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Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

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  • Alan Antoska
    Michael, ... I too have seen different birth locations within a family BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the family) temporarily relocated
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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      Michael,

      --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

      > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the
      > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
      > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
      > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
      > etc.

      I too have seen different birth locations within a family
      BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the
      family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).

      Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative (mother,
      M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
      water, convenience, care of other children.

      I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations in
      the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude that
      a family moved.

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    • Bill Tarkulich
      I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions were so abject that the entire house collapsed and the people simply moved down the street and built a
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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        I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions were so abject that
        the entire house collapsed and the people simply "moved down the street" and
        built a new house. (Houses were sometimes "renumbered", or simply listed in
        sequential order, which is one reason I don't care to follow any number
        used.)


        Bill


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Alan Antoska [mailto:aantoska@...]
        Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:42 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

        Michael,

        --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

        > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the
        > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
        > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
        > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
        > etc.

        I too have seen different birth locations within a family
        BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the
        family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).

        Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative (mother,
        M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
        water, convenience, care of other children.

        I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations in
        the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude that
        a family moved.

        Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


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      • Alan Antoska
        Bill, now you re being too hasty. :-) House numbers, are an excellent guide . We have too few clues as is, to dismiss them completely. Judicious use of house
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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          Bill, now you're being too hasty. :-)

          House numbers, are an excellent 'guide'. We have too few
          clues as is, to dismiss them completely. Judicious use of
          house numbers does reveal a pattern, and, in my research
          house numbers have both tipped the scales of probability
          and added to my list of unanswered questions.

          But as a guide, used judiciously, and presuming the scribe
          got them right, I for one, "luv 'em".
          cheers

          --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

          > I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions
          > were so abject that
          > the entire house collapsed and the people simply "moved
          > down the street" and
          > built a new house. (Houses were sometimes "renumbered",
          > or simply listed in
          > sequential order, which is one reason I don't care to
          > follow any number
          > used.)
          >
          >
          > Bill
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Alan Antoska [mailto:aantoska@...]
          > Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:42 PM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's
          >
          > Michael,
          >
          > --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:
          >
          > > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in
          > the
          > > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
          > > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
          > > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
          > > etc.
          >
          > I too have seen different birth locations within a family
          > BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not
          > the
          > family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).
          >
          > Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative
          > (mother,
          > M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
          > water, convenience, care of other children.
          >
          > I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations
          > in
          > the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude
          > that
          > a family moved.
          >
          > Send instant messages to your online friends
          > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send
          > blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • helene cincebeaux
          Re House Numbers - they are so fascinating - while many villages have renumbered their homes the older people remember who lived where - getting a house number
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 5, 2007
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            Re House Numbers - they are so fascinating - while many villages have renumbered their homes the older people remember who lived where - getting a house number is like gold and even tho outdated can lead to the right ancestral homestead or plot.

            I found that often the oldest homes clustered around the church, except for villages that had wooden churches - those were often located on a hill outside the village to protect from fires.

            We were also told that people took their house number with them when they moved which explains the chaotic state of many villages and their house numbers - 2 can be next to 753.

            Once spent half a day looking for a family - turns out half the village had the same surname and everyone kept asking us for their "nick name".

            helene


            Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
            I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions were so abject that
            the entire house collapsed and the people simply "moved down the street" and
            built a new house. (Houses were sometimes "renumbered", or simply listed in
            sequential order, which is one reason I don't care to follow any number
            used.)

            Bill


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Alan Antoska [mailto:aantoska@...]
            Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:42 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

            Michael,

            --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

            > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the
            > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
            > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
            > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
            > etc.

            I too have seen different birth locations within a family
            BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the
            family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).

            Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative (mother,
            M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
            water, convenience, care of other children.

            I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations in
            the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude that
            a family moved.

            Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

            To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            Yahoo! Groups Links






            ---------------------------------
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            Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • bemimitwo@aol.com
            HI All, I was told house numbers were handed out as houses were built ! First house number one and second house number two. Third house three even if it was
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 5, 2007
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              HI All,
              I was told house numbers were handed out as houses were built !
              First house number one and second house number two.
              Third house three even if it was built next to number one.
              It could have been the seventh house that could have been built next to house
              number two.
              This i was told by an elder of mine from kuzelov cz.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • david1law@aol.com
              Dear Bill: While I can understand that in certain instances, house numbers may be unreliable. I have also found in my research where certain house number was
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 5, 2007
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                Dear Bill:

                While I can understand that in certain instances, house numbers may be
                unreliable. I have also found in my research where certain house number was
                basically consistent and proved to be a valuable piece of information. As AANTOSKA
                well put it, the house number may even tip the scales of probability in
                favor of a certain connection. The use of house numbers was especially helpful
                when I was researching my ONDERCSIN line and in working on the cluster
                genealogy of the whole family clan. I found that in the course of my research that
                in this particular village -- KALAVA in SPIS -- the house numbers were
                basically consistent with one branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in KALAVA NO. 8
                (sometimes No. 9 or 12), another branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in KALAVA
                NO. 16 (sometimes No. 17), and another third branch of the ONDERCSIN clan
                living in KALAVA NO. 20 (sometimes No. 22). The slight variations in the house
                numbers were accounted for by other evidence -- namely, where the slight
                variation occurred in the house number, the names of the godparents of the
                children in each of the respective branches remained basically the same (i.e. the
                pattern was either identical or very close) to show that there was in fact a
                relationship. Lastly, and the reason why I write is that a living cousin of
                mine and I were able to establish that we were in fact related, as both of
                our ONDERCSIN ancestors lived in the same exact house -- KALAVA NO. 8, and in
                this particular case, the house numbers were reliable, as other information
                helped to corroborate the connection. I agree with AANTOSKA that the house
                number should be used carefully. I would also advise all researchers not to
                jump to any conclusions by a house number alone, but would encourage all
                researchers to document the house numbers of their ancestors as it is an additional
                detail -- as additional clue -- that may prove help them in their
                genealogical research endeavors. I would also encourage all researchers to detail the
                godparents for each child, and this has often revealed a pattern where the
                same godparents were used repeatedly by the parents for each of their children.
                House numbers alone, like any other piece of information, may not be
                reliable by themselves, but if corroborated by other information, the house numbers
                can be under certain circumstances a reliable piece of evidence. In any
                event, I would encourage all researchers once that they have found the initial
                information regarding their ancestors to double check all of the records and to
                do a cluster genealogy of the whole clan. It may seem like a lot of work at
                first, but I have found that it is a more systematic approach to research
                and therefore provides a greater degree of accuracy.


                Best regards,


                David


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bill Tarkulich
                David and all, Certainly you all could be very correct and I congratulate you in your success. Being and engineer by training and a skeptic from genealogicial
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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                  David and all,
                  Certainly you all could be very correct and I congratulate you in your
                  success. Being and engineer by training and a skeptic from genealogicial
                  experience (till proven with sufficient data), I would be interested in
                  seeing a profile with regards to where these house numbers are found to be
                  reliable?
                  = specific counties, region, east/west?
                  - large cities, towns or villages
                  - periods of time
                  - type of documents from which house numbers were derrived

                  If someone would like to embark on an anecdotal survey, it would be
                  interesting to see the trends. Every generalization begets exceptions.
                  It would be useful to collect a bunch of data points and see if any trends
                  emerge.

                  bill


                  On Tue, February 6, 2007 2:48 am, david1law@... wrote:
                  > Dear Bill:
                  >
                  > While I can understand that in certain instances, house numbers may be
                  > unreliable. I have also found in my research where certain house number
                  > was
                  > basically consistent and proved to be a valuable piece of information. As
                  > AANTOSKA
                  > well put it, the house number may even tip the scales of probability in
                  > favor of a certain connection. The use of house numbers was especially
                  > helpful
                  > when I was researching my ONDERCSIN line and in working on the cluster
                  > genealogy of the whole family clan. I found that in the course of my
                  > research that
                  > in this particular village -- KALAVA in SPIS -- the house numbers were
                  > basically consistent with one branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in
                  > KALAVA NO. 8
                  > (sometimes No. 9 or 12), another branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in
                  > KALAVA
                  > NO. 16 (sometimes No. 17), and another third branch of the ONDERCSIN clan
                  > living in KALAVA NO. 20 (sometimes No. 22). The slight variations in the
                  > house
                  > numbers were accounted for by other evidence -- namely, where the slight
                  > variation occurred in the house number, the names of the godparents of
                  > the
                  > children in each of the respective branches remained basically the same
                  > (i.e. the
                  > pattern was either identical or very close) to show that there was in
                  > fact a
                  > relationship. Lastly, and the reason why I write is that a living cousin
                  > of
                  > mine and I were able to establish that we were in fact related, as both
                  > of
                  > our ONDERCSIN ancestors lived in the same exact house -- KALAVA NO. 8,
                  > and in
                  > this particular case, the house numbers were reliable, as other
                  > information
                  > helped to corroborate the connection. I agree with AANTOSKA that the
                  > house
                  > number should be used carefully. I would also advise all researchers not
                  > to
                  > jump to any conclusions by a house number alone, but would encourage all
                  > researchers to document the house numbers of their ancestors as it is an
                  > additional
                  > detail -- as additional clue -- that may prove help them in their
                  > genealogical research endeavors. I would also encourage all researchers
                  > to detail the
                  > godparents for each child, and this has often revealed a pattern where
                  > the
                  > same godparents were used repeatedly by the parents for each of their
                  > children.
                  > House numbers alone, like any other piece of information, may not be
                  > reliable by themselves, but if corroborated by other information, the
                  > house numbers
                  > can be under certain circumstances a reliable piece of evidence. In any
                  > event, I would encourage all researchers once that they have found the
                  > initial
                  > information regarding their ancestors to double check all of the records
                  > and to
                  > do a cluster genealogy of the whole clan. It may seem like a lot of work
                  > at
                  > first, but I have found that it is a more systematic approach to research
                  > and therefore provides a greater degree of accuracy.
                  >
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  >
                  > David
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Bill Tarkulich
                  http://www.iabsi.com
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