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RE: [S-R] Village Surname

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  • konekta@nm.psg.sk
    In Urbar from 1688 I found only one Klaczan, being a full sessio sedliak ( three languages :-) in Rajec, belonging to the Estate of the Zilina Jesuites.
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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      In Urbar from 1688 I found only one Klaczan, being a full sessio sedliak (
      three languages :-) in Rajec, belonging to the Estate of the Zilina
      Jesuites.
      Vladimir

      _____

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of gklodzen@...
      Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 2:51 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Village Surname




      Michael, I've suspected that the surname KLADZAN, which I am researching,
      might have originated in the Slovak village of KLADZA'NY, but to date it
      seems
      that all of the KLADZANS I've discovered, late 18th century to late 19th,
      lived in either VINNE or MICHALOVCE. Perhaps an earlier ancestor came from
      KLADZANY and took that village's name as his/her own. In any event, I am
      presently quite happy to have found what records I did of my Slovak KLADZAN
      ancestors, ...whoever they might have been originally. Thank's for your
      interesting
      observation re: Village Surnames.

      Eugene Klodzen



      In a message dated 8/30/2007 9:01:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      mgmojher@comcast. <mailto:mgmojher%40comcast.net> net writes:

      On my trip to Slovakia in June I came across the use of a "village surname".

      I was searching for a family and was directed to a residence where the
      family was using the surname I was looking for. During our conversation we
      were
      told that the surname I was looking for was not the families real surname.
      They
      said they had chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one.
      I was told three other families in the village had made this choice.
      I was told that immigrants from the village to the United States would some
      times chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one once they

      got there.
      The man I was speaking with admitted that they have used the "village
      surname" for so long most people in the village do not know his real
      surname.
      The ramifications of a "village surname" for someone doing a search are
      obvious. As the gentleman told me, "If someone came looking for someone by
      my
      real surname they would be told no one by that name lives here." It also
      makes
      searching for those immigrants, as I was doing, almost impossible since we
      don't know their real surname.
      An example might be our new member Julia Anderson. She is searching the
      surname Tornoc. Janet Kozlay explained that Tornoc translates to "from
      Tornoc".
      I'm not saying Tornoc is a "village surname". But it is in the nature of
      what
      one might be.
      As anyone come across the problem of where the surname they were searching
      for could fit into the category of a "village surname"?
      Michael Mojher

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    • Michael Mojher
      In the case of my original posting on village surnames the thing I found interesting is that the village surname that was used had no correlation to the name
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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        In the case of my original posting on village surnames the thing I found interesting is that the village surname that was used had no correlation to the name of the village. The village name was not the root word for the surname.
        In my surname data base for my paternal ancestral village is the name Plavnisky. Hromos sits between Plavec and Plavnica. So there appears to be a correlation between the surname and those two towns.
        The use of village surnames seems to beg the question of why they are adopted by a family. In the case of an immigrant there can be a logical answer. For a family that has long been established in a village under their true surname this choice to adopt the village surname seems rather strange.
        In the village I visited I would think there would be some confusion since three families with different surnames adopted the village surname. In my case, I visited each thinking that they were of the same family. When talking with to each family they readily revealed their true surnames. It appears they had nothing to hide because of their real surname.
        Obviously, a return trip to ask why would be in order. If anyone has any insight into this phenomenon and why village surnames are adopted I would appreciate hearing about it.
        Michael Mojher
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Michael Mojher
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:58 PM
        Subject: [S-R] Village Surname


        On my trip to Slovakia in June I came across the use of a "village surname".
        I was searching for a family and was directed to a residence where the family was using the surname I was looking for. During our conversation we were told that the surname I was looking for was not the families real surname. They said they had chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one. I was told three other families in the village had made this choice.
        I was told that immigrants from the village to the United States would some times chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one once they got there.
        The man I was speaking with admitted that they have used the "village surname" for so long most people in the village do not know his real surname.
        The ramifications of a "village surname" for someone doing a search are obvious. As the gentleman told me, "If someone came looking for someone by my real surname they would be told no one by that name lives here." It also makes searching for those immigrants, as I was doing, almost impossible since we don't know their real surname.
        An example might be our new member Julia Anderson. She is searching the surname Tornoc. Janet Kozlay explained that Tornoc translates to "from Tornoc". I'm not saying Tornoc is a "village surname". But it is in the nature of what one might be.
        As anyone come across the problem of where the surname they were searching for could fit into the category of a "village surname"?
        Michael Mojher

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Janet Kozlay
        Michael, I am not sure that the following applies to what you are speaking of, but some people did use different surnames. You see this in the church records
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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          Michael, I am not sure that the following applies to what you are speaking
          of, but some people did use different surnames. You see this in the church
          records with “alias” in Latin records and “másként” in Hungarian ones. But
          aliases were not always indicated.



          My husband’s great grandfather, and his father before him, went by both
          János Kecskés and János Kozik, depending on where he lived, this in the
          first half of the 19th century. Ethnographers have noted that a man might be
          known by one surname in his home village and a different one in the
          neighboring village. He then took yet a third name some time before joining
          the army in 1849. Such name changes were not at all uncommon in the 19th
          century. Obviously this makes genealogical research exceedingly difficult. I
          discovered one of the name changes only by chance by noting that his mother
          seemed to be married to men with two different names.



          Janet





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • david1law@aol.com
          Hi Michael: I hope that I understand your most recent message regarding a village surname and that three unrelated families adopted the same village
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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            Hi Michael:

            I hope that I understand your most recent message regarding a "village
            surname" and that three unrelated families adopted the same "village surname." I
            am not sure if you mean that the village surname was PLAVNISKY, but if so,
            you appear to be on the right track with regard to PLAVNICA. A surname ending
            with the -SKY suffix denotes in the simplest terms "OF __________."
            Sometimes, when looking back on records with our 21st century eyes, things may
            sometimes appear confusing. In my research, I have found that there is a reason
            behind the alternative surname or an alias surname, and that the reason
            sometimes only becomes apparent when searching back through the records. In the case
            of the village surname, the simplest answer appears to be that each of the
            families lived in that village for a period of time. It would make perfect
            sense to other people living in the new village, as everyone would know that
            the family originally came from "X village." (This would be particularly
            helpful if the original surname was a common surname in the new village, since the
            village surname would immediately draw a distinction and avoid confusing the
            separate family clans in the new village).. The village surname would also
            serve as a reminder to members of the next generation of the family that have
            kindred in "X village." I hope this helps a little. I believe you are on the
            right track.

            Best regards,

            David



            ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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          • konekta@nm.psg.sk
            It is known that the first mayors of the newly founded villages were carrying the village surname . Vladimir _____ From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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              It is known that the first mayors of the newly founded villages were
              carrying the " village surname".
              Vladimir

              _____

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of david1law@...
              Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 8:09 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Village Surname



              Hi Michael:

              I hope that I understand your most recent message regarding a "village
              surname" and that three unrelated families adopted the same "village
              surname." I
              am not sure if you mean that the village surname was PLAVNISKY, but if so,
              you appear to be on the right track with regard to PLAVNICA. A surname
              ending
              with the -SKY suffix denotes in the simplest terms "OF __________."
              Sometimes, when looking back on records with our 21st century eyes, things
              may
              sometimes appear confusing. In my research, I have found that there is a
              reason
              behind the alternative surname or an alias surname, and that the reason
              sometimes only becomes apparent when searching back through the records. In
              the case
              of the village surname, the simplest answer appears to be that each of the
              families lived in that village for a period of time. It would make perfect
              sense to other people living in the new village, as everyone would know that

              the family originally came from "X village." (This would be particularly
              helpful if the original surname was a common surname in the new village,
              since the
              village surname would immediately draw a distinction and avoid confusing the

              separate family clans in the new village).. The village surname would also
              serve as a reminder to members of the next generation of the family that
              have
              kindred in "X village." I hope this helps a little. I believe you are on the

              right track.

              Best regards,

              David

              ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
              at
              http://discover. <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>
              aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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            • konekta@nm.psg.sk
              It s Plavnicky, not Plavnisky. Vladimir _____ From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of david1law@aol.com Sent:
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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                It's Plavnicky, not Plavnisky.
                Vladimir

                _____

                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of david1law@...
                Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 8:09 PM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Village Surname



                Hi Michael:

                I hope that I understand your most recent message regarding a "village
                surname" and that three unrelated families adopted the same "village
                surname." I
                am not sure if you mean that the village surname was PLAVNISKY, but if so,
                you appear to be on the right track with regard to PLAVNICA. A surname
                ending
                with the -SKY suffix denotes in the simplest terms "OF __________."
                Sometimes, when looking back on records with our 21st century eyes, things
                may
                sometimes appear confusing. In my research, I have found that there is a
                reason
                behind the alternative surname or an alias surname, and that the reason
                sometimes only becomes apparent when searching back through the records. In
                the case
                of the village surname, the simplest answer appears to be that each of the
                families lived in that village for a period of time. It would make perfect
                sense to other people living in the new village, as everyone would know that

                the family originally came from "X village." (This would be particularly
                helpful if the original surname was a common surname in the new village,
                since the
                village surname would immediately draw a distinction and avoid confusing the

                separate family clans in the new village).. The village surname would also
                serve as a reminder to members of the next generation of the family that
                have
                kindred in "X village." I hope this helps a little. I believe you are on the

                right track.

                Best regards,

                David

                ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
                at
                http://discover. <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>
                aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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              • Michael Mojher
                Vladimir Bohinc on his webpage says wrote: What is an Alias? Alias or aka or nickname appears sometimes with individuals, mostly male, in church records and
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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                  Vladimir Bohinc on his webpage says wrote:

                  "What is an Alias?

                  Alias or aka or nickname appears sometimes with individuals, mostly male, in church records and other documents.

                  The main reason for someone to have an alias appears to be the need of community to tell apart several families with the same surname. Alias was always given to a person or family by the community there were living in. However, there are also instances, where someone was alone with his surname, but still had an alias. He probably brought it from another place when he married into a new community or was it given to him for some other reasons. Very often it is not possible to explain the meaning of an alias. "

                  On my trip to Slovak in 2005 I discovered that in my paternal ancestral village of Hromos and Plavnica they used "Do" names, do being Slovak for of. The Do name worked similarly to an alias, but in this case the Do name was given to a genealogical branch of the surname. I was told that the Mojchers of Hromos had three Do names; Adama, Palody and Zid. The purpose of the Do name was to delineate people of the same surname who shared the same given name. The Do name was used instead of the surname when referring to the individual. In my case if there were two Michael Mojhers in Hromos I would be call Michael Adama. On my last trip in June I was going through some 1800's legal documents. On them the Do name was used. At the time of the document their were two Jozef Mojchers, an Adama and a Zid.

                  In Plavnica my Rindos family had five Do names. I asked my translator if any of the names had English translations. She was very reluctant to give me one of them. Finally, she told me it translated to "C*****s***". It appears the Slovaks have a sense of humor when giving out Do names.

                  I have not found the Do names used in the church or civil records for births, marriages or deaths. The Do names as far as I have determined is an oral tradition and has never been written down. Since it is based on genealogical lines it has proved to be very useful in my research. I can now, upon meeting a Mojcher, ask for their Do and know instantly which branch of the family they are related to.

                  The Do names are a more sensible system than the use of an alias or the taking on of a village name.

                  Michael Mojher

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Janet Kozlay
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:11 AM
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Village Surname


                  Michael, I am not sure that the following applies to what you are speaking
                  of, but some people did use different surnames. You see this in the church
                  records with "alias" in Latin records and "másként" in Hungarian ones. But
                  aliases were not always indicated.

                  My husband's great grandfather, and his father before him, went by both
                  János Kecskés and János Kozik, depending on where he lived, this in the
                  first half of the 19th century. Ethnographers have noted that a man might be
                  known by one surname in his home village and a different one in the
                  neighboring village. He then took yet a third name some time before joining
                  the army in 1849. Such name changes were not at all uncommon in the 19th
                  century. Obviously this makes genealogical research exceedingly difficult. I
                  discovered one of the name changes only by chance by noting that his mother
                  seemed to be married to men with two different names.

                  Janet

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • treimer@nycap.rr.com
                  Dear fellow list members, On Saturday October 20, 2007, the Carpathian German Landsmannschaft of North America will hold its annual convention in Danbury,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 4, 2007
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                    Dear fellow list members,

                    On Saturday October 20, 2007, the Carpathian German Landsmannschaft of
                    North America will hold its annual convention in Danbury, Connecticut,
                    at the Holiday Inn, 80 Newton Road, Danbury, CT 06810. For
                    directions, see
                    http://www.danburyhi.com/

                    The social part will begin around 5pm and go till 10-11 pm. We have a
                    common dinner, raffle, dancing, a little exhibit on our ancestral
                    area, and socializing. We are a group of people born/descended, from
                    Germans living in the old Upper Hungary, today’s Slovakia, mainly from
                    the Zips, but also from the Hauerland and Pressburg/Danube Valley.
                    Many of us are also into genealogy, and we’ll have a discussion table
                    for that. The cost of the dinner is $40.

                    If interested, contact for more information and registration forms
                    Herb Zaborsky at herbzaborsky@... or myself (Thomas Reimer) at
                    treimer@...

                    Thomas
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