > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
                > way down the map.
                >
                > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
                >
                > Good researching!
                >
                > Bob S.
                >
                >
                > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, gklodzen@ wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
                is in
                > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
                > Ung county or
                > > of another region?
                > >
                > > Many thanks,
                > > Eugene Klodzen
                > >
                > > I
                >
              • gklodzen@aol.com
                An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 2, 2007
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                  An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                  correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
                  grandfather's village, thus the question), including Klacsano, has become
                  part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                  that I did.

                  Many thanks for your time,
                  Eugene Klodzen


                  In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:25:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  rmom@... writes:

                  The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

                  _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazhttp://la_
                  (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg)

                  Sorry!

                  --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                  , "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Eugene:
                  >
                  > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
                  > Austria-Hungary" Austria-Hungary"<WBR>. They are dated in the lower
                  > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
                  >
                  > _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazarus.htt_
                  (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm)
                  >
                  > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
                  > in researching.
                  >
                  > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
                  >
                  > _http://www.talmamedhttp://www.http://wwhttp://www.talmhttp://www_
                  (http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif)
                  >
                  > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
                  > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
                  > way down the map.
                  >
                  > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
                  >
                  > Good researching!
                  >
                  > Bob S.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                  , gklodzen@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
                  is in
                  > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
                  > Ung county or
                  > > of another region?
                  > >
                  > > Many thanks,
                  > > Eugene Klodzen







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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ron Matviyak
                  ... bit to the right, half way down the map. A word of caution with the old maps from Austria-Hungary. The latitude shown on the old maps is Ferro, not
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                    > On the left side> > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little
                    bit to the right, half> > way down the map.

                    A word of caution with the old maps from Austria-Hungary. The
                    latitude shown on the old maps is Ferro, not Greenwich. Thus the
                    numbers are about 17° 40' So if you have some need for the modern
                    longitude, subtract 17° 40' from what the map says and you will be
                    very close to the modern Greenwich value.

                    Here is a bit of edited history taken from Wikipedia:

                    FERRO, Canary Islands, was known in Europe as the prime meridian in
                    common use outside of the future British Empire. In the 2nd century
                    A.D., Ptolemy considered a zero meridian based on the western-most
                    position of the known world, giving maps with only positive (eastern)
                    longitudes.

                    In 1634 France decided that Ferro's meridian should be used as the
                    reference on maps, since this island is the most western position of
                    the Old World and also thought to be exactly 20 degrees west of the
                    Paris meridian…

                    Old maps (outside of Anglo-America) often have a common grid with
                    Paris degrees at the top and Ferro degrees offset by 20 at the bottom.
                    Theodor Albrecht (ca. 1890) calculated the Ferro meridian as 17° 39'
                    46.02" west of the Greenwich meridian. The geodetic systems of
                    Hungary and Yugoslavia, used this value prior to the switch to the
                    Greenwich prime meridian.
                    But for the geodetic networks of Austria, Germany and Czechoslovakia,
                    the value 17° 40' 00" was adopted in the 1920s,
                  • June McKee
                    Eugene, just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in the Ukraine? June ... From: gklodzen@aol.com To:
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                      Eugene,

                      just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in the Ukraine?

                      June
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: gklodzen@...
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano



                      An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                      correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne (my
                      grandfather's village, thus the question), including Klacsano, has become
                      part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                      that I did.

                      Many thanks for your time,
                      Eugene Klodzen


                      In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:25:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      rmom@... writes:

                      The third reference map is the following, where Vinna is shown:

                      _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazhttp://la_
                      (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-49.jpg)

                      Sorry!

                      --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                      , "fernbrough" <rmom@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Eugene:
                      >
                      > This map is part of the "3rd Military Mapping Survey for
                      > Austria-Hungary" Austria-Hungary"<WBR>. They are dated in the lower
                      > for Munkacs was dated 1889.
                      >
                      > _http://lazarus.http://lazarhttp://lahttp://lazarus.htt_
                      (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm)
                      >
                      > It's an interactive map just click on the city/area you are interested
                      > in researching.
                      >
                      > Munkacs was in Bereg County, just southeast of Ung county.
                      >
                      > _http://www.talmamedhttp://www.http://wwhttp://www.talmhttp://www_
                      (http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/beugun.gif)
                      >
                      > Your Vinna-Banka is shown as Vinna on this map. On the left side
                      > margin look for 49 degrees. Vinna is a little bit to the right, half
                      > way down the map.
                      >
                      > All of these maps are found on Bill T's web site.
                      >
                      > Good researching!
                      >
                      > Bob S.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                      , gklodzen@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Just curious, but does anyone know where the town of VinnaBanka
                      is in
                      > > relationship to Munkacs on this map? Also, is this a map of the old
                      > Ung county or
                      > > of another region?
                      > >
                      > > Many thanks,
                      > > Eugene Klodzen

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                      products.
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                    • gklodzen@aol.com
                      Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by LDS
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                        Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in
                        Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by
                        LDS volunteers in the 1990s and available now to researchers from the Family
                        History Library.

                        On the other hand, the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
                        I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
                        Ukraine. I was able to piece a part of my 19th century family's history together
                        from those church documents, but because of the missing 1869 Census not all of
                        it.

                        I gather that Klacsano is in that part of Ung county that was absorbed into
                        Ukraine.

                        Good luck with your research,
                        Eugene





                        In a message dated 12/3/2007 1:16:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        junemckee@... writes:

                        Eugene,

                        just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in
                        the Ukraine?

                        June
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: _gklodzen@..._ (mailto:gklodzen@...)
                        To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                        Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano

                        An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                        correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne
                        (my
                        grandfather'grandfather'<WBR>s village, thus the question), including Klac
                        part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                        that I did.

                        Many thanks for your time,
                        Eugene Klodzen








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                        products.
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • June McKee
                        Thanks Eugene I think I am going to need all of the luck I can get with being in the Ukraine. Maybe someday that area will be able to be filmed or possibly I
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                          Thanks Eugene I think I am going to need all of the luck I can get with being in the Ukraine. Maybe someday that area will be able to be filmed or possibly I will be able to find someone that can do a search in there.

                          Good luck to you aswell,
                          June
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: gklodzen@...
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:45 PM
                          Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano



                          Sorry, June. I did not make that very clear. Vinne is, fortunately, not in
                          Ukraine. I found my family records among those church records photographed by
                          LDS volunteers in the 1990s and available now to researchers from the Family
                          History Library.

                          On the other hand, the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
                          I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
                          Ukraine. I was able to piece a part of my 19th century family's history together
                          from those church documents, but because of the missing 1869 Census not all of
                          it.

                          I gather that Klacsano is in that part of Ung county that was absorbed into
                          Ukraine.

                          Good luck with your research,
                          Eugene





                          In a message dated 12/3/2007 1:16:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          junemckee@... writes:

                          Eugene,

                          just curious, where did you find your family records if they are indeed in
                          the Ukraine?

                          June
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: _gklodzen@..._ (mailto:gklodzen@...)
                          To: _SLOVAK-ROOTS@SLOVAK-ROOTSSLO_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
                          Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:06 PM
                          Subject: Re: [S-R] Klacsano

                          An beautiful and detailed map, Bob. Thank you very much. Do I understand
                          correctly that today much of the old Ung County to the East of village Vinne
                          (my
                          grandfather'grandfather'<WBR>s village, thus the question), including Klac
                          part of Ukraine? If so I know how fortunate I was to find the family records
                          that I did.

                          Many thanks for your time,
                          Eugene Klodzen

                          **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
                          products.
                          (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • johnqadam
                          ... I m not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with Ukraine.
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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                            >>> the 1869 Hungarian Census for Vinne is not available, and
                            I'm not certain why, but I believe it might have something to do with
                            Ukraine. <<<

                            BINGO!!!!

                            The 1869 Ung Megye Hungarian Census is believed to be in Uzhorod
                            Archive, so far lost to genealogy research. However, there is always
                            hope!
                          • Janet Kozlay
                            For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir s information looks very significant. The old ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now Klace
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 5, 2008
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                              For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir's information looks very significant. The old
                              ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now
                              Klace SK. Old Hungarian spellings also include Kleczen and Kalacsany. Roman
                              Catholic church records for Klacsan are with Rajec, which go back all the
                              way to 1674.



                              Despite the similarity in names, there would appear to be no relation
                              between the village of Klacsano near Munkacs and Klacsan in Trencsen.



                              Janet





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • gklodzen@aol.com
                              Janet, Margo, Vladimir, John and All, Many thanks for this recent information which may open yet another door into the family past, and which I would likely
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 6, 2008
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                                Janet, Margo, Vladimir, John and All,

                                Many thanks for this recent information which may open yet another door into
                                the family past, and which I would likely never have known had I not been a
                                member of this group of "generous with their knowledge" family history
                                researchers like yourselves. You can be sure that I will be ordering the relevant
                                microfilm from the Family History Center.

                                As someone said, 'Genealogy becomes rather addictive. No sooner do you find
                                one ancestor but you start looking for another even further back in time.' So
                                true. But even better then finding just that ancestor is the historical
                                perspective that unfolds during the search, the added knowledge of the time and
                                place in which the ancestor lived, thus some of which he or she may have
                                personally experienced. As one who never knew his grandparents, this research
                                odyssey has taught me much about them, ...and myself.

                                Many thanks for your help along the way,
                                Eugene Klodzen





                                In a message dated 2/5/2008 10:04:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                kozlay@... writes:

                                For Eugene Klodzen, Vladimir's information looks very significant. The old
                                ELTE map of Trencsen megye shows that Rajec(z) is right next to Klacsan, now
                                Klace SK. Old Hungarian spellings also include Kleczen and Kalacsany. Roman
                                Catholic church records for Klacsan are with Rajec, which go back all the
                                way to 1674.

                                Despite the similarity in names, there would appear to be no relation
                                between the village of Klacsano near Munkacs and Klacsan in Trencsen.

                                Janet



                                <<Eugene, Vladimir will probably expand on this reply because he is the
                                expert. In the meantime, the Urbars are the old feudal tax records which list the
                                serf taxpayers. The records from 1770ish are available on microfilm from the
                                Family History Centers. In the list of microfilms, they are Urberi tabellak
                                1767-1773. The documents are in archaic Slovak and Latin.

                                Also, Richard Marsina and Michal Kusik wrote Urbare feudalnych pastiev na
                                Slovensku (1959). Vol. 1 deals with the 16th century and Vol. 2 with the 17th
                                century. I ordered this on interlibrary loan at my local public library. The
                                information presented varies from year to year.

                                Rajec near Zilina has a nice little restaurant. But it is also very near
                                Rajec Teplice, my favorite spa in all Slovakia. The old building is very ornate.
                                There is live music and dancing on summer evenings. And a small bar next to
                                the pool serves slivovce.>>

                                Margo




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                              • gklodzen@aol.com
                                Janet, Vladimir and All, To add a little more information with regard to our recent discussion of villages Rajecz, Klacsan and Kladzan: In searching through
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 7, 2008
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                                  Janet, Vladimir and All,

                                  To add a little more information with regard to our recent discussion of
                                  villages Rajecz, Klacsan and Kladzan:

                                  In searching through the old Hungarian map, circa 1910:

                                  _http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg_
                                  (http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg)

                                  I've found the old village of Kladzan to be in Zemplin County at these
                                  coordinates:

                                  21 degrees, 45 minutes, & 48 degrees, 45 minutes (hope that's the right
                                  terminology)

                                  As village Kladzan was considerably closer to present day Vinne then was
                                  village Klaczan (located in Trencen County) I'm speculating now that perhaps my
                                  KLADZAN ancestors found in Vinne may have had their origins in village
                                  Kladzan rather then the more distant village Klacsan. And, as the spelling of
                                  both the ancestral surname and the village are identical, it seems a likely
                                  possibility.

                                  So, next up will be a search of records (church and others) covering years
                                  prior to 1812, the year of the earliest KLADZAN found in Vinne. Any thoughts
                                  or suggestions would, as always, be much appreciated.

                                  Many thanks,
                                  Eugene Klodzen (researching KLADZAN, PIKULA, HLADKY, LABADA)





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