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Question About Traditions

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  • Diana Boggs
    Did similar traditional life style parallels exist for aristocracy as on this link? http://www.iabsi. com/gen/public/ traditions. htm What books can I purchase
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 31, 2007
      Did similar traditional life style parallels exist for aristocracy as on this link?
      http://www.iabsi com/gen/public/ traditions. htm

      What books can I purchase or where can I be sent to learn more about the roles that the aristocracy of the regions played. Is the book "Csardas?" reflective on traditions of those times ? Any other relatively factional fictional novels out there to be read ?

      Diana


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nick Holcz
      Thanks for all the posts re passenger lists and who is on them. I went back to Stephen Morse one step search and had a more careful look and found my cousins
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 31, 2007
        Thanks for all the posts re passenger lists and who is on them. I
        went back to Stephen Morse one step search and had a more careful
        look and found my cousins with my aunt, something I hadn't done before.

        Nick
        ps the post about ova I should have said that mum told me that in the
        post ww2 era.
      • Janet Kozlay
        Dear Diana, You pose a very good question. Most writings about this area and its traditions focus almost entirely on the peasantry, which only makes sense
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 31, 2007
          Dear Diana,



          You pose a very good question. Most writings about this area and its
          traditions focus almost entirely on the peasantry, which only makes sense
          since they were the vast majority of the population. And they represent an
          even greater proportion of those who emigrated. In addition, the most
          comprehensive studies were done under a Communist regime, which meant
          sending the message that only the peasant life and culture was worth
          documenting and/or preserving. Nevertheless, there are American descendants
          today of Slovaks and Hungarians who were well off and whose lives were not
          the same as the peasantry.



          Here I think you are probably speaking of the nobility rather than the
          aristocracy. The true aristocracy tended to live in Vienna, spoke Latin and
          German, and probably differed little in their lifestyle from other European
          aristocracy. Some never even visited their homeland and could not speak the
          vernacular languages. The nobility, on the other hand, represented about
          five percent of the population of historic Hungary and were more closely
          tied to the general culture. I will choose to call this culture Hungarian,
          both because present-day Slovakia was a part of the Kingdom of Hungary and
          because in most respects the cultures of Slovaks and Hungarians were the
          same. Though they may have spoken different languages, many of their
          traditions were identical. You may find a particular tradition listed as
          peculiarly Slovak only to find that the identical tradition existed in the
          Hungarian-speaking culture, and vice versa.



          I have found only a little information on the lifestyles and culture of the
          Hungarian nobility. To answer your specific question, however, I have read
          that knowledgeable Hungarians regard Csardas to be quite accurate. I have
          only two other published sources that shed light on the culture of the
          nobility, and neither of them is easy to find. One is a monograph by Attila
          Paladi-Kovacs entitled Ethnic Traditions, Classes and Communities in
          Hungary, published in Budapest in 1996. I found mine through
          www.abebooks.com <http://www.abebooks.com/> , but no copies are listed of it
          today. It might be possible to order it from the Institute of Ethnology,
          Hungarian Academy of Sciences.



          There is another, newer book entitled Bela Bartok and Turn-of-the-Century
          Budapest by Judit Frigyesi which looks like it may be quite interesting. It
          is available through Amazon. I have not seen it, so I cannot comment on how
          useful it is, but it seems to have gotten a good review for discussing the
          social and cultural life of that time.



          My second source is a book by an American, Charles Loring Brace, who made a
          trip through Hungary in 1851 and wrote up his observations in a book
          entitled, rationally enough, Hungary in 1851. His observations include many
          fascinating details regarding the life of the nobility. It is extremely well
          written and is one of my favorite books. Copies of it are available from
          www.abebooks.com <http://www.abebooks.com/> ranging in price of $30.00 for
          one in very poor condition to $213.00. A couple of them are in the $60.00
          price range, which I think is quite reasonable. Interestingly enough, the
          book is so good that it has recently been translated into Hungarian by
          historians there.



          Finally, I am fortunate to have access to a detailed diary written by my
          husband's great-grandfather in the mid-19th century. He was born into a
          wealthy family and he offers fascinating details about various aspects of
          his life as a young man there before his emigration in 1849. This includes
          especially interesting information regarding the relationship between the
          nobility and the serfs as well as what young men did for entertainment
          (ahem!). I am presently working on a book based on an English translation of
          these hundreds of pages, supplementing it with annotations from my own
          research. It is not even close to being finished, but when it is I will
          probably put it on the Internet.



          And to answer your general question about traditions, yes, many of the
          traditions were followed by everyone regardless of economic circumstance-how
          they celebrated holidays, for instance, or going to the fair, or the
          importance of name day celebrations. The differences were in housing, dress,
          what they ate, and even what sorts of dancing they engaged in. Although many
          of these differences were influenced by the larger European community,
          especially Vienna, they yet retained a flavor of their own.



          Janet









          _____

          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Diana Boggs
          Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 3:31 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [S-R] Question About Traditions



          Did similar traditional life style parallels exist for aristocracy as on
          this link?
          http://www.iabsi com/gen/public/ traditions. htm

          What books can I purchase or where can I be sent to learn more about the
          roles that the aristocracy of the regions played. Is the book "Csardas?"
          reflective on traditions of those times ? Any other relatively factional
          fictional novels out there to be read ?

          Diana

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ron Matviyak
          I don t want to answer the initial post asking about traditions because that can lead into so many directions. I recommend that people also subscribe to
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 1, 2007
            I don't want to answer the initial post asking about traditions
            because that can lead into so many directions. I recommend that
            people also subscribe to Slovak-World on Yahoo Groups to enjoy the
            general cultural discussions, since this forum is more centered toward
            genealogy. It does seem quite natural that curiosity about the
            ancestors would lead to curiosity about how they lived and the
            culture. We shared a land with the Hungarians for 800-1000 years (they
            didn't conquer it all the first day!)

            Two great books I must recommend are "A Cultural History of Hungary",
            book 1 subtitled "from the Beginnings to the Eighteenth Century, ISBN
            963 13 4836 9, 1999 Edited by Laszlo Kosa, and volume 2 (same title),
            subtitle "In the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries", ISBN 963 13 4945
            4, also edited by Laszlo Kosa. There is simply too much detail in the
            two books to quote here. I bought my copies in Budapest so I cannot
            say what they cost here or where to find them, but they are well worth
            acquiring. They give a straight presentation on what is known and on
            what basis, and what is unknown about the past, and they do it for all
            strata.

            I find it refreshing to read about everyday life rather than the
            typical history that tells of kings and wars and royalty and skips the
            flesh around the skeleton presented. The communists did emphasize the
            common people, and in doing that they brought many points out that
            were skipped over in conventional histories up to that time. Now it
            seems we are reaping the benefit of historians writing and publishing
            sans the earlier 150 years of nationalism and communism.

            I have both "Budapest 1900, A Historical Portrait of a City & Its
            Culture" and 'Thunder at Twilight, Vienna 1913/1914". They both give
            nice pictures of Austria-Hungary at about the time our ancestors came
            to the New World.

            Ron


            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Diana,
            >
            >
            >
            > You pose a very good question. Most writings about this area and its
            > traditions focus almost entirely on the peasantry, which only makes
            sense
            > since they were the vast majority of the population. And they
            represent an
            > even greater proportion of those who emigrated. In addition, the most
            > comprehensive studies were done under a Communist regime, which meant
            > sending the message that only the peasant life and culture was worth
            > documenting and/or preserving. Nevertheless, there are American
            descendants
            > today of Slovaks and Hungarians who were well off and whose lives
            were not
            > the same as the peasantry.
            >
            >
            >
            > Here I think you are probably speaking of the nobility rather than the
            > aristocracy. The true aristocracy tended to live in Vienna, spoke
            Latin and
            > German, and probably differed little in their lifestyle from other
            European
            > aristocracy. Some never even visited their homeland and could not
            speak the
            > vernacular languages. The nobility, on the other hand, represented about
            > five percent of the population of historic Hungary and were more closely
            > tied to the general culture. I will choose to call this culture
            Hungarian,
            > both because present-day Slovakia was a part of the Kingdom of
            Hungary and
            > because in most respects the cultures of Slovaks and Hungarians were the
            > same. Though they may have spoken different languages, many of their
            > traditions were identical. You may find a particular tradition listed as
            > peculiarly Slovak only to find that the identical tradition existed
            in the
            > Hungarian-speaking culture, and vice versa.
            >
            >
            >
            > I have found only a little information on the lifestyles and culture
            of the
            > Hungarian nobility. To answer your specific question, however, I
            have read
            > that knowledgeable Hungarians regard Csardas to be quite accurate. I
            have
            > only two other published sources that shed light on the culture of the
            > nobility, and neither of them is easy to find. One is a monograph by
            Attila
            > Paladi-Kovacs entitled Ethnic Traditions, Classes and Communities in
            > Hungary, published in Budapest in 1996. I found mine through
            > www.abebooks.com <http://www.abebooks.com/> , but no copies are
            listed of it
            > today. It might be possible to order it from the Institute of Ethnology,
            > Hungarian Academy of Sciences.
            >
            >
            >
            > There is another, newer book entitled Bela Bartok and
            Turn-of-the-Century
            > Budapest by Judit Frigyesi which looks like it may be quite
            interesting. It
            > is available through Amazon. I have not seen it, so I cannot comment
            on how
            > useful it is, but it seems to have gotten a good review for
            discussing the
            > social and cultural life of that time.
            >
            >
            >
            > My second source is a book by an American, Charles Loring Brace, who
            made a
            > trip through Hungary in 1851 and wrote up his observations in a book
            > entitled, rationally enough, Hungary in 1851. His observations
            include many
            > fascinating details regarding the life of the nobility. It is
            extremely well
            > written and is one of my favorite books. Copies of it are available from
            > www.abebooks.com <http://www.abebooks.com/> ranging in price of
            $30.00 for
            > one in very poor condition to $213.00. A couple of them are in the
            $60.00
            > price range, which I think is quite reasonable. Interestingly
            enough, the
            > book is so good that it has recently been translated into Hungarian by
            > historians there.
            >
            >
            >
            > Finally, I am fortunate to have access to a detailed diary written by my
            > husband's great-grandfather in the mid-19th century. He was born into a
            > wealthy family and he offers fascinating details about various
            aspects of
            > his life as a young man there before his emigration in 1849. This
            includes
            > especially interesting information regarding the relationship
            between the
            > nobility and the serfs as well as what young men did for entertainment
            > (ahem!). I am presently working on a book based on an English
            translation of
            > these hundreds of pages, supplementing it with annotations from my own
            > research. It is not even close to being finished, but when it is I will
            > probably put it on the Internet.
            >
            >
            >
            > And to answer your general question about traditions, yes, many of the
            > traditions were followed by everyone regardless of economic
            circumstance-how
            > they celebrated holidays, for instance, or going to the fair, or the
            > importance of name day celebrations. The differences were in
            housing, dress,
            > what they ate, and even what sorts of dancing they engaged in.
            Although many
            > of these differences were influenced by the larger European community,
            > especially Vienna, they yet retained a flavor of their own.
            >
            >
            >
            > Janet
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of Diana Boggs
            > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 3:31 PM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [S-R] Question About Traditions
            >
            >
            >
            > Did similar traditional life style parallels exist for aristocracy as on
            > this link?
            > http://www.iabsi com/gen/public/ traditions. htm
            >
            > What books can I purchase or where can I be sent to learn more about the
            > roles that the aristocracy of the regions played. Is the book "Csardas?"
            > reflective on traditions of those times ? Any other relatively factional
            > fictional novels out there to be read ?
            >
            > Diana
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • david1law@aol.com
            Dear Janet: I just wanted to let you know that I find myself often impressed with your knowledge and explanations regarding genealogy and Slovakia. I have
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 1, 2007
              Dear Janet:

              I just wanted to let you know that I find myself often impressed with your
              knowledge and explanations regarding genealogy and Slovakia. I have learned a
              lot from your various postings, especially when you share your knowledge
              regarding various traditions and societal elements in Slovakia. Thank you.

              Best regards,

              David





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