Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [S-R] 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census and Successor Archives

Expand Messages
  • Margo Smith
    Thank you for your kind words, Paul. My aunt was 89 yrs. old. The funeral was certainly the last time that my 5 cousins and I will all be together, and
    Message 1 of 62 , Jul 30 7:31 AM
      Thank you for your kind words, Paul. My aunt was 89 yrs. old. The funeral was certainly the last time that my 5 cousins and I will all be together, and probably the last time I will ever see some of them. We lined up all the cameras in the church courtyard, and a friend of the youngest cousin took group photos.

      You don't say when your folks emigrated from Saris county. The tenant farmers, inquilini in the 1715 tax list, had few resources, perhaps a house but no land. Check the 1828 tax list, available on microfilm at the Family History Centers, for the name of the feudal landlord for your village.

      My guess is that there are documents out there which might provide insight on the relationship between this specific landlord and your village, but they will not be written in English. Karol Rebro's book, Urbarska regulacia Marie Terezie a poddanske upravy Josefa II na slovensku pp. 316-318, describes a fascinating case in which the villagers of Slovany and Leziachov and a few other villages filed a complaint in 1762 with the Turoc county administrators against their feudal lord, the Jesuit Father Superior, for numerous alleged oppressions like having to pay higher prices for various things, having their robota requirement increased, etc. The villagers won their case, but nothing changed. At least until 1773, when the Jesuits were expelled by Maria Teresia. So documents exist, but the challenge for me is to be able to read them. (Right now, I have sent off for translation from Latin to English just 1 of the urbarial documents which sets forth the duties of the serfs
      in 1 village -- 5 pp.)

      Margo

      Paul Tomasko <PaulE4Sure@...> wrote:

      Margo

      Sorry about the death in your family.

      Thank you again for your reply. I attempted a few time to read "A History
      of Slovakia - The Struggle for Survival" by Stanislav J. Kirschbaum. I find
      it really heard to follow, but that is where I first discovered that most of
      Slovakia consisted of peasants. Then doing my own family research in church
      records some of the actually have what the father or the husband did for a
      occupation which I found that my family were that of tennant farmers. So I
      think it would be interesting to find out who this land baron was, and
      determine if he was oppressive or strict, which could be the reason why my
      family such as many, many others are here in the United States. Siba, Saris
      County is a very small village on 500 some people today. As of right now I
      am guessing that only one baron owned the entire village, but who knows what
      I will find tomorrow.

      This have really enjoyed this conversation

      Paul Tomasko

      >From: Margo Smith <margolane61@...>
      >Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [S-R] 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census and Successor Archives
      >Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:47:24 -0700 (PDT)
      >
      >Paul, you win the prize. Yes, there was essentially 1 or 2 people/families
      >who owned the land and the village. If you were from the Revay family,
      >their members owned a bunch of villages in the Turiec Valley. Several
      >members of the Beniczky family owned the villages in the area of Benice and
      >Pribovce. The Jesuits had been granted several villages including Slovany,
      >Leziachov, and the town of Klastor, plus a few others. (The 1720 tax list
      >includes the name of the feudal lord, as do the 1770s urbarium and the 1828
      >tax list.)
      >
      > The serfs were supposed to pay the 9th (the second 10% of the harvest
      >each year) to the feudal lord. They also had to perform robota, required
      >uncompensated labor for the feudal lord for a certain number of days per
      >year. The number of days varied by location.
      >
      > See also: Richard Marsina and Michal Kusik: Urbare Feudalnych Pastiev
      >na Slovensku, 2 vol. Bratislava: Slovenskej Akademie Vied, 1959 The
      >records for the different counties varies. Some counties include for the
      >1500s the landowners only, others also include serfs.
      >
      > Also: Elena Mannova, ed. A Concise History of Slovakia. Bratislava:
      >Historicky ustav SAV, 2000
      >
      > Also: Julius Bartl, et. al. Slovak History, Chronology and Lexicon.
      >Wauconda: Bolchazy Carducci.
      >
      > You aren't bothering me. I'm just delighted that someone else is
      >interested in how the feudal system worked.
      >
      > Margo
      >Paul Tomasko <PaulE4Sure@...> wrote:
      >
      >Margo
      >
      >Thank you for your reply and that leads me to one more question then I will
      >leave you alone. In your research does it seem like there are many or just
      >one or two people who owned all the land for a small village? My family
      >comes from Siba, Saris County, it is a small village and I just always kind
      >of figured that one guy owned the whole village and basically the people in
      >it also. Can you learn how much a peasant had to pay monthly/yearly to the
      >individual who actually owned the land?
      >
      >Thanks Again
      >
      >Paul
      >
      > >From: Margo Smith <margolane61@...>
      > >Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: Re: [S-R] 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census and Successor Archives
      > >Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:59:49 -0700 (PDT)
      > >
      > >Hi, Paul!
      > >
      > > Yes, the 1715 and 1720 tax lists are both available on microfilm from
      > >LDS. Az 1715 es 1720 evi orszagos osszeirasok. For my county they are
      > >reels 1506126 and 1529565. The 1715 tax list is also on line at the
      > >Hungarian archives web site which has been discussed a lot this month.
      > >"All" is a loaded word, but the lists exist for many many many villages.
      > >Serfs only because they were the ones who paid the taxes. (Actually, I
      >did
      > >find a couple of lower level local gentry on the list for one village.) I
      > >am finishing up an article for publication concerning this tax list.
      >Watch
      > >for it! I have found these tax lists very helpful for understanding what
      > >the village folk were doing.
      > >
      > > Margo
      > >
      > >Paul Tomasko <PaulE4Sure@...> wrote:
      > > Hello
      > >
      > >I do not have my family back that far, but where do you find this
      >records,
      > >LDS? and are they for all villages or counties? Do they cover land owners
      > >and peasants? This seems like it may be a very good source for me down
      >the
      > >road here.
      > >
      > >Thank you for your time
      > >
      > >Paul Tomasko
      > >
      > > >From: Margo Smith <margolane61@...>
      > > >Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > >Subject: Re: [S-R] 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census and Successor
      >Archives
      > > >Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
      > > >
      > > >Joyce, I have worked extensively with this "census." What county are
      >you
      > > >looking at? The column headings are somewhat different for Turocz
      >County.
      > > >This is more of a tax list than a census.
      > > > Margo
      > > >
      > > >bhewlett@... wrote:
      > > > The 1715 census is written in Latin. The first column is "first
      > > >and last name of person". 2nd column is the column for occupation. On
      >my
      > > >5th ggrandfathers page it had "cloggers, shoemakers and tanners". I
      >only
      > > >looked at a couple other pages, but saw different occupations listed.
      >3rd
      > > >column is amount of land owned. 3 'holds" for example, would be around
      >3
      > > >acres (so I was told). 4th column relates to "land that was usually
      >"won"
      > > >by cutting trees and cultivating, usually on a hill." You did the work,
      > >you
      > > >got the land I guess. The 5th column asks how many fields are plowed
      >but
      > > >not seeded. The last column relates to how much of the property is a
      > > >vineyard.
      > > >
      > > >Although this was written in Latin, which should make it fairly easy to
      > > >translate, it turned out to be difficult. A kind man in France, worked
      >on
      > > >it stating that some of the words seem to be abbreviations and that's
      > >where
      > > >he had problems. Nevertheless, I think this is a good indication of the
      > > >column headings.
      > > >Joyce
      > > >
      > > > >From: jump4toys@...
      > > > >Date: 2007/07/04 Wed AM 05:52:22 CDT
      > > > >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >Subject: Re: [S-R] 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census and Successor
      > >Archives
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >I see this is in Hungarian...how do others read this if it's in
      > > >Hungarian?
      > > > >
      > > > >DAniel
      > > > >
      > > > >Dear Daniel,
      > > > >
      > > > >You can find 1715 online here:
      > > > >_http://www.arcanum.http://_ (http://www.arcanum.hu/mol/)
      > > > >
      > > > >************************************** See what's free at
      > > >http://www.aol.com
      > > > >
      > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >---------------------------------
      > > >Got a little couch potato?
      > > >Check out fun summer activities for kids.
      > > >
      > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >---------------------------------
      > >Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of
      > >spyware protection.
      > >
      > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >---------------------------------
      >Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who
      >knows.
      >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >






      ---------------------------------
      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
      Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • konekta@nm.psg.sk
      You have to be careulf with readin place names. In marriage records, if there are two place names, the first is place of origin and the second is place of
      Message 62 of 62 , Jul 31 6:40 AM
        You have to be careulf with readin place names.
        In marriage records, if there are two place names, the first is place of
        origin and the second is place of current residence.
        Since there is no place like Zboro Lofalu ( Lo falu does not exist anyway)
        it is likely, that Zborov was place of birth and Maybe Uj falu was place of
        residence.
        Did this pertain to the broom?
        If this record is from Bardejov, then it was Bardejovska Nova Ves , but the
        broom was born in Zborov.
        Vladimir



        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of johnqadam
        Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:11 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [S-R] Re: Village Location



        >>> I cannot find the village or town of Zboro' Lo'falu. I find this
        is a marriage record from the Rychvald R.C. church register from the
        year 1894. <<<

        Using Bogardi and some guesswork, I am led to believe that the 1910 map
        shows it as Bartfa ujfalu. That would make it Bardejovska Nova Ves on
        the current map. That is compatible with your reference to Rychvald =
        Bardejov.






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.