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RE: [S-R] Names of Females

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  • helene cincebeaux
    Hi Janet and all - only recently read that the ova either came in with Communism or became more prevalent then - I am curious about this - how about it
    Message 1 of 65 , Oct 31, 2007
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      Hi Janet and all - only recently read that the "ova"
      either came in with Communism or became more prevalent
      then - I am curious about this - how about it experts
      -
      can you enlighten us?

      helene

      --- Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

      > Thanks, Milan, for clearing up the “Andrejova.” I’ve
      > never run across a use
      > of the “ova” with a given name, probably because you
      > don’t see it in
      > official records.
      >
      >
      >
      > Yes, I agree that it is fun when you finally figure
      > out what is going on.
      > Perhaps it’s not so much fun for those who end up
      > looking for the wrong
      > names. It took me years to find out why I never
      > could find any Kozlays
      > anywhere.
      >
      >
      >
      > Janet
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of MILAN HUBA
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 1:28 PM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Names of Females
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear Janet:
      >
      > I think we agree on just about everything. We just
      > said it in different
      > ways.
      >
      > But apparently one point in my explanation was not
      > entirely clear. Let me
      > try to make it clearer.
      >
      > I clearly understand that a wife would adopt her
      > husband’s surname after
      > marriage. My dear grandmother generally followed
      > this rule, and after her
      > marriage she dropped her (maiden) Banas-Zajacz
      > surname and adopted her
      > husband’s Huba-Maliniak surname. She used the female
      > “ova” ending on her
      > surname but for purposes of my emails, I just used
      > the male form of the
      > surnames. This probably confused the issue. Huba=
      > Male name; Hubova=female
      > version of the same name.
      >
      > However, notwithstanding all of the above, on some
      > documents my grandmother
      > signed her name as “Anna Andrejova”. In this
      > context, the “ova” in
      > “Andrejova” is not being used designate a female
      > version of a husband’s or a
      > father’s surname.. Neither of them had the surname
      > of Andrej. Andrej was her
      > husband’s first name. I believe that in the context
      > in which the “ova” was
      > used she was identifying herself as Andrew’s wife.
      > She was signing her name
      > as “Andrew’s Anna” or perhaps “Anna wife of Andrew”.
      >
      > If anybody has a different explanation or
      > translation of “Anna Andrejova”, I
      > would be interested in hearing it.
      >
      > Like I said, ain't Slovak genealogy fun!
      >
      > Milan Huba
      >
      > Janet Kozlay <kozlay@comcast.
      > <mailto:kozlay%40comcast.net> net> wrote: Dear
      > Milan,
      >
      > Do not confuse the use of “ova” in Slovak names with
      > the use of “né” in
      > Hungarian names. Their use is similar but not
      > identical. Customs also
      > changed over time.
      >
      > Your Banas-Zajacs example is a fairly common
      > occurrence of the adoption of
      > prenames (Banas) to distinguish that family from
      > other Zajacs families. It
      > was not uncommon for the prename to eventually
      > replace the old family name.
      > Until that happened, members of the family might be
      > found under Banas,
      > Zajacs, or Banas Zajacs, or even Zajacs Banas, and a
      > single person might be
      > found under more than one version, which you have
      > also discovered. It is
      > possible that the Banas name was chosen because of
      > godparents, but it is not
      > necessarily the case. The godparents might have been
      > related to the parents.
      > In that case the prename may have come from a wife’s
      > family name. Sometimes
      > it is not possible to determine where the prename
      > came from.
      >
      > The adoption of aliases was fairly common, and they
      > were not always related
      > to the use of prenames. My husband’s
      > great-grandfather (1826-1883, emigrated
      > 1849) was known by three different names during his
      > 23 years living in
      > Hungary, and his father was also known by another
      > variation of one of the
      > names. It is well established by ethnographers that
      > a man might be known by
      > one name in his home village and a different one in
      > the neighboring village.
      >
      > I think you still may have some confusion about Anna
      > Andrejova. My
      > understanding is as follows: If she were unmarried,
      > her father’s family name
      > would be some form of Andrej. If she were married,
      > it would be her husband’s
      > family name, not his given name. In other words,
      > wives and daughters take
      > the family name of the head of the family and add
      > “ova” to it. This is also
      > true today, and if I am not mistaken, it is
      > formalized by law. If I am wrong
      > about any of this, I hope someone will correct me.
      >
      > The suffix “né” in Hungarian names is added to the
      > given name of the
      > husband, such as “Fazekas Istvánné” for Mrs. Stephen
      > (István) Fazekas.
      >
      > In sum, it is not always so very simple.
      >
      > Janet
      >
      > (If any of this comes out scrambled because of the
      > punctuation marks, let me
      > know and I will redo it.)
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of MILAN HUBA
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:44 AM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@
      > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
      > yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Mail Order Brides/ Names of
      > Females
      >
      > You shouldn’t be confused about last names. It is
      > all very simple. Let me
      > explain.
      >
      > On the bottom of my grandmother’s passport photo she
      > signed her name as
      > “Anna Andrejova” But, “Andrejova” was not her last
      > name. Andrej was the
      > first name of her husband. So she identified herself
      > as “Andrej’s wife”. Got
      > it now?
      >
      > In the village (Liptovska Luzna) where my paternal
      > grandparents lived, last
      > names did not seem to be that important and people
      > often informally adopted
      > or were called by other last names. My maternal
      > great grandfather was called
      > Matus Banas-Zajacs. But his father did not have the
      > Banas part of the name
      > and was known simply as Stefan Zajacs. Where did the
      > name Banas come from?
      > Doing a little research I discovered that Matus’s
      > Godparents were called
      > Banas’. So his godparents name was added to his
      > Matus’ Zajacs surname.
      > That’s makes sense now, doesn’t it.?
      >
      > Matus wife was Katharina Dudash. They had thirteen
      > children together. When
      > their children became adults, some of them
      > informally dropped a part of
      > their double Banas-Zajacs surname. One son chose the
      > Banas surname, his
      > brother liked the Zajacs surname better and adopted
      > it.
      === message truncated ===


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    • Jody Gonda
      Yes, I do have the records - I had scanned them in this computer. Can I send them to you for you to take a look? Having someone to take a look and let me
      Message 65 of 65 , Nov 1, 2007
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        Yes, I do have the records - I had scanned them in this computer. Can I send them to you for you to take a look? Having someone to take a look and let me know what is really said would be sooo helpful!
        And, yes, I did mis-spell Abauj-Torna - sorry!

        Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
        Dear Jody,

        First off, Abaujvar was in Abauj-Torna megye (county), not Abney Torra. See
        http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/vmlista.htm for where the megye was
        located in relation to the country at the time. You can also see a beautiful
        map of the megye itself there. Abaujvar is in the yellow section, north of
        Goncz. Note that Panyok is very close to Abaujvar.

        Second, do you have a copy of Istvan's (no "e") birth record that shows
        Klara Fazekas to be his mother? If so, look at it very carefully. If his
        father's name was Fazekas, his mother would have a different name. So, for
        example, Mary Molnar's parents should be listed as Jozsef Molnar and Maria
        Varga. Likewise, Klara Fazekas's parents were Istvan Fazekas and Elizabeth
        (Erzsebet?) Szabo. The information you give suggests that Klara was not
        married when she gave birth to Istvan, but the church record should indicate
        this. If you did not make a copy of the page for this entry, I suggest you
        go back and do so. And it is important to get the whole page.

        It is greatly to our advantage that married women kept their maiden names.
        Otherwise it would be next to impossible to trace female lines in the
        family.

        It would also be interesting to see the page for the entry of Klara's
        marriage to Bardos. It might give further information as to her status.

        Church records often contain important information that is easily overlooked
        when (1) we look only for names and dates and (2) when we cannot read the
        language. Making a good copy is important, and there are always people more
        than willing to help read and/or translate the other information.

        So far I have come up empty with your manifests. But we have to keep trying.

        Janet

        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Jody Gonda
        Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 12:20 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] searching manifests, was Mail Order Brides

        First - sorry this is soo long, but wanted to explain what I do have on
        file.
        With my family information that I got from relatives, it made it easier to
        search the films in LDS. Reel 0623962, of the Reformed Church/Abaujvar,
        Abney Torra Hungry, was the best.
        Steve (Istevan) Fazekas's birth record was found - his dob is: 31 Aug 1878.
        The record did list his mother as Klara Fazekas. Even though his dob was off
        by a couple days per family members who told me he always celebrated his
        birthday on Sept. 8th, I knew Klara was his mother from other records I had
        on file from family members.
        I then found Klara Fazekas's birth record of 20 Oct 1857, also of Abaujvar.
        Her parents are listed on the record as Istevan and Elizabeth Szabo Fazekas.
        I found Steve (Istevan) Fazekas's ship record from the Ellis Island site -
        he came to the US
        29 Apr 1896 on the H.H. Meier. This also confirmed family information, as
        Steve's son had 'interviewed' him for a school paper once, so I have his
        history. Steve had said that he was from Abaujvar, an agricultural village
        of about a thousand population, located on the Ernad river in Eastern
        Hungary. He said his family once owned a large amount of land (wealth was
        measured by how much land a man owned). He said his grandfather, was the
        leading man in the village, backed loans made by the bank, but when people
        could not repay the loans he lost most of his holdings. All that was left
        was 6 acres that went to his daughter, Klara, who was Steve's mother. His
        Aunts and Uncles married while his grandfather still had his wealth, so they
        received large parcels of land as wedding gifts. Steve was an infant when
        his father died (I cannot find Steve's father's name!) and his mother, Klara
        remarried soon after to Andrew Bardos on 5 May 1883 (I found this record).
        Steve
        received an education of 6 years of school and then left Abaujvar to work on
        an Uncle's farm in the village of Panjok (sp?). He worked on the farm until
        he left for the US.
        I had heard that his step-father, Andrew Bardos, came to the US a few years
        earlier and so Steve went to Dillonvale, Ohio to meet him. His mother and
        step siblings came a few years after Steve, although I have not been able to
        find their ship records. I have found the step-siblings birth records and
        also Andrew Bardos's death record.
        Molnar's - I have Mary Molnar's birth record - 1 March 1884, and that has
        Joseph and Maria (Varga) Molnar as her parents. I also have her parents
        marriage record, 3 Nov 1880. I have Joseph Molnar's birth record too - 1855.

        So - what I am currently looking for are the ship records for Mary Molnar,
        Andrew Bardos, and his wife, Klara Bardos. I also would like to find Klara
        Bardo's death record - I know she died while in Ohio. Of course, I would
        absolutely love to know the name of Steve Fazekas's father!

        johnqadam <johnqadam@rogers. <mailto:johnqadam%40rogers.com> com> wrote:
        >>> Yes, I have gone to the LDS Ctr., but just haven't been back for a
        couple years now. That's where I was able to find her birth record,
        her parents marriage record, etc. <<<

        Aha! Was your Obaujvar = Abaujvar? Or Obudavar?

        What was the RELIGION? RC, GC or Lutheran/Evangelical? What date of
        birth? What marriage date?

        In church records, the given names were likely shown as Istvan and
        Maria, not Steve and Mary. You found those records.

        Given what you already KNOW, what is the question you need an answer
        to? Are you simply trying to find the Ellis Island entry for Istvan and
        Maria Molnar after they were married in Hungary?

        Jody
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        Jody
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