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Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in Upper Hungary (Slovakia)

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  • Michael Mojher
    Helene, It was your message about Dr. Sutherland s reference to the Plavci and Plavec that got me investigating them years ago. My ancestal village of Hromos
    Message 1 of 24 , May 7, 2007
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      Helene,
      It was your message about Dr. Sutherland's reference to the Plavci and Plavec that got me investigating them years ago. My ancestal village of Hromos is only 3 km from Plavec and Plavnica.
      I wrote Dr. Nora Berend in England, she lectures on the Cumani. I told her of Dr. Sutherland's reference. She said that she has never in research found such a reference.
      If you can ask Dr. Sutherland where he learned of the Plavci and Plav town connection I would very much be interested in it.
      The Historical Atlas of Central Europe, Map 6: Central Europe, ca. 1250 refer to the Cumani in Hungary as the Kuns. The settled predominately in central Hungary between the Ipel' and Tisza rivers.
      The Avars are interesting. Their Avar Khanate in the north was in the Slovaks territory. The H.A.C.E., Map 3:Central Europe, 7th and 8th centuries shows the Slovaks occupied the the territory south of the Carpathian Mountains, west almost to the Morava River, east and south to what is much of modern Slovakia. What the Avars did was bring new Slavs with them when the invaded from the east and then took them to the Balkans, along with established Slavs of the territory, ie. the Slovaks. When the Avars retreated back to their Khanate the Slavs stayed behind. Resulting in Carinthian and Pannonian Slavs being established. The Slavic Croats and Serbs were established when the Byzantine Emperor invited them to settle in the Empires hinderlands as a buffer to the Avars.
      The Avars were a nomadic people of Mongolian or Turco-Tatar origin. After their defeat in the 810s it only took a decade for the reference to Avars was no longer used. A number of them are said to have gone to Nitra (Slovakia) to help form a new state. Their hypothetical descendants, the Szekely (who apparently preserved the Avar Dragon Totem well into the 15th century were relocated to Transylvania in the 12th century.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: helene cincebeaux
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 4:51 AM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in Upper Hungary (Slovakia)


      Thanks Michael! Intrigued by the Cumani people. Dr.
      Tony Sutherland of Jednota told me that they were also
      called the Plavci people and the various places with
      Plavec in the village name were settled by them for
      example Plavec in Saris in eastern Slovakia and
      Plavecky Podhradie in southwestern Slovakia.

      Fascinating to think of such a major migration by such
      an exotic peoples. Also intrigued with the fierce
      Avars who were known for their beautiful motifs,
      (possibly related to the famed Scythians) and for
      their songs!

      helene

      --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

      > Helene,
      > In the 1200's a people called the Cumani joined
      > forces with the Hungarian Empire to make a stand
      > against Genghis Khan. Genghis Khan died before
      > reaching Hungary. The Hungarians allowed 40,000
      > Cumani to settle in through out the Empire. What is
      > interesting about the Cumani is that the emigrated
      > from along the Yellow River below Mongolia. They
      > were not a purely Asian race. They belonged to a
      > Turkic group. Nonetheless, they had a very
      > distinctive look, some with very 'almond' eyes.
      > I suspect that your photograph of the women in
      > Levice was of Cumani heritage. By the Ottoman
      > invasion they had been living in Hungary for 400
      > years.
      > Michael
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: helene cincebeaux
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:40 PM
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in
      > Upper Hungary (Slovakia)
      >
      >
      > Have you seen Karel Plicka's photograph of women
      > in
      > Levice - they look totally oriental - maybe it was
      > the
      > earlier incursion of Tatars that casued this
      >
      > However I seem to recall that that area was
      > occupied
      > by the Turks much longer than a year - more like
      > decades.
      >
      > But this is only an impression - nice to get more
      > info
      > on something that is hard to research in English.
      > thanks to all
      >
      > helene
      >
      > --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:
      >
      > > An article in Spectacular Slovakia said in 1663
      > the
      > > Ottoman's controlled Nita, Nove Zamky and
      > Levice,
      > > only for one year.
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: helene cincebeaux
      > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:24 AM
      > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in
      > > Upper Hungary (Slovakia)
      > >
      > >
      > > Interesting - i read somewhere that they came up
      > > the
      > > rivers into Moravia and Slovakia - would be
      > > curious to
      > > know which rivers and how far up - some were in
      > > eastern Slovakia I recall.
      > >
      > > helene
      > >
      > > --- konekta@... wrote:
      > >
      > > > No Turks there. They took only the southern
      > belt
      > > of
      > > > present Slovakia.
      > > > Vladimir
      > > >
      > > > _____
      > > >
      > > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      > > > Behalf Of fernbrough
      > > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:20 PM
      > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in
      > Upper
      > > > Hungary (Slovakia)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Are there any maps that show the extent the
      > > Ottoman
      > > > Empire extended in
      > > > current day eastern Slovakia in the 1600's?
      > > >
      > > > I am specifically interested in seeing a
      > map(s)
      > > at
      > > > village level.
      > > >
      > > > My relatives came from Raslavice (Saros), Mala
      > > > Vieska (Saros)and
      > > > Komarany (Zemplin).
      > > >
      > > > Thanks in advance.
      > > >
      > > > Bob S.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > > > removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      __________________________________________________________
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      > > Download and play hundreds of games for free on
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      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > > removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      __________________________________________________________
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    • david1law@aol.com
      Hello: In regard to the Cumans (also known as POLOVCY in Russian and POLOVTSI in Ukrainian), there are several counties in Hungarian -- BACS-KISKUN and
      Message 2 of 24 , May 7, 2007
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        Hello:

        In regard to the Cumans (also known as POLOVCY in Russian and POLOVTSI in
        Ukrainian), there are several counties in Hungarian -- BACS-KISKUN and
        JASZ-NAGYKUN-SZOLNOK that had significant populations of Cumans (KUN in Hungarian --
        KUNOK (plural) in Hungarian). I believe that the PALOC people in NOGRAD
        county -- centered around HOLLOKO -- may possibly be of Cuman origin as well, as
        I have seen a reference that the name is derived from the Slavic name for the
        Cumans. The village of HOLLOKO in northern Hungary is on the UNESCO World
        Heritage List.

        Best regards,

        David



        ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Paul Tomasko
        Hello everyone I have been following along with these postings finding it very interesting. In my family which comes from the village of Siba, County Saris, my
        Message 3 of 24 , May 7, 2007
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          Hello everyone

          I have been following along with these postings finding it very interesting.
          In my family which comes from the village of Siba, County Saris, my
          fathers brother has a very distinctive Asian look to him. He really looks
          like the guy from the movie Karate Kid, (you know wax on, wax off) I do not
          have any proof or cement facts and just figured that when the Khan invaded
          they raped, and burned villages. Or there was always the chance my 5th or
          6th Great Grandmother really liked a big hulking Mongol and took him as a
          husband. My question is...Is this a trait that is seen often in families
          coming from North Eastern Slovakia?

          Thank you all

          Paul Tomasko

          searching surnames: Tomasko, Tomascin, Tomascsin, Tomastyik, Mackanin,
          Macskanyin, Homa




          >From: david1law@...
          >Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in Upper Hungary (Slovakia)
          >Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 19:27:06 EDT
          >
          >Hello:
          >
          >In regard to the Cumans (also known as POLOVCY in Russian and POLOVTSI in
          >Ukrainian), there are several counties in Hungarian -- BACS-KISKUN and
          >JASZ-NAGYKUN-SZOLNOK that had significant populations of Cumans (KUN in
          >Hungarian --
          >KUNOK (plural) in Hungarian). I believe that the PALOC people in NOGRAD
          >county -- centered around HOLLOKO -- may possibly be of Cuman origin as
          >well, as
          >I have seen a reference that the name is derived from the Slavic name for
          >the
          >Cumans. The village of HOLLOKO in northern Hungary is on the UNESCO World
          >Heritage List.
          >
          >Best regards,
          >
          >David
          >
          >
          >
          >************************************** See what's free at
          >http://www.aol.com
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • david1law@aol.com
          Hi Paul: It would be hard to tell, based upon looks alone, whether any bloodline traces back to an Asian ancestor, although it certainly possible. The city
          Message 4 of 24 , May 7, 2007
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            Hi Paul:

            It would be hard to tell, based upon looks alone, whether any bloodline
            traces back to an Asian ancestor, although it certainly possible. The city of
            PRESOV in SARIS county was a cross-roads to the north and south, as well as to
            the east and west, and over time, there were at least several Asian groups
            that may have influenced the genetics of the population, including the Mongols,
            the Cumans, and the Sarmatians. Interestingly, the Slavic name for the
            Cumans -- POLOVTSI means "pale" or "yellow" so that may also be a possibility. In
            addition, a Sarmatian tribe known as the IAZYGES (JASZ in Hungarian),
            another ethnic group from the Sea of Azov area in Asia, probably had the most
            profound interaction with the Slavs, and were a neighboring people as the word for
            "tongue" / "language" / "accent" in Slovak is JAZYK and derived from the
            name of the Sarmatian IAZGYES/JAZYGES.

            _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges)

            Indeed, according to Polish tradition and legend, there is a connection
            between the Sarmatians and Polish nobility.

            _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians_
            (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians)

            I find the history of the territory of Slovakia and the various ethnic
            groups who influenced the region over the centuries to be quite fascinating. By
            the way, there was a great show on the History Channel's Digging for the Truth
            with Josh Bernstein regarding the Mongols and tracing some the DNA of some
            modern day Mongols back to Genghis Khan. I believe it was the episode "Lost
            World of Genghis Khan." You may be able to find some information about the
            show on the web if you do a GOOGLE search).


            Your surname -- TOMASKO -- also caught my attention. One of my great,
            great, great grandmothers is a SUSANNA TOMASOV. I have found the TOMASOV surname
            to be rather uncommon in Slovakia, and it has been mentioned to me from a
            very reliable source that there are other variations of the surname, one of
            which may be TOMASKO. (Helene, if you are reading this posting, please be so kind
            as to refresh my recollection as to other derivations of the TOMASOV
            surname. I believe you mentioned to me a long time ago that it may be something
            like TOMKO or TOMASKO). My TOMASOV clan is from the village of HRISOVCE in SPIS
            county, right on the border of SARIS. I do not know if there is any
            connection, but you never know.


            Best regards,


            David




            ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael Mojher
            Paul, Slovakia is one of those cross-road locations where migration paths over history have come through or near it. In an earlier reply I wrote of the Avars
            Message 5 of 24 , May 7, 2007
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              Paul,
              Slovakia is one of those 'cross-road' locations where migration paths over history have come through or near it. In an earlier reply I wrote of the Avars from Mongolia in 700's and 800's. In the 900's the Magyars came. Around 1050 the Pechenegs, who were allied with the Cumani were in the upper half of modern Slovakia. In the 1200's the Cumani/Kuns.
              Siba is in the traditional area of the Sub-Carpathian Rusyns. The potential to have any and all of these groups in our DNA is there.
              I submitted my DNA to the National Geographic Genographic project. My 12 marker analysis showed my DNA migration path left Africa, went through the Middle East, Central Asia, Northeast Europe and finally with major populations in France, Spain and the British Isles. The 12 marker analysis is good for my ancestors 10,000 years ago. By having more markers done I would get more specific and closer to me profile of my DNA. It would also narrow the pool of people that are related to me. With the 12 marker I have been sent a list of over 1000 people that have identical DNA profiles. Which means 10,000 years ago we shared a common ancestor. Talk about distant cousins!
              Michael
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Paul Tomasko
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 5:12 PM
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in Upper Hungary (Slovakia)


              Hello everyone

              I have been following along with these postings finding it very interesting.
              In my family which comes from the village of Siba, County Saris, my
              fathers brother has a very distinctive Asian look to him. He really looks
              like the guy from the movie Karate Kid, (you know wax on, wax off) I do not
              have any proof or cement facts and just figured that when the Khan invaded
              they raped, and burned villages. Or there was always the chance my 5th or
              6th Great Grandmother really liked a big hulking Mongol and took him as a
              husband. My question is...Is this a trait that is seen often in families
              coming from North Eastern Slovakia?

              Thank you all

              Paul Tomasko

              searching surnames: Tomasko, Tomascin, Tomascsin, Tomastyik, Mackanin,
              Macskanyin, Homa

              >From: david1law@...
              >Reply-To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in Upper Hungary (Slovakia)
              >Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 19:27:06 EDT
              >
              >Hello:
              >
              >In regard to the Cumans (also known as POLOVCY in Russian and POLOVTSI in
              >Ukrainian), there are several counties in Hungarian -- BACS-KISKUN and
              >JASZ-NAGYKUN-SZOLNOK that had significant populations of Cumans (KUN in
              >Hungarian --
              >KUNOK (plural) in Hungarian). I believe that the PALOC people in NOGRAD
              >county -- centered around HOLLOKO -- may possibly be of Cuman origin as
              >well, as
              >I have seen a reference that the name is derived from the Slavic name for
              >the
              >Cumans. The village of HOLLOKO in northern Hungary is on the UNESCO World
              >Heritage List.
              >
              >Best regards,
              >
              >David
              >
              >
              >
              >************************************** See what's free at
              >http://www.aol.com
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • konekta@nm.psg.sk
              Dear David, Hrisovce had 53 house numbers in 1869 Census. #25 was Alojz Tomasov I have a client, who also has ancestors from Hrisovce ( actually I am working
              Message 6 of 24 , May 7, 2007
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                Dear David,
                Hrisovce had 53 house numbers in 1869 Census.
                #25 was Alojz Tomasov
                I have a client, who also has ancestors from Hrisovce ( actually I am
                working on that right now).
                The whole village was heavily interrelated.
                Please, contact me off list.
                Regards,
                Vladimir


                _____

                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of david1law@...
                Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:24 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in Upper Hungary (Slovakia)



                Hi Paul:

                It would be hard to tell, based upon looks alone, whether any bloodline
                traces back to an Asian ancestor, although it certainly possible. The city
                of
                PRESOV in SARIS county was a cross-roads to the north and south, as well as
                to
                the east and west, and over time, there were at least several Asian groups
                that may have influenced the genetics of the population, including the
                Mongols,
                the Cumans, and the Sarmatians. Interestingly, the Slavic name for the
                Cumans -- POLOVTSI means "pale" or "yellow" so that may also be a
                possibility. In
                addition, a Sarmatian tribe known as the IAZYGES (JASZ in Hungarian),
                another ethnic group from the Sea of Azov area in Asia, probably had the
                most
                profound interaction with the Slavs, and were a neighboring people as the
                word for
                "tongue" / "language" / "accent" in Slovak is JAZYK and derived from the
                name of the Sarmatian IAZGYES/JAZYGES.

                _http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges_>
                .org/wiki/Iazyges_ (http://en.wikipedia
                <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges> .org/wiki/Iazyges)

                Indeed, according to Polish tradition and legend, there is a connection
                between the Sarmatians and Polish nobility.

                _http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians_>
                .org/wiki/Sarmatians_
                (http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians>
                .org/wiki/Sarmatians)

                I find the history of the territory of Slovakia and the various ethnic
                groups who influenced the region over the centuries to be quite fascinating.
                By
                the way, there was a great show on the History Channel's Digging for the
                Truth
                with Josh Bernstein regarding the Mongols and tracing some the DNA of some
                modern day Mongols back to Genghis Khan. I believe it was the episode "Lost
                World of Genghis Khan." You may be able to find some information about the
                show on the web if you do a GOOGLE search).


                Your surname -- TOMASKO -- also caught my attention. One of my great,
                great, great grandmothers is a SUSANNA TOMASOV. I have found the TOMASOV
                surname
                to be rather uncommon in Slovakia, and it has been mentioned to me from a
                very reliable source that there are other variations of the surname, one of
                which may be TOMASKO. (Helene, if you are reading this posting, please be so
                kind
                as to refresh my recollection as to other derivations of the TOMASOV
                surname. I believe you mentioned to me a long time ago that it may be
                something
                like TOMKO or TOMASKO). My TOMASOV clan is from the village of HRISOVCE in
                SPIS
                county, right on the border of SARIS. I do not know if there is any
                connection, but you never know.


                Best regards,


                David


                ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol
                <http://www.aol.com> com.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • david1law@aol.com
                Hi Vladimir: Thank you very much for the information regarding Hrisovce. I would definitely like to learn more about the potential contact. What is your
                Message 7 of 24 , May 8, 2007
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                  Hi Vladimir:

                  Thank you very much for the information regarding Hrisovce. I would
                  definitely like to learn more about the potential contact. What is your e-mail
                  address? Thank you again.

                  Please

                  Best regards,

                  David



                  ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • konekta@nm.psg.sk
                  Dear David, here I am Vladimir Bohinc Professional Genealogist KONEKTA s.r.o., Dukelska 11, 915 01 Nove Mesto n.V., Slovak Republic Tel/Fax; xx421 32 7710 375
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 8, 2007
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                    Dear David,
                    here I am
                    Vladimir Bohinc
                    Professional Genealogist
                    KONEKTA s.r.o., Dukelska 11, 915 01 Nove Mesto n.V., Slovak Republic
                    Tel/Fax; xx421 32 7710 375
                    e-mail: konekta@...
                    web page: www.konekta.sk <http://www.konekta.sk/>



                    _____

                    From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of david1law@...
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 10:07 AM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Extent of Ottoman Empire in Upper Hungary (Slovakia)



                    Hi Vladimir:

                    Thank you very much for the information regarding Hrisovce. I would
                    definitely like to learn more about the potential contact. What is your
                    e-mail
                    address? Thank you again.

                    Please

                    Best regards,

                    David

                    ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol
                    <http://www.aol.com> com.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • helene cincebeaux
                    Thanks to all for the really fascinating comments on this topic - this is where our group shines - all that wonderful knowledge and expertise and willingness
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 9, 2007
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                      Thanks to all for the really fascinating comments on
                      this topic - this is where our group shines - all that
                      wonderful knowledge and expertise and willingness to
                      share. Bravo!!!!

                      helene

                      __________________________________________________
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                    • david1law@aol.com
                      Dear Vladimir: Thank you very much for putting me in touch with Stephen Zehala, whose ancestors are also from the village of Hrisovce. He spoke very highly of
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 17, 2007
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                        Dear Vladimir:

                        Thank you very much for putting me in touch with Stephen Zehala, whose
                        ancestors are also from the village of Hrisovce. He spoke very highly of your
                        genealogical work for him. You became their adopted family hero. It definitely
                        looks like we share common roots in the TOMASOV clan. You were also right
                        that I would recognize many of the other names connected with their family.
                        Thank you again, my friend.


                        Best regards,


                        David



                        ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • david1law@aol.com
                        Hi Helene: Thank you for the postings of the surnames and villages in the SLOVAK PRIDE database. Your work helped me to connect to a third cousin of mine,
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 17, 2007
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                          Hi Helene:

                          Thank you for the postings of the surnames and villages in the SLOVAK PRIDE
                          database. Your work helped me to connect to a third cousin of mine, ALENA
                          BALOGA, in the village of HRISOVCE, where my grandfather ANDREW BALOGA and my
                          great grandfather NICHOLAS BALOGA were born. ALENA is a descendant of my
                          great grandfather's brother MATHIAS BALOGA, and we are both descendants of my
                          great, great grandparents JAN BALOGA and SUSANNA TOMASOV. Thank you again for
                          all your work

                          Best regards,


                          David Michael Baloga






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