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RE: [S-R] DRAVCI village

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  • Bill Tarkulich
    DRAWCE = UNGDAROK 1910 Census pop 1103: 754 magyar, 49 slovak, 297 Ruthene. 125 Roman C., 867 Greek C, 98 Jews Bill ... From: christopher gajda
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 10, 2007
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      DRAWCE = UNGDAROK

      1910 Census
      pop 1103: 754 magyar, 49 slovak, 297 Ruthene. 125 Roman C., 867 Greek C, 98
      Jews


      Bill


      -----Original Message-----
      From: christopher gajda [mailto:christophergajda@...]
      Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 10:11 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] DRAVCI village

      All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd
      appreciate it!!!!!!

      Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: I presume you have
      the historical information on the church and need not
      that either then?
      Regards,
      Bill
      On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
      > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
      > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
      > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
      > trying!!! Chris
      >
      > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
      > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
      > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
      > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
      > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
      > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
      > Bill
      >
      > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
      >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
      >> about
      >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
      >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
      >> access to archives.
      >> Thanks - Chris
      >>
      >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
      >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
      >> In many
      >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
      >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
      >> came together in one place Again, not always.
      >>
      >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
      >> information,
      >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
      >> contrary.
      >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
      >> D
      >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
      >> start somewhere else.
      >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
      >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
      >> lost,
      >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
      >>
      >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
      >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
      >> archives has.
      >>
      >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
      >> it.
      >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
      >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
      >> in
      >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
      >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
      >>
      >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
      >> other
      >> questions about how far back church records go.
      >>
      >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
      >> event
      >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
      >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
      >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
      >> before
      >> you try to cast your net too wide.
      >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
      >> village
      >> or region can be helpful also.
      >>
      >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
      >> (Rimaszombati
      >> )
      >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
      >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
      >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
      >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
      >> opinion,
      >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
      >> abbreviation.
      >>
      >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
      >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
      >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
      >> It
      >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
      >> sample
      >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
      >>
      >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
      >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
      >> devote
      >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
      >> questions
      >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
      >>
      >> Regards,
      >>
      >> Bill
      >>
      >>
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
      >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
      >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
      >>
      >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
      >> the
      >> little information I have.
      >>
      >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
      >> records
      >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
      >> handwritten
      >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
      >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
      >>
      >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
      >> they
      >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
      >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
      >> really
      >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
      >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
      >> really
      >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
      >> years.
      >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
      >> 1566.
      >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
      >> was
      >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
      >> but
      >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
      >> 1860
      >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
      >>
      >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
      >>
      >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
      >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
      >> So,
      >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
      >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
      >> Roman
      >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
      >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
      >>
      >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
      >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
      >>
      >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
      >> possibility
      >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
      >> get
      >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
      >> if
      >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
      >>
      >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
      >> Hugs from Argentina,
      >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
      >>
      >> From: Bill Tarkulich
      >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
      >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
      >>
      >> I'll take a shot at #1:
      >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
      >> followed
      >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
      >> what
      >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
      >> don't
      >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
      >> mean?
      >>
      >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
      >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
      >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
      >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
      >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
      >>
      >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
      >> important
      >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
      >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
      >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
      >> example, in the case of rape.
      >>
      >> - What religion are the records you examined?
      >>
      >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
      >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
      >> years ago.
      >>
      >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
      >> mother's birth record in the village?
      >>
      >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
      >>
      >> Regards,
      >> Bill
      >>
      >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
      >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
      >>> child
      >>> was
      >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
      >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
      >>> parents weren't married.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
      >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
      >>> child's
      >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
      >> was
      >>> a
      >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
      >>> "died"
      >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
      >>> in
      >>> one
      >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
      >>> infancy.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Janet
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> _____
      >>>
      >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
      >>> On
      >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
      >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
      >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Hi, everyone!
      >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
      >>> and
      >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
      >>>
      >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
      >>> followed
      >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
      >> what
      >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
      >>> don't
      >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
      >>> mean?
      >>>
      >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
      >> father's
      >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
      >>> only
      >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
      >> it
      >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
      >> or
      >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
      >> you
      >>> solve this mysteries?
      >>>
      >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
      >>> Thanks as always,
      >>>
      >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
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      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >> --
      >> Bill Tarkulich
      >> http://www.iabsi.com
      >>
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      >>
      >>
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      >
      > --
      > Bill Tarkulich
      > http://www.iabsi.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      --
      Bill Tarkulich
      http://www.iabsi.com






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