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Re: [S-R] Battle of Dukla Pass - May 5, 2007 - Bridgeport, CT

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  • david1law@aol.com
    Dear William: I believe that you owe Bill Tarkulich a sincere apology. You jump to the conclusion that Bill is glorifying war without knowing the substance
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 7, 2007
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      Dear William:

      I believe that you owe Bill Tarkulich a sincere apology. You jump to the
      conclusion that Bill is glorifying war without knowing the substance of his
      lecture. War is a terrible thing, but sometimes it is necessary. I do,
      however, find your remarks terribly offensive. Those who do nothing when others
      such other people such as the millions of Jews and Slavs are being killed preach
      not peace and love but evil. And those who gave their lives fighting for
      their country, their families, their neighbors, and their friends deserved to be
      remembered for their sacrifice and their admirable actions. As Jesus
      himself said: "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for
      his friends." (The Gospel of John 15;13). That is the true message of Easter.
      And that is the same reason why the 138,000+ as well as all others who
      sacrificed their lives in the war need to be remembered. My own great
      grandfather FRANTISZEK MOSKAL died near Dukla Pass in World War I, and his name is on a
      war memorial near Krosno, Poland along with along with a number of other
      Poles who gave their lives fighting for their country, their family, and their
      friends. Another cousin PAUL LEHOCKY died in World War II. Had the fallen
      not died in the war, how many others would have died while the foolish and/or
      the evil stood by and did nothing?

      And frankly, William, your prayer at the end of your e-mail about no further
      wars is UNBIBLICAL as well and defies God's word. Revelation 12:7 foretells
      that there will be future wars against evil: "And war broke out in heaven:
      Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels
      fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any
      longer." William, you need to read the bible more and in a greater and
      clearer context and not unwittingly distort God's message. No sane person wants
      war, but war is sometimes necessary to defeat evil. I do believe that you
      still owe Bill Tarkulich and the others in this forum a sincere apology for
      your earlier remarks, and would recommend that you read those passages in
      John's Gospel and in Revelation in their greater context so you will see the error
      of your earlier remarks. I do forgive you and wish you a Happy Easter.


      Sincerely,


      David Michael Baloga



      ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Edie
      Oh, it s not the OT authors, it s human beings or human nature. I agree with the others that we need to study history so as not to repeat the mistakes of the
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 7, 2007
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        Oh, it's not the OT authors, it's human beings or human nature. I agree with the others that we need to study history so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
        edie

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: TR HOMEMAIL
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 2:49 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Battle of Dukla Pass - May 5, 2007 - Bridgeport, CT


        Well, that's the reason I despise the Old Testament authors as much as the
        Nazis. Same tribal-genocidal mindset. At least the Amish and Mennonites were
        able to pick out decent parts of the Judeo-Christian religion and become
        pacifists.

        Thomas

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Milan Huba" <illy@...>
        To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 4:07 PM
        Subject: RE: [S-R] Battle of Dukla Pass - May 5, 2007 - Bridgeport, CT

        > I agree that war is a terrible thing. But learning about our history is
        not
        > glorifying war. To paraphrase George Santayana, those who fail to learn
        > the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.
        >
        >
        >
        > Since you brought God into the picture, you might want to read your Old
        > Testament. According to the Old Testament, God instructed the Children of
        > Isreal to smite, or to make war, against the Canaanites. Not only were
        the
        > Israelites told to attack and destroy the cities in the Land of Canaan,
        but
        > they were also told to kill everybody including the women and children.
        >
        > Like you, I wish that there would be no further wars. But that is only a
        > dream and will never become a reality. If we want to keep the freedoms
        that
        > we have here in America, we must be prepared to fight and die for them.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]On
        > Behalf Of William F Brna
        > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 12:58 PM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Battle of Dukla Pass - May 5, 2007 - Bridgeport, CT
        >
        >
        > Why do we have to keep glorifying war? Isn't it horrible enough that
        > "...over 138,000" casualties happened in "...one of the bloodiest
        > conflagrations"? Now, during the holiest season in the Christian
        > calendar, we should be praying for the 138,000 casualties, and pleading
        > with God to give us the grace to follow His teachings so that there will
        > be no further wars.
        >
        > William F. Brna
        >
        > On Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:18:52 -0000 "Bill Tarkulich"
        > <bill.tarkulich@...> writes:
        >
        > BATTLE OF THE DUKLA PASS LECTURE
        >
        > BRIDGEPORT, CT, APRIL 20, 2007: The New England Chapter of the
        > Carpatho-Rusyn Society will host an interesting lecture and slide
        > presentation by noted historian, BILL TARKULICH, about the famous
        > BATTLE OF THE DUKLA PASS. The event will take place at St. John the
        > Baptist Carpatho-Russian Church at 364 Mill Hill Ave. Bridgeport CT,
        > at 1:30 PM on Saturday May 5th, 2007
        >
        > The Battle of Dukla Pass occurred at the end of the Second World War
        > in eastern Czechoslovakia. Many residents of southwestern Connecticut
        > who are of Slovak, Carpatho-Rusyn or Czech descent will be interested
        > in learning more about this event that took place in their parents'
        > homelands.
        >
        > As the Russian and First Czechoslovak Armies moved across Poland in
        > 1944, they planned a quick diversion to aid the SNP-(Slovensko Narodne
        > Povstanie / Slovak National Uprising) via the Dukla Pass. This
        > diversion became one of the bloodiest conflagrations in Slovak history
        > with casualties over 138,000. The combatants were Russian,
        > Czechoslovak, and German. The lands were remote, wooded and sparsely
        > populated.
        >
        > The Dukla Pass cuts through the Carpathian Mountains in Northeastern
        > Slovakia- as a historic strategic pass way from Poland into the
        > Hungarian Plains. The fighting occurred in a region populated by Rusyn
        > villages. At one point more than 6O% of the First Czechoslovak Army
        > were Rusyns. Special guest John Kulhan, a decorated member of the
        > (Free) Czechoslovak Army Corps and one of the few remaining combatants
        > will be in attendance.
        >
        > This very stirring lecture will take place at the Church Auditorium of
        > St. John the Baptist Church Carpatho Russian Church at 364 Mill Hill
        > Ave. Bridgeport Ct. at 1:30 PM on May 5, 2007. Admission is free!
        > Refreshments served! Donations gratefully accepted.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill Tarkulich
        Dear William Brna, There is no glory in war. This has always been my position. My presentation opens with the thought that my goal is to put a face on the
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 7, 2007
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          Dear William Brna,

          There is no glory in war. This has always been my position.

          My presentation opens with the thought that my goal is to "put a face on the
          battle." It's not a presentation of statistics, tactics, armaments, blood,
          guts and gore. It's a story of the people, the soldiers, the victims, the
          innocents. It's a story about the villages, the people, life before, during
          and afterwards. It's a story about churches that miraculously survived.
          It's a story about people from distant lands buried in graveyards and long
          since forgotten and un-prayed for. It's a story about what caused this
          battle in the first place. It's a story about army generals who chickened
          out. It's an objective look at what the Russians actually did to aid the
          SNP. It's a story about Czechoslovak soldiers who didn't even know where
          they were, in their own county. It's a story about our ancestors who were
          forced to fight on the wrong side. It's a story about noble Rusyns who
          risked their lives daily to run across the front to tell the Russians what
          the Germans were up to. It's a story about the Babkas who had to live
          through it all, then return to cleanup and start life anew.

          The simple truth is that I only became interested in this battle when trying
          to understand the lives of my ancestors and our people. To understand what
          their lives is to understand the people. There is much misunderstanding of
          what this battle was and what it did to our lands and our peoples. Even
          today our people suffer the scars of this terrible event.

          I don't dwell on these battles. They are but one piece of the puzzle of
          what makes our people who they are today.

          When I made this presentation to CRS New Jersey last year, the audience of
          nearly 100 exhibited far more appreciation than I anticipated. The audience
          was filled with Rusyns, Slovaks, nationals armed forces officers and college
          professors. Most people's comments were summarized by one remark, "I had no
          idea."

          I was driven to create this presentation because of the dearth of Western
          knowledge of the sacrifices made on the Ukrainian Front by soldiers and
          citizens alike.

          The monuments at Dukla are a respectful appreciation for the sacrifices made
          by our countrymen. It demands you be respectful, retrospective, quiet,
          appreciative and prayerful. They glorify nothing.

          Regards,

          Bill Tarkulich

          -----Original Message-----
          From: William F Brna [mailto:wfbrna@...]
          Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 2:58 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Battle of Dukla Pass - May 5, 2007 - Bridgeport, CT

          Why do we have to keep glorifying war? Isn't it horrible enough that
          "...over 138,000" casualties happened in "...one of the bloodiest
          conflagrations"? Now, during the holiest season in the Christian
          calendar, we should be praying for the 138,000 casualties, and pleading
          with God to give us the grace to follow His teachings so that there will
          be no further wars.

          William F. Brna

          On Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:18:52 -0000 "Bill Tarkulich"
          <bill.tarkulich@...> writes:

          BATTLE OF THE DUKLA PASS LECTURE
        • Andrea Vangor
          You are a real man, Bill. My thanks and admiration. ... From: Bill Tarkulich To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 4:15 PM Subject:
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 7, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            You are a real man, Bill. My thanks and admiration.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Bill Tarkulich
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 4:15 PM
            Subject: RE: [S-R] Battle of Dukla Pass - May 5, 2007 - Bridgeport, CT


            Dear William Brna,

            There is no glory in war. This has always been my position.

            My presentation opens with the thought that my goal is to "put a face on the
            battle." It's not a presentation of statistics, tactics, armaments, blood,
            guts and gore. It's a story of the people, the soldiers, the victims, the
            innocents. It's a story about the villages, the people, life before, during
            and afterwards. It's a story about churches that miraculously survived.
            It's a story about people from distant lands buried in graveyards and long
            since forgotten and un-prayed for. It's a story about what caused this
            battle in the first place. It's a story about army generals who chickened
            out. It's an objective look at what the Russians actually did to aid the
            SNP. It's a story about Czechoslovak soldiers who didn't even know where
            they were, in their own county. It's a story about our ancestors who were
            forced to fight on the wrong side. It's a story about noble Rusyns who
            risked their lives daily to run across the front to tell the Russians what
            the Germans were up to. It's a story about the Babkas who had to live
            through it all, then return to cleanup and start life anew.

            The simple truth is that I only became interested in this battle when trying
            to understand the lives of my ancestors and our people. To understand what
            their lives is to understand the people. There is much misunderstanding of
            what this battle was and what it did to our lands and our peoples. Even
            today our people suffer the scars of this terrible event.

            I don't dwell on these battles. They are but one piece of the puzzle of
            what makes our people who they are today.

            When I made this presentation to CRS New Jersey last year, the audience of
            nearly 100 exhibited far more appreciation than I anticipated. The audience
            was filled with Rusyns, Slovaks, nationals armed forces officers and college
            professors. Most people's comments were summarized by one remark, "I had no
            idea."

            I was driven to create this presentation because of the dearth of Western
            knowledge of the sacrifices made on the Ukrainian Front by soldiers and
            citizens alike.

            The monuments at Dukla are a respectful appreciation for the sacrifices made
            by our countrymen. It demands you be respectful, retrospective, quiet,
            appreciative and prayerful. They glorify nothing.

            Regards,

            Bill Tarkulich

            -----Original Message-----
            From: William F Brna [mailto:wfbrna@...]
            Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 2:58 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Battle of Dukla Pass - May 5, 2007 - Bridgeport, CT

            Why do we have to keep glorifying war? Isn't it horrible enough that
            "...over 138,000" casualties happened in "...one of the bloodiest
            conflagrations"? Now, during the holiest season in the Christian
            calendar, we should be praying for the 138,000 casualties, and pleading
            with God to give us the grace to follow His teachings so that there will
            be no further wars.

            William F. Brna

            On Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:18:52 -0000 "Bill Tarkulich"
            <bill.tarkulich@...> writes:

            BATTLE OF THE DUKLA PASS LECTURE





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael Mojher
            Bill, Your reply, like your website, in one word -quality. Michael Mojher ... From: Bill Tarkulich To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 07,
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 7, 2007
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              Bill,
              Your reply, like your website, in one word -quality.
              Michael Mojher

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Bill Tarkulich
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 4:15 PM
              Subject: RE: [S-R] Battle of Dukla Pass - May 5, 2007 - Bridgeport, CT


              Dear William Brna,

              There is no glory in war. This has always been my position.

              My presentation opens with the thought that my goal is to "put a face on the
              battle." It's not a presentation of statistics, tactics, armaments, blood,
              guts and gore. It's a story of the people, the soldiers, the victims, the
              innocents. It's a story about the villages, the people, life before, during
              and afterwards. It's a story about churches that miraculously survived.
              It's a story about people from distant lands buried in graveyards and long
              since forgotten and un-prayed for. It's a story about what caused this
              battle in the first place. It's a story about army generals who chickened
              out. It's an objective look at what the Russians actually did to aid the
              SNP. It's a story about Czechoslovak soldiers who didn't even know where
              they were, in their own county. It's a story about our ancestors who were
              forced to fight on the wrong side. It's a story about noble Rusyns who
              risked their lives daily to run across the front to tell the Russians what
              the Germans were up to. It's a story about the Babkas who had to live
              through it all, then return to cleanup and start life anew.

              The simple truth is that I only became interested in this battle when trying
              to understand the lives of my ancestors and our people. To understand what
              their lives is to understand the people. There is much misunderstanding of
              what this battle was and what it did to our lands and our peoples. Even
              today our people suffer the scars of this terrible event.

              I don't dwell on these battles. They are but one piece of the puzzle of
              what makes our people who they are today.

              When I made this presentation to CRS New Jersey last year, the audience of
              nearly 100 exhibited far more appreciation than I anticipated. The audience
              was filled with Rusyns, Slovaks, nationals armed forces officers and college
              professors. Most people's comments were summarized by one remark, "I had no
              idea."

              I was driven to create this presentation because of the dearth of Western
              knowledge of the sacrifices made on the Ukrainian Front by soldiers and
              citizens alike.

              The monuments at Dukla are a respectful appreciation for the sacrifices made
              by our countrymen. It demands you be respectful, retrospective, quiet,
              appreciative and prayerful. They glorify nothing.

              Regards,

              Bill Tarkulich

              -----Original Message-----
              From: William F Brna [mailto:wfbrna@...]
              Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 2:58 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Battle of Dukla Pass - May 5, 2007 - Bridgeport, CT

              Why do we have to keep glorifying war? Isn't it horrible enough that
              "...over 138,000" casualties happened in "...one of the bloodiest
              conflagrations"? Now, during the holiest season in the Christian
              calendar, we should be praying for the 138,000 casualties, and pleading
              with God to give us the grace to follow His teachings so that there will
              be no further wars.

              William F. Brna

              On Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:18:52 -0000 "Bill Tarkulich"
              <bill.tarkulich@...> writes:

              BATTLE OF THE DUKLA PASS LECTURE





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • William F Brna
              David Baloga, david1law@aol.com wrote: I believe that you owe Bill Tarkulich a sincere apology. You jump to the conclusion that Bill is glorifying war
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 8, 2007
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                David Baloga, david1law@... wrote: "I believe that you owe Bill
                Tarkulich a sincere apology. You jump to the conclusion that Bill is
                glorifying war without knowing the substance of his lecture." I do not
                agree. While it is true that I do not know the substance of his lecture,
                he, himself, tells us in the subject space that his subject is the Battle
                of Dukla Pass. If the battle is itself not the subject of his lecture,
                he should have told us what the subject is. I cannot divine from the
                stated subject that that is not what he is really going to talk about.

                What is it about my remarks that you find to be terribly offensive? Is
                it that I do not believe in glorifying war, or is it that I do not
                believe that over 138,000 casualties is not something horrible? I prefer
                to remember not those who gave their lives in battle but my Brna cousins
                who are named among the Righteous Gentiles in the Holocaust Museum for
                their efforts in saving the lives of several Jews.

                Please explain to me how my prayer, asking God to give us the grace to
                follow His teachings so that there will be no further wars, "...defies
                God's word"? How have I distorted God's word?

                Finally, I find your last sentence to be gratuitously offensive since I
                need no apology from you and, frankly, could care less that you ",,,do
                forgive ( me)."

                William F. Brna
              • david1law@aol.com
                Dear William: Simply stated, you accused Bill Tarkulich of glorifying war without knowing the substance of his remarks. That is why I said you owed him an
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 8, 2007
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                  Dear William:

                  Simply stated, you accused Bill Tarkulich of glorifying war without knowing
                  the substance of his remarks. That is why I said you owed him an apology,
                  and that is why at least two others wrote that your comment about glorifying the
                  war was off the mark. If you don't know what the substance of his remarks
                  was going to be, as you acknowledge in your last e-mail, then you should not
                  have accused him of glorifying war, and Bill would not have had to spent
                  unnecessary time away from his family on Easter having to explain why he was not
                  glorifying war in his upcoming lecture. If you don't understand this, then
                  you don't. What was offensive about your remarks is your jumping to conclusion
                  that anyone who wanted to remember those who died are automatically
                  "glorifying" war. Those of us who have lost family members in war know that war is a
                  horrible thing. In many instances, we may have not only lost the ones who
                  actually died in the war but potential future generations as well. Your remark
                  about preferring not to remember those who gave their lives in battle
                  certainly shows your lack of sympathy to those whose family members have died in
                  battle. This same lack of sympathy was clearly evident in your earlier remark
                  about those who wanted to remember the 138,000+ who died in the Battle of
                  Dukla Pass as "glorifying" war. I can certainly understand wanting to remember
                  the heroic actions of family members who saved the lives of Jews and
                  definitely commend your family members who did. I also have family members who are
                  among the Polish righteous for saving Jews. In regard to your prayer for no
                  future wars, it contradicts God's word in the Book of Revelation, including
                  Revelation 12:7, as God certainly foretells that there will be future wars
                  against evil. God is certainly not a pacifist against evil. As for your remarks
                  about not accepting my forgiveness for your earlier remarks, especially on
                  this Easter Sunday, your own words speak volumes about yourself.

                  .
                  Sincerely,


                  David Michael Baloga



                  ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jerry & Liz Dente
                  I seldom post because I don t feel nearly as knowledgeable as most other members however I felt I must comment on this discussion. As a genealogist my role is
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 9, 2007
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                    I seldom post because I don't feel nearly as knowledgeable as most other
                    members however I felt I must comment on this discussion.
                    As a genealogist my role is to research, document and pass on the history of
                    my ancestors. Many times I face people who say - let the past go - or only
                    write down the "good" things about our family - but I feel a duty to
                    preserve the whole, true story of my family - their hardships, their
                    mistakes and their bravery at facing the unknown to better their lives and
                    the lives of their families. When someone like Bill Tarkulich adds to my
                    knowledge and understanding of history by his research - I am so grateful.
                    As the wife and mother of soldiers - and as someone who has documented the
                    deaths of family members who died in war I am more than thankful when an
                    historian like Bill memorializes these sacrifices and places their loss in
                    the context of historical perspective.
                    When William mentions his relatives who helped the Jews during WWII I
                    commend those relatives but wonder what they would think of William's
                    comments? Do you think, during the war they were thinking - we don't want
                    those soldiers to come and help us? Do you think they thought it would be
                    glamorizing war to accept the liberation, salvation and freedom many
                    soldiers bought with their lives? I think his ancestors would be deeply
                    embarrassed by William's glib remarks - those who benefit from the blood and
                    sacrifice of others shouldn't be so quick to dismiss or judge their actions
                    when they have the safety of time and distance from those terrible events.
                    Elizabeth Dente




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Evelyn Marsh
                    Thank you, Elizabeth and also David and Michael - I could not have expressed my feelings as well as you all have - I totally agree with you, thank you. I do
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 9, 2007
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                      Thank you, Elizabeth and also David and Michael - I could not have expressed my feelings as well as you all have - I totally agree with you, thank you. I do hope the issue is now closed and William sees more clearly the reason for Bill's lecture - after all, we all had to study the Spanish, Revolution, Civil and WWI & II Wars in school - education never stops.

                      Evelyn

                      Jerry & Liz Dente <brookft@...> wrote:
                      I seldom post because I don't feel nearly as knowledgeable as most other
                      members however I felt I must comment on this discussion.
                      As a genealogist my role is to research, document and pass on the history of
                      my ancestors. Many times I face people who say - let the past go - or only
                      write down the "good" things about our family - but I feel a duty to
                      preserve the whole, true story of my family - their hardships, their
                      mistakes and their bravery at facing the unknown to better their lives and
                      the lives of their families. When someone like Bill Tarkulich adds to my
                      knowledge and understanding of history by his research - I am so grateful.
                      As the wife and mother of soldiers - and as someone who has documented the
                      deaths of family members who died in war I am more than thankful when an
                      historian like Bill memorializes these sacrifices and places their loss in
                      the context of historical perspective.
                      When William mentions his relatives who helped the Jews during WWII I
                      commend those relatives but wonder what they would think of William's
                      comments? Do you think, during the war they were thinking - we don't want
                      those soldiers to come and help us? Do you think they thought it would be
                      glamorizing war to accept the liberation, salvation and freedom many
                      soldiers bought with their lives? I think his ancestors would be deeply
                      embarrassed by William's glib remarks - those who benefit from the blood and
                      sacrifice of others shouldn't be so quick to dismiss or judge their actions
                      when they have the safety of time and distance from those terrible events.
                      Elizabeth Dente



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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