Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census and Successor Archives

Expand Messages
  • Bill Tarkulich
    Dear Daniel, You can find 1715 online here: http://www.arcanum.hu/mol/ I ve written a brief piece on it here:
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 4, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Daniel,

      You can find 1715 online here:
      http://www.arcanum.hu/mol/

      I've written a brief piece on it here:
      http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/CensusMain.htm#1715Census

      I would think any tax records would be in the Hungary archives. That would
      require substantial digging in Hungary resources, beyond the traditional
      scope of this forum's knowledge base. Finding the tax census in and of
      itself is a major data point for you.

      A little history first. The Empire of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary,
      while they came together as a "dual monarchy" for a time, still maintained
      separate internal administration. This is important in locating archive
      information. Hungary and Austria continued to keep their own tax,
      conscription, property, etc. records. The "dual monarchy" was essentially
      an external-facing organization. That is, when viewed from other countries,
      there was one army, one leader, one diplomat, etc.) The dual monarchy never
      functioned very well.

      South Poland records from feudal times are probably still extant in Austria.
      The south of today's Poland was Austrian Empire crown land of Galicia,
      before 1918 of course. I would start with the Austria archives, probably
      in Vienna.

      For the very north of Poland, I believe that was Prussia, but that is going
      way beyond my scope of knowledge. In any case, it's a fair statement to say
      that not all archaic records moved to successor countries.

      Bill


      -----Original Message-----
      From: jump4toys@... [mailto:jump4toys@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 3:11 AM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: [S-R Name Changes


      Dear David and Bill,

      thanks for your great information. I have a few questions.

      That census in 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census...where can you view the
      names
      in that Census?

      Also....I heard a story that my family who are from Svalyava (carpathian
      Mountains area) acquired their land after 1865, which I was told was after
      the
      Astria/Hungarians took over the area. I heard the land was given out to
      people who were willing to work and build on the land, like sharecroppers.
      So if my family indeed received the land in 1865, where would I see the
      records of this acquiring of the land?
      Or where would I see any tax records after 1865 on the land.

      As for names...while my family name is Wachtenheim, I did find that there
      is
      a Vachtenheim also with a "v" which I know was from the alternate spelling
      of
      the name. All the Wachtenheims I found so far come from a small clustering

      of villages. I don't understand why I keep finding them in the Carpathian
      mountain area, and it seems they might have come from north in Poland, but I

      can't find any records in Poland? Any reason why not?

      I think that if names were indeed given out to even the peasants...there
      would have been a reason for that. So there must have been a record in
      land,
      marriage, birth?

      Thanks!
      DAniel




      Hi Daniel:

      You raise a very fascinating and very intriguing inquiry regarding the
      etymology of surnames. There are some suffixes -- such as the -SKI suffix
      in
      Polish and the -SKY suffix in Slovak that indicate a place of origin and
      literally mean "OF _________" or "from the land of ___________" such as
      KRAKOWKSI
      which literally means "OF KRAKOW" or DOBSINSKY which literally means "OF
      DOBSINA." In Hungarian, the -I suffix (sometimes -Y) also means "of" or
      "from."
      These are clear examples of surnames indicating a place of origin. Some
      other
      suffixes (particularly some diminutives and possessives) are less clear and

      may possibly indicate a place of origin. For example, the -OV suffix in
      TOMASOV literally means "belonging to Tomas (the Slovak equivalent of
      Thomas)" and
      has several potential meanings -- the person had an ancestor named TOMAS,
      the person originated from a place named TOMASOV such as SPISSKE TOMASOV,
      etc.
      My paternal grandparents surnames BALOGA and HRONEC are both indicative of

      places of origin, BALOGA literally meaning "of Balog" and ultimately
      leading
      back to the BALOG river region in Gemer, and HRONEC essentially meaning
      "man/person of HRON" and referring to the HRON river in central Slovakia to

      the
      west and north of Gemer.

      I generally agree with Bill's comments about the origin of surnames. Some
      surnames were indicative of an occupation, some surnames were indicative of

      a
      personal characteristic, some surnames were indicative of an ancestor's
      personal name, and a number of surnames are indicative of an ancestor's
      place of
      origin, etc. Other surnames are indicative of an ethnicity (TOTH meaning
      "Slavic" in Hungarian, NEMEC meaning "German" in Slovak, TUREK meaning
      'Turk" in
      Slovak, SWEDA meaning "Swedish" in Slovak). As Bill correctly points out,
      there can be a number of alternative spellings to a surname because people
      would often spell them phonetically as they heard the name pronounced. In
      tracking my main surname BALOGA (BALOG/BALOGH) in my own family, I've been
      able to
      confirm through the church records over a dozen variants in spellings where

      the alternative spelling was confirmed by other evidence in the records --
      same wife's name, same house number, etc. In researching surnames, I have
      found
      that over time certain folk etymologies often take the place of a surname's

      true etymology. In other words, if something gets repeated often enough, it

      often takes an a hollow ring of truth.

      While I generally agree with Bill's excellent observations, there is one
      comment that Bill made about peasants not being "important enough to worry
      about
      tracking" that needs further clarification. I believe that the lack of
      records is more likely the result of a lack of written literacy among all
      social
      classes, and not indicative of any opinion of any social class as I have
      found
      over several years of research that even the records of the nobles are
      haphazard at best. The reason for this is that apart from the Roman
      Catholic
      church records of births, deaths, and marriages which were only uniformly
      documented after the decree from the Council of Trent in 1543, the
      overwhelming
      majority of old records in the archives are either property records, tax
      records,
      or court records over property disputes, particularly the latter (and these

      documents were written mostly in Latin as it was the official language of
      correspondence until the late 1700's). Very few historical documents were
      commemorations in and of themselves. Most commemorations occurred with the
      context of records relating to a dispute over property, where a reference
      may be
      made to a person's past valor in battle, etc. As Bill insightfully points
      outs, the genealogy of a person was generally only given in property
      disputes to
      prove title to real property, and in many of these cases, it was often
      family
      disputes between different branches of a larger family clan.

      The surname WACHTENHEIM is comprised of two elements -- WACHTEN generally
      meaning "guard" or "watchman" and "HEIM" meaning "home." If you do some
      further research, even on GOOGLE, you may find some very interesting
      aspects/twists
      on the name and/or meaning of the name. Generally, most of the German words

      used in the territory of Slovakia were derived from Old High German (the
      German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains before 1050 A.D.) and Middle

      High
      German (the German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains between 1050
      A.D.
      and 1350 AD). Since the 11th century, Saxons immigrated to the territory of

      Slovakia, particularly to the Gemer region and subsequently to the Spis
      region. There was a particularly large concentration of German people in
      the
      Spis
      region (similar to Transylvania which was also settled by Saxons), and the
      SAKSA surname meaning "Saxon" is found in the Spis region, as I discovered
      the
      same among the surnames of godparents in my family.

      In terms of researching any part of the territory which was formerly part
      of
      the kingdom of Hungarian, the best source for older records (apart from
      birth, death, marriage, and military) would probably be ARCANUM (literally
      "the
      archives") which can be accessed through Bill Tarkulich's excellent website

      at
      _www.iabsi.com_ (_http://www.iabsi.htt_ (http://www.iabsi.com/) ) .
      Sometimes, you find something in
      the archives about a particular surname, especially in the 1715 Hungarian
      Urbarial Census. In many instances, I have found that certain surnames
      appearing
      in a village in the 19th century also existed in the same or nearby village

      in the 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census. I wish you well in your research
      endeavors.

      Best regards,

      David









      ************************************** See what's free at
      http://www.aol.com.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
      SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Bill Tarkulich
      Remember, the 1715 census was a TAX census. Only property holders (not their families) were enumerated. The first modern census, when they counted everyone
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 4, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Remember, the 1715 census was a TAX census. Only property holders (not
        their families) were enumerated. The first "modern" census, when they
        counted everyone did not occur until 1869.


        Bill


        -----Original Message-----
        From: jump4toys@... [mailto:jump4toys@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 3:11 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: [S-R Name Changes


        Dear David and Bill,

        thanks for your great information. I have a few questions.

        That census in 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census...where can you view the
        names
        in that Census?

        Also....I heard a story that my family who are from Svalyava (carpathian
        Mountains area) acquired their land after 1865, which I was told was after
        the
        Astria/Hungarians took over the area. I heard the land was given out to
        people who were willing to work and build on the land, like sharecroppers.
        So if my family indeed received the land in 1865, where would I see the
        records of this acquiring of the land?
        Or where would I see any tax records after 1865 on the land.

        As for names...while my family name is Wachtenheim, I did find that there
        is
        a Vachtenheim also with a "v" which I know was from the alternate spelling
        of
        the name. All the Wachtenheims I found so far come from a small clustering

        of villages. I don't understand why I keep finding them in the Carpathian
        mountain area, and it seems they might have come from north in Poland, but I

        can't find any records in Poland? Any reason why not?

        I think that if names were indeed given out to even the peasants...there
        would have been a reason for that. So there must have been a record in
        land,
        marriage, birth?

        Thanks!
        DAniel




        Hi Daniel:

        You raise a very fascinating and very intriguing inquiry regarding the
        etymology of surnames. There are some suffixes -- such as the -SKI suffix
        in
        Polish and the -SKY suffix in Slovak that indicate a place of origin and
        literally mean "OF _________" or "from the land of ___________" such as
        KRAKOWKSI
        which literally means "OF KRAKOW" or DOBSINSKY which literally means "OF
        DOBSINA." In Hungarian, the -I suffix (sometimes -Y) also means "of" or
        "from."
        These are clear examples of surnames indicating a place of origin. Some
        other
        suffixes (particularly some diminutives and possessives) are less clear and

        may possibly indicate a place of origin. For example, the -OV suffix in
        TOMASOV literally means "belonging to Tomas (the Slovak equivalent of
        Thomas)" and
        has several potential meanings -- the person had an ancestor named TOMAS,
        the person originated from a place named TOMASOV such as SPISSKE TOMASOV,
        etc.
        My paternal grandparents surnames BALOGA and HRONEC are both indicative of

        places of origin, BALOGA literally meaning "of Balog" and ultimately
        leading
        back to the BALOG river region in Gemer, and HRONEC essentially meaning
        "man/person of HRON" and referring to the HRON river in central Slovakia to

        the
        west and north of Gemer.

        I generally agree with Bill's comments about the origin of surnames. Some
        surnames were indicative of an occupation, some surnames were indicative of

        a
        personal characteristic, some surnames were indicative of an ancestor's
        personal name, and a number of surnames are indicative of an ancestor's
        place of
        origin, etc. Other surnames are indicative of an ethnicity (TOTH meaning
        "Slavic" in Hungarian, NEMEC meaning "German" in Slovak, TUREK meaning
        'Turk" in
        Slovak, SWEDA meaning "Swedish" in Slovak). As Bill correctly points out,
        there can be a number of alternative spellings to a surname because people
        would often spell them phonetically as they heard the name pronounced. In
        tracking my main surname BALOGA (BALOG/BALOGH) in my own family, I've been
        able to
        confirm through the church records over a dozen variants in spellings where

        the alternative spelling was confirmed by other evidence in the records --
        same wife's name, same house number, etc. In researching surnames, I have
        found
        that over time certain folk etymologies often take the place of a surname's

        true etymology. In other words, if something gets repeated often enough, it

        often takes an a hollow ring of truth.

        While I generally agree with Bill's excellent observations, there is one
        comment that Bill made about peasants not being "important enough to worry
        about
        tracking" that needs further clarification. I believe that the lack of
        records is more likely the result of a lack of written literacy among all
        social
        classes, and not indicative of any opinion of any social class as I have
        found
        over several years of research that even the records of the nobles are
        haphazard at best. The reason for this is that apart from the Roman
        Catholic
        church records of births, deaths, and marriages which were only uniformly
        documented after the decree from the Council of Trent in 1543, the
        overwhelming
        majority of old records in the archives are either property records, tax
        records,
        or court records over property disputes, particularly the latter (and these

        documents were written mostly in Latin as it was the official language of
        correspondence until the late 1700's). Very few historical documents were
        commemorations in and of themselves. Most commemorations occurred with the
        context of records relating to a dispute over property, where a reference
        may be
        made to a person's past valor in battle, etc. As Bill insightfully points
        outs, the genealogy of a person was generally only given in property
        disputes to
        prove title to real property, and in many of these cases, it was often
        family
        disputes between different branches of a larger family clan.

        The surname WACHTENHEIM is comprised of two elements -- WACHTEN generally
        meaning "guard" or "watchman" and "HEIM" meaning "home." If you do some
        further research, even on GOOGLE, you may find some very interesting
        aspects/twists
        on the name and/or meaning of the name. Generally, most of the German words

        used in the territory of Slovakia were derived from Old High German (the
        German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains before 1050 A.D.) and Middle

        High
        German (the German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains between 1050
        A.D.
        and 1350 AD). Since the 11th century, Saxons immigrated to the territory of

        Slovakia, particularly to the Gemer region and subsequently to the Spis
        region. There was a particularly large concentration of German people in
        the
        Spis
        region (similar to Transylvania which was also settled by Saxons), and the
        SAKSA surname meaning "Saxon" is found in the Spis region, as I discovered
        the
        same among the surnames of godparents in my family.

        In terms of researching any part of the territory which was formerly part
        of
        the kingdom of Hungarian, the best source for older records (apart from
        birth, death, marriage, and military) would probably be ARCANUM (literally
        "the
        archives") which can be accessed through Bill Tarkulich's excellent website

        at
        _www.iabsi.com_ (_http://www.iabsi.htt_ (http://www.iabsi.com/) ) .
        Sometimes, you find something in
        the archives about a particular surname, especially in the 1715 Hungarian
        Urbarial Census. In many instances, I have found that certain surnames
        appearing
        in a village in the 19th century also existed in the same or nearby village

        in the 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census. I wish you well in your research
        endeavors.

        Best regards,

        David









        ************************************** See what's free at
        http://www.aol.com.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • jump4toys@aol.com
        Where can I access the 1869 census? Is it listed by name? Alphabetical order? DAniel Remember, the 1715 census was a TAX census. Only property holders (not
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 4, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Where can I access the 1869 census?
          Is it listed by name? Alphabetical order?

          DAniel




          Remember, the 1715 census was a TAX census. Only property holders (not
          their families) were enumerated. The first "modern" census, when they
          counted everyone did not occur until 1869.

          Bill









          ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.