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Re: [S-R] Village Surname

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  • david1law@aol.com
    Hi Michael: The use of what you term a village surname does occur, at times, when a family clan grows quite large. This is often seen among the noble
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 31 1:24 AM
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      Hi Michael:

      The use of what you term a "village surname" does occur, at times, when a
      family clan grows quite large. This is often seen among the noble families
      where various branches are named after their respective estates, and the
      original surname is replaced with the new surname based on the estate. In the
      historical records, one will often find the new surname and then the "DE GENERE"
      accompanied with the old surname to indicate that they were from that original
      family. If the person was from a noble family, it may be possible to check
      the records in the ARCANUM database (accessible through Bill Tarkulich's
      website) and track down the original surname. If the "village surname" was not
      of a noble origin and/or of more recent vintage, then one would need to look
      through the church records in the village and most likely do a detailed
      CLUSTER GENEALOGY of the entire family clan to see if there any possible matches in
      information (births, marriages, etc.) in the church records to the original
      surname. The "village surname" could possibly be an alias listed in the
      church records. A researcher would have to be exceedingly careful in attempting
      to ascertain the original surname because a hasty or wrong assumption and the
      researcher is off on the proverbial wild goose chase. The attempt to find
      the original surname is somewhat akin to trying to ascertain the surname in
      the European church records where there is a variant in spelling (such as an
      Americanized version of the surname). The more data (births, marriages, etc.)
      that matches, the better. In any event, a researcher would need to proceed
      very carefully, and do a CLUSTER GENEALOGY of the current family with the
      "village surname" so as to form a very detailed database, and then see if that
      data yields any clues as to the identity of the original surname.


      Best regards,


      David



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    • gklodzen@aol.com
      Michael, I ve suspected that the surname KLADZAN, which I am researching, might have originated in the Slovak village of KLADZA NY, but to date it seems
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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        Michael, I've suspected that the surname KLADZAN, which I am researching,
        might have originated in the Slovak village of KLADZA'NY, but to date it seems
        that all of the KLADZANS I've discovered, late 18th century to late 19th,
        lived in either VINNE or MICHALOVCE. Perhaps an earlier ancestor came from
        KLADZANY and took that village's name as his/her own. In any event, I am
        presently quite happy to have found what records I did of my Slovak KLADZAN
        ancestors, ...whoever they might have been originally. Thank's for your interesting
        observation re: Village Surnames.

        Eugene Klodzen



        In a message dated 8/30/2007 9:01:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        mgmojher@... writes:

        On my trip to Slovakia in June I came across the use of a "village surname".
        I was searching for a family and was directed to a residence where the
        family was using the surname I was looking for. During our conversation we were
        told that the surname I was looking for was not the families real surname. They
        said they had chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one.
        I was told three other families in the village had made this choice.
        I was told that immigrants from the village to the United States would some
        times chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one once they
        got there.
        The man I was speaking with admitted that they have used the "village
        surname" for so long most people in the village do not know his real surname.
        The ramifications of a "village surname" for someone doing a search are
        obvious. As the gentleman told me, "If someone came looking for someone by my
        real surname they would be told no one by that name lives here." It also makes
        searching for those immigrants, as I was doing, almost impossible since we
        don't know their real surname.
        An example might be our new member Julia Anderson. She is searching the
        surname Tornoc. Janet Kozlay explained that Tornoc translates to "from Tornoc".
        I'm not saying Tornoc is a "village surname". But it is in the nature of what
        one might be.
        As anyone come across the problem of where the surname they were searching
        for could fit into the category of a "village surname"?
        Michael Mojher







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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • konekta@nm.psg.sk
        In Urbar from 1688 I found only one Klaczan, being a full sessio sedliak ( three languages :-) in Rajec, belonging to the Estate of the Zilina Jesuites.
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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          In Urbar from 1688 I found only one Klaczan, being a full sessio sedliak (
          three languages :-) in Rajec, belonging to the Estate of the Zilina
          Jesuites.
          Vladimir

          _____

          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of gklodzen@...
          Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 2:51 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Village Surname




          Michael, I've suspected that the surname KLADZAN, which I am researching,
          might have originated in the Slovak village of KLADZA'NY, but to date it
          seems
          that all of the KLADZANS I've discovered, late 18th century to late 19th,
          lived in either VINNE or MICHALOVCE. Perhaps an earlier ancestor came from
          KLADZANY and took that village's name as his/her own. In any event, I am
          presently quite happy to have found what records I did of my Slovak KLADZAN
          ancestors, ...whoever they might have been originally. Thank's for your
          interesting
          observation re: Village Surnames.

          Eugene Klodzen



          In a message dated 8/30/2007 9:01:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          mgmojher@comcast. <mailto:mgmojher%40comcast.net> net writes:

          On my trip to Slovakia in June I came across the use of a "village surname".

          I was searching for a family and was directed to a residence where the
          family was using the surname I was looking for. During our conversation we
          were
          told that the surname I was looking for was not the families real surname.
          They
          said they had chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one.
          I was told three other families in the village had made this choice.
          I was told that immigrants from the village to the United States would some
          times chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one once they

          got there.
          The man I was speaking with admitted that they have used the "village
          surname" for so long most people in the village do not know his real
          surname.
          The ramifications of a "village surname" for someone doing a search are
          obvious. As the gentleman told me, "If someone came looking for someone by
          my
          real surname they would be told no one by that name lives here." It also
          makes
          searching for those immigrants, as I was doing, almost impossible since we
          don't know their real surname.
          An example might be our new member Julia Anderson. She is searching the
          surname Tornoc. Janet Kozlay explained that Tornoc translates to "from
          Tornoc".
          I'm not saying Tornoc is a "village surname". But it is in the nature of
          what
          one might be.
          As anyone come across the problem of where the surname they were searching
          for could fit into the category of a "village surname"?
          Michael Mojher

          ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
          at
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          aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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        • Michael Mojher
          In the case of my original posting on village surnames the thing I found interesting is that the village surname that was used had no correlation to the name
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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            In the case of my original posting on village surnames the thing I found interesting is that the village surname that was used had no correlation to the name of the village. The village name was not the root word for the surname.
            In my surname data base for my paternal ancestral village is the name Plavnisky. Hromos sits between Plavec and Plavnica. So there appears to be a correlation between the surname and those two towns.
            The use of village surnames seems to beg the question of why they are adopted by a family. In the case of an immigrant there can be a logical answer. For a family that has long been established in a village under their true surname this choice to adopt the village surname seems rather strange.
            In the village I visited I would think there would be some confusion since three families with different surnames adopted the village surname. In my case, I visited each thinking that they were of the same family. When talking with to each family they readily revealed their true surnames. It appears they had nothing to hide because of their real surname.
            Obviously, a return trip to ask why would be in order. If anyone has any insight into this phenomenon and why village surnames are adopted I would appreciate hearing about it.
            Michael Mojher
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Michael Mojher
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:58 PM
            Subject: [S-R] Village Surname


            On my trip to Slovakia in June I came across the use of a "village surname".
            I was searching for a family and was directed to a residence where the family was using the surname I was looking for. During our conversation we were told that the surname I was looking for was not the families real surname. They said they had chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one. I was told three other families in the village had made this choice.
            I was told that immigrants from the village to the United States would some times chose to use the "village surname" instead of their real one once they got there.
            The man I was speaking with admitted that they have used the "village surname" for so long most people in the village do not know his real surname.
            The ramifications of a "village surname" for someone doing a search are obvious. As the gentleman told me, "If someone came looking for someone by my real surname they would be told no one by that name lives here." It also makes searching for those immigrants, as I was doing, almost impossible since we don't know their real surname.
            An example might be our new member Julia Anderson. She is searching the surname Tornoc. Janet Kozlay explained that Tornoc translates to "from Tornoc". I'm not saying Tornoc is a "village surname". But it is in the nature of what one might be.
            As anyone come across the problem of where the surname they were searching for could fit into the category of a "village surname"?
            Michael Mojher

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Janet Kozlay
            Michael, I am not sure that the following applies to what you are speaking of, but some people did use different surnames. You see this in the church records
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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              Michael, I am not sure that the following applies to what you are speaking
              of, but some people did use different surnames. You see this in the church
              records with “alias” in Latin records and “másként” in Hungarian ones. But
              aliases were not always indicated.



              My husband’s great grandfather, and his father before him, went by both
              János Kecskés and János Kozik, depending on where he lived, this in the
              first half of the 19th century. Ethnographers have noted that a man might be
              known by one surname in his home village and a different one in the
              neighboring village. He then took yet a third name some time before joining
              the army in 1849. Such name changes were not at all uncommon in the 19th
              century. Obviously this makes genealogical research exceedingly difficult. I
              discovered one of the name changes only by chance by noting that his mother
              seemed to be married to men with two different names.



              Janet





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • david1law@aol.com
              Hi Michael: I hope that I understand your most recent message regarding a village surname and that three unrelated families adopted the same village
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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                Hi Michael:

                I hope that I understand your most recent message regarding a "village
                surname" and that three unrelated families adopted the same "village surname." I
                am not sure if you mean that the village surname was PLAVNISKY, but if so,
                you appear to be on the right track with regard to PLAVNICA. A surname ending
                with the -SKY suffix denotes in the simplest terms "OF __________."
                Sometimes, when looking back on records with our 21st century eyes, things may
                sometimes appear confusing. In my research, I have found that there is a reason
                behind the alternative surname or an alias surname, and that the reason
                sometimes only becomes apparent when searching back through the records. In the case
                of the village surname, the simplest answer appears to be that each of the
                families lived in that village for a period of time. It would make perfect
                sense to other people living in the new village, as everyone would know that
                the family originally came from "X village." (This would be particularly
                helpful if the original surname was a common surname in the new village, since the
                village surname would immediately draw a distinction and avoid confusing the
                separate family clans in the new village).. The village surname would also
                serve as a reminder to members of the next generation of the family that have
                kindred in "X village." I hope this helps a little. I believe you are on the
                right track.

                Best regards,

                David



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              • konekta@nm.psg.sk
                It is known that the first mayors of the newly founded villages were carrying the village surname . Vladimir _____ From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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                  It is known that the first mayors of the newly founded villages were
                  carrying the " village surname".
                  Vladimir

                  _____

                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of david1law@...
                  Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 8:09 PM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Village Surname



                  Hi Michael:

                  I hope that I understand your most recent message regarding a "village
                  surname" and that three unrelated families adopted the same "village
                  surname." I
                  am not sure if you mean that the village surname was PLAVNISKY, but if so,
                  you appear to be on the right track with regard to PLAVNICA. A surname
                  ending
                  with the -SKY suffix denotes in the simplest terms "OF __________."
                  Sometimes, when looking back on records with our 21st century eyes, things
                  may
                  sometimes appear confusing. In my research, I have found that there is a
                  reason
                  behind the alternative surname or an alias surname, and that the reason
                  sometimes only becomes apparent when searching back through the records. In
                  the case
                  of the village surname, the simplest answer appears to be that each of the
                  families lived in that village for a period of time. It would make perfect
                  sense to other people living in the new village, as everyone would know that

                  the family originally came from "X village." (This would be particularly
                  helpful if the original surname was a common surname in the new village,
                  since the
                  village surname would immediately draw a distinction and avoid confusing the

                  separate family clans in the new village).. The village surname would also
                  serve as a reminder to members of the next generation of the family that
                  have
                  kindred in "X village." I hope this helps a little. I believe you are on the

                  right track.

                  Best regards,

                  David

                  ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
                  at
                  http://discover. <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>
                  aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • konekta@nm.psg.sk
                  It s Plavnicky, not Plavnisky. Vladimir _____ From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of david1law@aol.com Sent:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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                    It's Plavnicky, not Plavnisky.
                    Vladimir

                    _____

                    From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of david1law@...
                    Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 8:09 PM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Village Surname



                    Hi Michael:

                    I hope that I understand your most recent message regarding a "village
                    surname" and that three unrelated families adopted the same "village
                    surname." I
                    am not sure if you mean that the village surname was PLAVNISKY, but if so,
                    you appear to be on the right track with regard to PLAVNICA. A surname
                    ending
                    with the -SKY suffix denotes in the simplest terms "OF __________."
                    Sometimes, when looking back on records with our 21st century eyes, things
                    may
                    sometimes appear confusing. In my research, I have found that there is a
                    reason
                    behind the alternative surname or an alias surname, and that the reason
                    sometimes only becomes apparent when searching back through the records. In
                    the case
                    of the village surname, the simplest answer appears to be that each of the
                    families lived in that village for a period of time. It would make perfect
                    sense to other people living in the new village, as everyone would know that

                    the family originally came from "X village." (This would be particularly
                    helpful if the original surname was a common surname in the new village,
                    since the
                    village surname would immediately draw a distinction and avoid confusing the

                    separate family clans in the new village).. The village surname would also
                    serve as a reminder to members of the next generation of the family that
                    have
                    kindred in "X village." I hope this helps a little. I believe you are on the

                    right track.

                    Best regards,

                    David

                    ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
                    at
                    http://discover. <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>
                    aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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                  • Michael Mojher
                    Vladimir Bohinc on his webpage says wrote: What is an Alias? Alias or aka or nickname appears sometimes with individuals, mostly male, in church records and
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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                      Vladimir Bohinc on his webpage says wrote:

                      "What is an Alias?

                      Alias or aka or nickname appears sometimes with individuals, mostly male, in church records and other documents.

                      The main reason for someone to have an alias appears to be the need of community to tell apart several families with the same surname. Alias was always given to a person or family by the community there were living in. However, there are also instances, where someone was alone with his surname, but still had an alias. He probably brought it from another place when he married into a new community or was it given to him for some other reasons. Very often it is not possible to explain the meaning of an alias. "

                      On my trip to Slovak in 2005 I discovered that in my paternal ancestral village of Hromos and Plavnica they used "Do" names, do being Slovak for of. The Do name worked similarly to an alias, but in this case the Do name was given to a genealogical branch of the surname. I was told that the Mojchers of Hromos had three Do names; Adama, Palody and Zid. The purpose of the Do name was to delineate people of the same surname who shared the same given name. The Do name was used instead of the surname when referring to the individual. In my case if there were two Michael Mojhers in Hromos I would be call Michael Adama. On my last trip in June I was going through some 1800's legal documents. On them the Do name was used. At the time of the document their were two Jozef Mojchers, an Adama and a Zid.

                      In Plavnica my Rindos family had five Do names. I asked my translator if any of the names had English translations. She was very reluctant to give me one of them. Finally, she told me it translated to "C*****s***". It appears the Slovaks have a sense of humor when giving out Do names.

                      I have not found the Do names used in the church or civil records for births, marriages or deaths. The Do names as far as I have determined is an oral tradition and has never been written down. Since it is based on genealogical lines it has proved to be very useful in my research. I can now, upon meeting a Mojcher, ask for their Do and know instantly which branch of the family they are related to.

                      The Do names are a more sensible system than the use of an alias or the taking on of a village name.

                      Michael Mojher

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Janet Kozlay
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:11 AM
                      Subject: RE: [S-R] Village Surname


                      Michael, I am not sure that the following applies to what you are speaking
                      of, but some people did use different surnames. You see this in the church
                      records with "alias" in Latin records and "másként" in Hungarian ones. But
                      aliases were not always indicated.

                      My husband's great grandfather, and his father before him, went by both
                      János Kecskés and János Kozik, depending on where he lived, this in the
                      first half of the 19th century. Ethnographers have noted that a man might be
                      known by one surname in his home village and a different one in the
                      neighboring village. He then took yet a third name some time before joining
                      the army in 1849. Such name changes were not at all uncommon in the 19th
                      century. Obviously this makes genealogical research exceedingly difficult. I
                      discovered one of the name changes only by chance by noting that his mother
                      seemed to be married to men with two different names.

                      Janet

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • treimer@nycap.rr.com
                      Dear fellow list members, On Saturday October 20, 2007, the Carpathian German Landsmannschaft of North America will hold its annual convention in Danbury,
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 4, 2007
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                        Dear fellow list members,

                        On Saturday October 20, 2007, the Carpathian German Landsmannschaft of
                        North America will hold its annual convention in Danbury, Connecticut,
                        at the Holiday Inn, 80 Newton Road, Danbury, CT 06810. For
                        directions, see
                        http://www.danburyhi.com/

                        The social part will begin around 5pm and go till 10-11 pm. We have a
                        common dinner, raffle, dancing, a little exhibit on our ancestral
                        area, and socializing. We are a group of people born/descended, from
                        Germans living in the old Upper Hungary, today’s Slovakia, mainly from
                        the Zips, but also from the Hauerland and Pressburg/Danube Valley.
                        Many of us are also into genealogy, and we’ll have a discussion table
                        for that. The cost of the dinner is $40.

                        If interested, contact for more information and registration forms
                        Herb Zaborsky at herbzaborsky@... or myself (Thomas Reimer) at
                        treimer@...

                        Thomas
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