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Re: [S-R Name Changes

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  • jump4toys@aol.com
    Question..... We all know that last names were given out to families in Europe maybe 200 or 300 years ago? Before that I understand that someone would be
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 3, 2007
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      Question.....

      We all know that last names were given out to families in Europe maybe 200
      or 300 years ago? Before that I understand that someone would be called
      DAniel son of George. or Daniel from Minsk.

      So are there any documents which show when actual last names were assigned
      to families? I'm sure there must have been records when a village or a
      family were given a last name?

      I find that my family name, Wachtenheim, seems to be all located in the
      Carpathian Mountain area, just south of Poland, in Hungary/Czech/now the Ukraine.
      So since all the Wachtenheims come from the same area.....how did all these
      people get the same name? WAsn't there a record somewhere to show how the
      name was given or to whom it was given?

      And do you know what years that last names were given out to families in the
      Carpathian Mountain area?

      Daniel




      ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim
      “(Our genealogical paper trails usually extend a few hundred years, with a fortunate minority having paper trails reaching back 400 years or so. And, there
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 3, 2007
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        �(Our genealogical paper trails usually extend a few hundred years, with a
        fortunate minority having paper trails reaching back 400 years or so. And,
        there a very few who have paper trails reaching back as much as 1000 years
        or more.) As surnames emerged into general usage around 1100 to 1200 A.D.
        (and later),��



        http://www.worldfamilies.net/ydna.html



        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of jump4toys@...
        Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 3:39 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [S-R] Re: [S-R Name Changes



        Question....-.

        We all know that last names were given out to families in Europe maybe 200
        or 300 years ago? Before that I understand that someone would be called
        DAniel son of George. or Daniel from Minsk.

        So are there any documents which show when actual last names were assigned
        to families? I'm sure there must have been records when a village or a
        family were given a last name?

        I find that my family name, Wachtenheim, seems to be all located in the
        Carpathian Mountain area, just south of Poland, in Hungary/Czech/-now the
        Ukraine.
        So since all the Wachtenheims come from the same area.....how did all these
        people get the same name? WAsn't there a record somewhere to show how the
        name was given or to whom it was given?

        And do you know what years that last names were given out to families in the

        Carpathian Mountain area?

        Daniel


        ************-*********-*********-******** See what's free at HYPERLINK
        "http://www.aol.com."http://www.aol.-com.

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      • Bill Tarkulich
        Unless your family were noblemen, it s highly unlikely your surname has any written history. The vast majority of population were peasants in this region and
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 3, 2007
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          Unless your family were noblemen, it's highly unlikely your surname has
          any written history.

          The vast majority of population were peasants in this region and the
          adoption of surnames didn't take hold until the 15th century and
          record-keeping in Hungary wasn't mandated until the late 1600's.

          I've never heard of a "name assignments" document. It's doubtful one ever
          existed. You must recall that today's era of "positive identification"
          with photo ID's and Social security numbers (USA-speaking) is a relatively
          new invention, as late as the last 70 years. Most people went their whole
          lives without any form of identity papers. and of course they couldn't
          read or write anyways.

          Secondly, our peasants were of such impoverished social class that they
          were never adjudged important enough to worry about tracking. Unless of
          course they owned taxable property then they were listed in the property
          census.

          Thirdly, excepting noblemen (who needed to prove property ownership)
          genealogy was never and accepted practice.

          I don't believe names were ever "given out". Names happened for a hundred
          different reasons, all lost to time. Names transformed over time also.
          For a long time, they were word-of-mouth. So how do you spell it? Who
          knows? We never had to!

          Bill


          On Tue, July 3, 2007 3:39 pm, jump4toys@... wrote:
          > Question.....
          >
          > We all know that last names were given out to families in Europe maybe 200
          > or 300 years ago? Before that I understand that someone would be called
          > DAniel son of George. or Daniel from Minsk.
          >
          > So are there any documents which show when actual last names were assigned
          > to families? I'm sure there must have been records when a village or a
          > family were given a last name?
          >
          > I find that my family name, Wachtenheim, seems to be all located in the
          > Carpathian Mountain area, just south of Poland, in Hungary/Czech/now the
          > Ukraine.
          > So since all the Wachtenheims come from the same area.....how did all
          > these
          > people get the same name? WAsn't there a record somewhere to show how
          > the
          > name was given or to whom it was given?
          >
          > And do you know what years that last names were given out to families in
          > the
          > Carpathian Mountain area?
          >
          > Daniel
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ************************************** See what's free at
          > http://www.aol.com
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
          Bill Tarkulich
          http://www.iabsi.com
        • david1law@aol.com
          Hi Daniel: You raise a very fascinating and very intriguing inquiry regarding the etymology of surnames. There are some suffixes -- such as the -SKI suffix
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 3, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Daniel:

            You raise a very fascinating and very intriguing inquiry regarding the
            etymology of surnames. There are some suffixes -- such as the -SKI suffix in
            Polish and the -SKY suffix in Slovak that indicate a place of origin and
            literally mean "OF _________" or "from the land of ___________" such as KRAKOWKSI
            which literally means "OF KRAKOW" or DOBSINSKY which literally means "OF
            DOBSINA." In Hungarian, the -I suffix (sometimes -Y) also means "of" or "from."
            These are clear examples of surnames indicating a place of origin. Some other
            suffixes (particularly some diminutives and possessives) are less clear and
            may possibly indicate a place of origin. For example, the -OV suffix in
            TOMASOV literally means "belonging to Tomas (the Slovak equivalent of Thomas)" and
            has several potential meanings -- the person had an ancestor named TOMAS,
            the person originated from a place named TOMASOV such as SPISSKE TOMASOV, etc.
            My paternal grandparents surnames BALOGA and HRONEC are both indicative of
            places of origin, BALOGA literally meaning "of Balog" and ultimately leading
            back to the BALOG river region in Gemer, and HRONEC essentially meaning
            "man/person of HRON" and referring to the HRON river in central Slovakia to the
            west and north of Gemer.

            I generally agree with Bill's comments about the origin of surnames. Some
            surnames were indicative of an occupation, some surnames were indicative of a
            personal characteristic, some surnames were indicative of an ancestor's
            personal name, and a number of surnames are indicative of an ancestor's place of
            origin, etc. Other surnames are indicative of an ethnicity (TOTH meaning
            "Slavic" in Hungarian, NEMEC meaning "German" in Slovak, TUREK meaning 'Turk" in
            Slovak, SWEDA meaning "Swedish" in Slovak). As Bill correctly points out,
            there can be a number of alternative spellings to a surname because people
            would often spell them phonetically as they heard the name pronounced. In
            tracking my main surname BALOGA (BALOG/BALOGH) in my own family, I've been able to
            confirm through the church records over a dozen variants in spellings where
            the alternative spelling was confirmed by other evidence in the records --
            same wife's name, same house number, etc. In researching surnames, I have found
            that over time certain folk etymologies often take the place of a surname's
            true etymology. In other words, if something gets repeated often enough, it
            often takes an a hollow ring of truth.

            While I generally agree with Bill's excellent observations, there is one
            comment that Bill made about peasants not being "important enough to worry about
            tracking" that needs further clarification. I believe that the lack of
            records is more likely the result of a lack of written literacy among all social
            classes, and not indicative of any opinion of any social class as I have found
            over several years of research that even the records of the nobles are
            haphazard at best. The reason for this is that apart from the Roman Catholic
            church records of births, deaths, and marriages which were only uniformly
            documented after the decree from the Council of Trent in 1543, the overwhelming
            majority of old records in the archives are either property records, tax records,
            or court records over property disputes, particularly the latter (and these
            documents were written mostly in Latin as it was the official language of
            correspondence until the late 1700's). Very few historical documents were
            commemorations in and of themselves. Most commemorations occurred with the
            context of records relating to a dispute over property, where a reference may be
            made to a person's past valor in battle, etc. As Bill insightfully points
            outs, the genealogy of a person was generally only given in property disputes to
            prove title to real property, and in many of these cases, it was often family
            disputes between different branches of a larger family clan.

            The surname WACHTENHEIM is comprised of two elements -- WACHTEN generally
            meaning "guard" or "watchman" and "HEIM" meaning "home." If you do some
            further research, even on GOOGLE, you may find some very interesting aspects/twists
            on the name and/or meaning of the name. Generally, most of the German words
            used in the territory of Slovakia were derived from Old High German (the
            German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains before 1050 A.D.) and Middle High
            German (the German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains between 1050 A.D.
            and 1350 AD). Since the 11th century, Saxons immigrated to the territory of
            Slovakia, particularly to the Gemer region and subsequently to the Spis
            region. There was a particularly large concentration of German people in the Spis
            region (similar to Transylvania which was also settled by Saxons), and the
            SAKSA surname meaning "Saxon" is found in the Spis region, as I discovered the
            same among the surnames of godparents in my family.

            In terms of researching any part of the territory which was formerly part of
            the kingdom of Hungarian, the best source for older records (apart from
            birth, death, marriage, and military) would probably be ARCANUM (literally "the
            archives") which can be accessed through Bill Tarkulich's excellent website at
            _www.iabsi.com_ (http://www.iabsi.com) . Sometimes, you find something in
            the archives about a particular surname, especially in the 1715 Hungarian
            Urbarial Census. In many instances, I have found that certain surnames appearing
            in a village in the 19th century also existed in the same or nearby village
            in the 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census. I wish you well in your research
            endeavors.

            Best regards,

            David



            ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jump4toys@aol.com
            Dear David and Bill, thanks for your great information. I have a few questions. That census in 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census...where can you view the names
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 4, 2007
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              Dear David and Bill,

              thanks for your great information. I have a few questions.

              That census in 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census...where can you view the names
              in that Census?

              Also....I heard a story that my family who are from Svalyava (carpathian
              Mountains area) acquired their land after 1865, which I was told was after the
              Astria/Hungarians took over the area. I heard the land was given out to
              people who were willing to work and build on the land, like sharecroppers.
              So if my family indeed received the land in 1865, where would I see the
              records of this acquiring of the land?
              Or where would I see any tax records after 1865 on the land.

              As for names...while my family name is Wachtenheim, I did find that there is
              a Vachtenheim also with a "v" which I know was from the alternate spelling of
              the name. All the Wachtenheims I found so far come from a small clustering
              of villages. I don't understand why I keep finding them in the Carpathian
              mountain area, and it seems they might have come from north in Poland, but I
              can't find any records in Poland? Any reason why not?

              I think that if names were indeed given out to even the peasants...there
              would have been a reason for that. So there must have been a record in land,
              marriage, birth?

              Thanks!
              DAniel




              Hi Daniel:

              You raise a very fascinating and very intriguing inquiry regarding the
              etymology of surnames. There are some suffixes -- such as the -SKI suffix in
              Polish and the -SKY suffix in Slovak that indicate a place of origin and
              literally mean "OF _________" or "from the land of ___________" such as
              KRAKOWKSI
              which literally means "OF KRAKOW" or DOBSINSKY which literally means "OF
              DOBSINA." In Hungarian, the -I suffix (sometimes -Y) also means "of" or
              "from."
              These are clear examples of surnames indicating a place of origin. Some
              other
              suffixes (particularly some diminutives and possessives) are less clear and
              may possibly indicate a place of origin. For example, the -OV suffix in
              TOMASOV literally means "belonging to Tomas (the Slovak equivalent of
              Thomas)" and
              has several potential meanings -- the person had an ancestor named TOMAS,
              the person originated from a place named TOMASOV such as SPISSKE TOMASOV,
              etc.
              My paternal grandparents surnames BALOGA and HRONEC are both indicative of
              places of origin, BALOGA literally meaning "of Balog" and ultimately leading
              back to the BALOG river region in Gemer, and HRONEC essentially meaning
              "man/person of HRON" and referring to the HRON river in central Slovakia to
              the
              west and north of Gemer.

              I generally agree with Bill's comments about the origin of surnames. Some
              surnames were indicative of an occupation, some surnames were indicative of
              a
              personal characteristic, some surnames were indicative of an ancestor's
              personal name, and a number of surnames are indicative of an ancestor's
              place of
              origin, etc. Other surnames are indicative of an ethnicity (TOTH meaning
              "Slavic" in Hungarian, NEMEC meaning "German" in Slovak, TUREK meaning
              'Turk" in
              Slovak, SWEDA meaning "Swedish" in Slovak). As Bill correctly points out,
              there can be a number of alternative spellings to a surname because people
              would often spell them phonetically as they heard the name pronounced. In
              tracking my main surname BALOGA (BALOG/BALOGH) in my own family, I've been
              able to
              confirm through the church records over a dozen variants in spellings where
              the alternative spelling was confirmed by other evidence in the records --
              same wife's name, same house number, etc. In researching surnames, I have
              found
              that over time certain folk etymologies often take the place of a surname's
              true etymology. In other words, if something gets repeated often enough, it
              often takes an a hollow ring of truth.

              While I generally agree with Bill's excellent observations, there is one
              comment that Bill made about peasants not being "important enough to worry
              about
              tracking" that needs further clarification. I believe that the lack of
              records is more likely the result of a lack of written literacy among all
              social
              classes, and not indicative of any opinion of any social class as I have
              found
              over several years of research that even the records of the nobles are
              haphazard at best. The reason for this is that apart from the Roman Catholic
              church records of births, deaths, and marriages which were only uniformly
              documented after the decree from the Council of Trent in 1543, the
              overwhelming
              majority of old records in the archives are either property records, tax
              records,
              or court records over property disputes, particularly the latter (and these
              documents were written mostly in Latin as it was the official language of
              correspondence until the late 1700's). Very few historical documents were
              commemorations in and of themselves. Most commemorations occurred with the
              context of records relating to a dispute over property, where a reference
              may be
              made to a person's past valor in battle, etc. As Bill insightfully points
              outs, the genealogy of a person was generally only given in property
              disputes to
              prove title to real property, and in many of these cases, it was often
              family
              disputes between different branches of a larger family clan.

              The surname WACHTENHEIM is comprised of two elements -- WACHTEN generally
              meaning "guard" or "watchman" and "HEIM" meaning "home." If you do some
              further research, even on GOOGLE, you may find some very interesting
              aspects/twists
              on the name and/or meaning of the name. Generally, most of the German words
              used in the territory of Slovakia were derived from Old High German (the
              German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains before 1050 A.D.) and Middle
              High
              German (the German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains between 1050 A.D.
              and 1350 AD). Since the 11th century, Saxons immigrated to the territory of
              Slovakia, particularly to the Gemer region and subsequently to the Spis
              region. There was a particularly large concentration of German people in the
              Spis
              region (similar to Transylvania which was also settled by Saxons), and the
              SAKSA surname meaning "Saxon" is found in the Spis region, as I discovered
              the
              same among the surnames of godparents in my family.

              In terms of researching any part of the territory which was formerly part of
              the kingdom of Hungarian, the best source for older records (apart from
              birth, death, marriage, and military) would probably be ARCANUM (literally
              "the
              archives") which can be accessed through Bill Tarkulich's excellent website
              at
              _www.iabsi.com_ (_http://www.iabsi.htt_ (http://www.iabsi.com/) ) .
              Sometimes, you find something in
              the archives about a particular surname, especially in the 1715 Hungarian
              Urbarial Census. In many instances, I have found that certain surnames
              appearing
              in a village in the 19th century also existed in the same or nearby village
              in the 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census. I wish you well in your research
              endeavors.

              Best regards,

              David









              ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bill Tarkulich
              Dear Daniel, You can find 1715 online here: http://www.arcanum.hu/mol/ I ve written a brief piece on it here:
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 4, 2007
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                Dear Daniel,

                You can find 1715 online here:
                http://www.arcanum.hu/mol/

                I've written a brief piece on it here:
                http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/CensusMain.htm#1715Census

                I would think any tax records would be in the Hungary archives. That would
                require substantial digging in Hungary resources, beyond the traditional
                scope of this forum's knowledge base. Finding the tax census in and of
                itself is a major data point for you.

                A little history first. The Empire of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary,
                while they came together as a "dual monarchy" for a time, still maintained
                separate internal administration. This is important in locating archive
                information. Hungary and Austria continued to keep their own tax,
                conscription, property, etc. records. The "dual monarchy" was essentially
                an external-facing organization. That is, when viewed from other countries,
                there was one army, one leader, one diplomat, etc.) The dual monarchy never
                functioned very well.

                South Poland records from feudal times are probably still extant in Austria.
                The south of today's Poland was Austrian Empire crown land of Galicia,
                before 1918 of course. I would start with the Austria archives, probably
                in Vienna.

                For the very north of Poland, I believe that was Prussia, but that is going
                way beyond my scope of knowledge. In any case, it's a fair statement to say
                that not all archaic records moved to successor countries.

                Bill


                -----Original Message-----
                From: jump4toys@... [mailto:jump4toys@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 3:11 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: [S-R Name Changes


                Dear David and Bill,

                thanks for your great information. I have a few questions.

                That census in 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census...where can you view the
                names
                in that Census?

                Also....I heard a story that my family who are from Svalyava (carpathian
                Mountains area) acquired their land after 1865, which I was told was after
                the
                Astria/Hungarians took over the area. I heard the land was given out to
                people who were willing to work and build on the land, like sharecroppers.
                So if my family indeed received the land in 1865, where would I see the
                records of this acquiring of the land?
                Or where would I see any tax records after 1865 on the land.

                As for names...while my family name is Wachtenheim, I did find that there
                is
                a Vachtenheim also with a "v" which I know was from the alternate spelling
                of
                the name. All the Wachtenheims I found so far come from a small clustering

                of villages. I don't understand why I keep finding them in the Carpathian
                mountain area, and it seems they might have come from north in Poland, but I

                can't find any records in Poland? Any reason why not?

                I think that if names were indeed given out to even the peasants...there
                would have been a reason for that. So there must have been a record in
                land,
                marriage, birth?

                Thanks!
                DAniel




                Hi Daniel:

                You raise a very fascinating and very intriguing inquiry regarding the
                etymology of surnames. There are some suffixes -- such as the -SKI suffix
                in
                Polish and the -SKY suffix in Slovak that indicate a place of origin and
                literally mean "OF _________" or "from the land of ___________" such as
                KRAKOWKSI
                which literally means "OF KRAKOW" or DOBSINSKY which literally means "OF
                DOBSINA." In Hungarian, the -I suffix (sometimes -Y) also means "of" or
                "from."
                These are clear examples of surnames indicating a place of origin. Some
                other
                suffixes (particularly some diminutives and possessives) are less clear and

                may possibly indicate a place of origin. For example, the -OV suffix in
                TOMASOV literally means "belonging to Tomas (the Slovak equivalent of
                Thomas)" and
                has several potential meanings -- the person had an ancestor named TOMAS,
                the person originated from a place named TOMASOV such as SPISSKE TOMASOV,
                etc.
                My paternal grandparents surnames BALOGA and HRONEC are both indicative of

                places of origin, BALOGA literally meaning "of Balog" and ultimately
                leading
                back to the BALOG river region in Gemer, and HRONEC essentially meaning
                "man/person of HRON" and referring to the HRON river in central Slovakia to

                the
                west and north of Gemer.

                I generally agree with Bill's comments about the origin of surnames. Some
                surnames were indicative of an occupation, some surnames were indicative of

                a
                personal characteristic, some surnames were indicative of an ancestor's
                personal name, and a number of surnames are indicative of an ancestor's
                place of
                origin, etc. Other surnames are indicative of an ethnicity (TOTH meaning
                "Slavic" in Hungarian, NEMEC meaning "German" in Slovak, TUREK meaning
                'Turk" in
                Slovak, SWEDA meaning "Swedish" in Slovak). As Bill correctly points out,
                there can be a number of alternative spellings to a surname because people
                would often spell them phonetically as they heard the name pronounced. In
                tracking my main surname BALOGA (BALOG/BALOGH) in my own family, I've been
                able to
                confirm through the church records over a dozen variants in spellings where

                the alternative spelling was confirmed by other evidence in the records --
                same wife's name, same house number, etc. In researching surnames, I have
                found
                that over time certain folk etymologies often take the place of a surname's

                true etymology. In other words, if something gets repeated often enough, it

                often takes an a hollow ring of truth.

                While I generally agree with Bill's excellent observations, there is one
                comment that Bill made about peasants not being "important enough to worry
                about
                tracking" that needs further clarification. I believe that the lack of
                records is more likely the result of a lack of written literacy among all
                social
                classes, and not indicative of any opinion of any social class as I have
                found
                over several years of research that even the records of the nobles are
                haphazard at best. The reason for this is that apart from the Roman
                Catholic
                church records of births, deaths, and marriages which were only uniformly
                documented after the decree from the Council of Trent in 1543, the
                overwhelming
                majority of old records in the archives are either property records, tax
                records,
                or court records over property disputes, particularly the latter (and these

                documents were written mostly in Latin as it was the official language of
                correspondence until the late 1700's). Very few historical documents were
                commemorations in and of themselves. Most commemorations occurred with the
                context of records relating to a dispute over property, where a reference
                may be
                made to a person's past valor in battle, etc. As Bill insightfully points
                outs, the genealogy of a person was generally only given in property
                disputes to
                prove title to real property, and in many of these cases, it was often
                family
                disputes between different branches of a larger family clan.

                The surname WACHTENHEIM is comprised of two elements -- WACHTEN generally
                meaning "guard" or "watchman" and "HEIM" meaning "home." If you do some
                further research, even on GOOGLE, you may find some very interesting
                aspects/twists
                on the name and/or meaning of the name. Generally, most of the German words

                used in the territory of Slovakia were derived from Old High German (the
                German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains before 1050 A.D.) and Middle

                High
                German (the German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains between 1050
                A.D.
                and 1350 AD). Since the 11th century, Saxons immigrated to the territory of

                Slovakia, particularly to the Gemer region and subsequently to the Spis
                region. There was a particularly large concentration of German people in
                the
                Spis
                region (similar to Transylvania which was also settled by Saxons), and the
                SAKSA surname meaning "Saxon" is found in the Spis region, as I discovered
                the
                same among the surnames of godparents in my family.

                In terms of researching any part of the territory which was formerly part
                of
                the kingdom of Hungarian, the best source for older records (apart from
                birth, death, marriage, and military) would probably be ARCANUM (literally
                "the
                archives") which can be accessed through Bill Tarkulich's excellent website

                at
                _www.iabsi.com_ (_http://www.iabsi.htt_ (http://www.iabsi.com/) ) .
                Sometimes, you find something in
                the archives about a particular surname, especially in the 1715 Hungarian
                Urbarial Census. In many instances, I have found that certain surnames
                appearing
                in a village in the 19th century also existed in the same or nearby village

                in the 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census. I wish you well in your research
                endeavors.

                Best regards,

                David









                ************************************** See what's free at
                http://www.aol.com.


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              • Bill Tarkulich
                Remember, the 1715 census was a TAX census. Only property holders (not their families) were enumerated. The first modern census, when they counted everyone
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 4, 2007
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                  Remember, the 1715 census was a TAX census. Only property holders (not
                  their families) were enumerated. The first "modern" census, when they
                  counted everyone did not occur until 1869.


                  Bill


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: jump4toys@... [mailto:jump4toys@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 3:11 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: [S-R Name Changes


                  Dear David and Bill,

                  thanks for your great information. I have a few questions.

                  That census in 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census...where can you view the
                  names
                  in that Census?

                  Also....I heard a story that my family who are from Svalyava (carpathian
                  Mountains area) acquired their land after 1865, which I was told was after
                  the
                  Astria/Hungarians took over the area. I heard the land was given out to
                  people who were willing to work and build on the land, like sharecroppers.
                  So if my family indeed received the land in 1865, where would I see the
                  records of this acquiring of the land?
                  Or where would I see any tax records after 1865 on the land.

                  As for names...while my family name is Wachtenheim, I did find that there
                  is
                  a Vachtenheim also with a "v" which I know was from the alternate spelling
                  of
                  the name. All the Wachtenheims I found so far come from a small clustering

                  of villages. I don't understand why I keep finding them in the Carpathian
                  mountain area, and it seems they might have come from north in Poland, but I

                  can't find any records in Poland? Any reason why not?

                  I think that if names were indeed given out to even the peasants...there
                  would have been a reason for that. So there must have been a record in
                  land,
                  marriage, birth?

                  Thanks!
                  DAniel




                  Hi Daniel:

                  You raise a very fascinating and very intriguing inquiry regarding the
                  etymology of surnames. There are some suffixes -- such as the -SKI suffix
                  in
                  Polish and the -SKY suffix in Slovak that indicate a place of origin and
                  literally mean "OF _________" or "from the land of ___________" such as
                  KRAKOWKSI
                  which literally means "OF KRAKOW" or DOBSINSKY which literally means "OF
                  DOBSINA." In Hungarian, the -I suffix (sometimes -Y) also means "of" or
                  "from."
                  These are clear examples of surnames indicating a place of origin. Some
                  other
                  suffixes (particularly some diminutives and possessives) are less clear and

                  may possibly indicate a place of origin. For example, the -OV suffix in
                  TOMASOV literally means "belonging to Tomas (the Slovak equivalent of
                  Thomas)" and
                  has several potential meanings -- the person had an ancestor named TOMAS,
                  the person originated from a place named TOMASOV such as SPISSKE TOMASOV,
                  etc.
                  My paternal grandparents surnames BALOGA and HRONEC are both indicative of

                  places of origin, BALOGA literally meaning "of Balog" and ultimately
                  leading
                  back to the BALOG river region in Gemer, and HRONEC essentially meaning
                  "man/person of HRON" and referring to the HRON river in central Slovakia to

                  the
                  west and north of Gemer.

                  I generally agree with Bill's comments about the origin of surnames. Some
                  surnames were indicative of an occupation, some surnames were indicative of

                  a
                  personal characteristic, some surnames were indicative of an ancestor's
                  personal name, and a number of surnames are indicative of an ancestor's
                  place of
                  origin, etc. Other surnames are indicative of an ethnicity (TOTH meaning
                  "Slavic" in Hungarian, NEMEC meaning "German" in Slovak, TUREK meaning
                  'Turk" in
                  Slovak, SWEDA meaning "Swedish" in Slovak). As Bill correctly points out,
                  there can be a number of alternative spellings to a surname because people
                  would often spell them phonetically as they heard the name pronounced. In
                  tracking my main surname BALOGA (BALOG/BALOGH) in my own family, I've been
                  able to
                  confirm through the church records over a dozen variants in spellings where

                  the alternative spelling was confirmed by other evidence in the records --
                  same wife's name, same house number, etc. In researching surnames, I have
                  found
                  that over time certain folk etymologies often take the place of a surname's

                  true etymology. In other words, if something gets repeated often enough, it

                  often takes an a hollow ring of truth.

                  While I generally agree with Bill's excellent observations, there is one
                  comment that Bill made about peasants not being "important enough to worry
                  about
                  tracking" that needs further clarification. I believe that the lack of
                  records is more likely the result of a lack of written literacy among all
                  social
                  classes, and not indicative of any opinion of any social class as I have
                  found
                  over several years of research that even the records of the nobles are
                  haphazard at best. The reason for this is that apart from the Roman
                  Catholic
                  church records of births, deaths, and marriages which were only uniformly
                  documented after the decree from the Council of Trent in 1543, the
                  overwhelming
                  majority of old records in the archives are either property records, tax
                  records,
                  or court records over property disputes, particularly the latter (and these

                  documents were written mostly in Latin as it was the official language of
                  correspondence until the late 1700's). Very few historical documents were
                  commemorations in and of themselves. Most commemorations occurred with the
                  context of records relating to a dispute over property, where a reference
                  may be
                  made to a person's past valor in battle, etc. As Bill insightfully points
                  outs, the genealogy of a person was generally only given in property
                  disputes to
                  prove title to real property, and in many of these cases, it was often
                  family
                  disputes between different branches of a larger family clan.

                  The surname WACHTENHEIM is comprised of two elements -- WACHTEN generally
                  meaning "guard" or "watchman" and "HEIM" meaning "home." If you do some
                  further research, even on GOOGLE, you may find some very interesting
                  aspects/twists
                  on the name and/or meaning of the name. Generally, most of the German words

                  used in the territory of Slovakia were derived from Old High German (the
                  German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains before 1050 A.D.) and Middle

                  High
                  German (the German dialects spoken in the "high" mountains between 1050
                  A.D.
                  and 1350 AD). Since the 11th century, Saxons immigrated to the territory of

                  Slovakia, particularly to the Gemer region and subsequently to the Spis
                  region. There was a particularly large concentration of German people in
                  the
                  Spis
                  region (similar to Transylvania which was also settled by Saxons), and the
                  SAKSA surname meaning "Saxon" is found in the Spis region, as I discovered
                  the
                  same among the surnames of godparents in my family.

                  In terms of researching any part of the territory which was formerly part
                  of
                  the kingdom of Hungarian, the best source for older records (apart from
                  birth, death, marriage, and military) would probably be ARCANUM (literally
                  "the
                  archives") which can be accessed through Bill Tarkulich's excellent website

                  at
                  _www.iabsi.com_ (_http://www.iabsi.htt_ (http://www.iabsi.com/) ) .
                  Sometimes, you find something in
                  the archives about a particular surname, especially in the 1715 Hungarian
                  Urbarial Census. In many instances, I have found that certain surnames
                  appearing
                  in a village in the 19th century also existed in the same or nearby village

                  in the 1715 Hungarian Urbarial Census. I wish you well in your research
                  endeavors.

                  Best regards,

                  David









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                  http://www.aol.com.


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                • jump4toys@aol.com
                  Where can I access the 1869 census? Is it listed by name? Alphabetical order? DAniel Remember, the 1715 census was a TAX census. Only property holders (not
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 4, 2007
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                    Where can I access the 1869 census?
                    Is it listed by name? Alphabetical order?

                    DAniel




                    Remember, the 1715 census was a TAX census. Only property holders (not
                    their families) were enumerated. The first "modern" census, when they
                    counted everyone did not occur until 1869.

                    Bill









                    ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


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