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Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

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  • david1law@aol.com
    Hi Adrienne: In regard to movement from village to village, the majority usually involve moving to an adjacent village, usually because of marriage. There
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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      Hi Adrienne:

      In regard to movement from village to village, the majority usually involve
      moving to an adjacent village, usually because of marriage. There are,
      however, many instances in which the movement was from a far greater distance.
      For example, in the SIROKE parish in SARIS County (Saris Highlands west of
      Presov) in the 1800's, I have seen on the same page of the church records where
      the respective fathers of two children were both from GALICIA. In addition,
      movement can also occur depending on the person's occupation. On my
      grandmother's side of the family, I've seen movement from ROZNAVA (GEMER) to STARY
      SMOKOVEC (Spis - High Tatras) to DOMANOVCE (Spis - near Spis Castle) and back to
      STARY SMOKOVEC (High Tatras).

      With regard to the same surname being in the village in the 1715 Hungarian
      Census and also being found in the church records in the 1800's, they are most
      likely from the same family clan, and perhaps the person listed in the 1715
      Hungarian Census may even be the patriarch of the family. I have been
      working on one line of my ancestry -- KOVALCIK -- in the early 1700's (just after
      the 1715 Hungarian Census) and it appears at the moment that one couple --
      PAULUS KOVALTSIK and ANNA TKAACZ (TKACS) -- who lived in the village of SLATVINA
      in the early 1700's were the ancestors of the entire KOVALCIK family clan in
      that village.

      Best regards,

      David


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alan Antoska
      Michael, ... I too have seen different birth locations within a family BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the family) temporarily relocated
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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        Michael,

        --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

        > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the
        > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
        > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
        > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
        > etc.

        I too have seen different birth locations within a family
        BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the
        family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).

        Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative (mother,
        M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
        water, convenience, care of other children.

        I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations in
        the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude that
        a family moved.

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      • Bill Tarkulich
        I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions were so abject that the entire house collapsed and the people simply moved down the street and built a
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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          I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions were so abject that
          the entire house collapsed and the people simply "moved down the street" and
          built a new house. (Houses were sometimes "renumbered", or simply listed in
          sequential order, which is one reason I don't care to follow any number
          used.)


          Bill


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Alan Antoska [mailto:aantoska@...]
          Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:42 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

          Michael,

          --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

          > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the
          > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
          > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
          > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
          > etc.

          I too have seen different birth locations within a family
          BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the
          family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).

          Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative (mother,
          M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
          water, convenience, care of other children.

          I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations in
          the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude that
          a family moved.

          Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


          To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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        • Alan Antoska
          Bill, now you re being too hasty. :-) House numbers, are an excellent guide . We have too few clues as is, to dismiss them completely. Judicious use of house
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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            Bill, now you're being too hasty. :-)

            House numbers, are an excellent 'guide'. We have too few
            clues as is, to dismiss them completely. Judicious use of
            house numbers does reveal a pattern, and, in my research
            house numbers have both tipped the scales of probability
            and added to my list of unanswered questions.

            But as a guide, used judiciously, and presuming the scribe
            got them right, I for one, "luv 'em".
            cheers

            --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

            > I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions
            > were so abject that
            > the entire house collapsed and the people simply "moved
            > down the street" and
            > built a new house. (Houses were sometimes "renumbered",
            > or simply listed in
            > sequential order, which is one reason I don't care to
            > follow any number
            > used.)
            >
            >
            > Bill
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Alan Antoska [mailto:aantoska@...]
            > Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:42 PM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's
            >
            > Michael,
            >
            > --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:
            >
            > > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in
            > the
            > > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
            > > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
            > > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
            > > etc.
            >
            > I too have seen different birth locations within a family
            > BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not
            > the
            > family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).
            >
            > Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative
            > (mother,
            > M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
            > water, convenience, care of other children.
            >
            > I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations
            > in
            > the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude
            > that
            > a family moved.
            >
            > Send instant messages to your online friends
            > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send
            > blank email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


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          • helene cincebeaux
            Re House Numbers - they are so fascinating - while many villages have renumbered their homes the older people remember who lived where - getting a house number
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 5, 2007
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              Re House Numbers - they are so fascinating - while many villages have renumbered their homes the older people remember who lived where - getting a house number is like gold and even tho outdated can lead to the right ancestral homestead or plot.

              I found that often the oldest homes clustered around the church, except for villages that had wooden churches - those were often located on a hill outside the village to protect from fires.

              We were also told that people took their house number with them when they moved which explains the chaotic state of many villages and their house numbers - 2 can be next to 753.

              Once spent half a day looking for a family - turns out half the village had the same surname and everyone kept asking us for their "nick name".

              helene


              Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
              I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions were so abject that
              the entire house collapsed and the people simply "moved down the street" and
              built a new house. (Houses were sometimes "renumbered", or simply listed in
              sequential order, which is one reason I don't care to follow any number
              used.)

              Bill


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Alan Antoska [mailto:aantoska@...]
              Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:42 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

              Michael,

              --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

              > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the
              > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
              > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
              > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
              > etc.

              I too have seen different birth locations within a family
              BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the
              family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).

              Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative (mother,
              M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
              water, convenience, care of other children.

              I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations in
              the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude that
              a family moved.

              Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

              To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              Yahoo! Groups Links






              ---------------------------------
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              Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • bemimitwo@aol.com
              HI All, I was told house numbers were handed out as houses were built ! First house number one and second house number two. Third house three even if it was
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 5, 2007
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                HI All,
                I was told house numbers were handed out as houses were built !
                First house number one and second house number two.
                Third house three even if it was built next to number one.
                It could have been the seventh house that could have been built next to house
                number two.
                This i was told by an elder of mine from kuzelov cz.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • david1law@aol.com
                Dear Bill: While I can understand that in certain instances, house numbers may be unreliable. I have also found in my research where certain house number was
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 5, 2007
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                  Dear Bill:

                  While I can understand that in certain instances, house numbers may be
                  unreliable. I have also found in my research where certain house number was
                  basically consistent and proved to be a valuable piece of information. As AANTOSKA
                  well put it, the house number may even tip the scales of probability in
                  favor of a certain connection. The use of house numbers was especially helpful
                  when I was researching my ONDERCSIN line and in working on the cluster
                  genealogy of the whole family clan. I found that in the course of my research that
                  in this particular village -- KALAVA in SPIS -- the house numbers were
                  basically consistent with one branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in KALAVA NO. 8
                  (sometimes No. 9 or 12), another branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in KALAVA
                  NO. 16 (sometimes No. 17), and another third branch of the ONDERCSIN clan
                  living in KALAVA NO. 20 (sometimes No. 22). The slight variations in the house
                  numbers were accounted for by other evidence -- namely, where the slight
                  variation occurred in the house number, the names of the godparents of the
                  children in each of the respective branches remained basically the same (i.e. the
                  pattern was either identical or very close) to show that there was in fact a
                  relationship. Lastly, and the reason why I write is that a living cousin of
                  mine and I were able to establish that we were in fact related, as both of
                  our ONDERCSIN ancestors lived in the same exact house -- KALAVA NO. 8, and in
                  this particular case, the house numbers were reliable, as other information
                  helped to corroborate the connection. I agree with AANTOSKA that the house
                  number should be used carefully. I would also advise all researchers not to
                  jump to any conclusions by a house number alone, but would encourage all
                  researchers to document the house numbers of their ancestors as it is an additional
                  detail -- as additional clue -- that may prove help them in their
                  genealogical research endeavors. I would also encourage all researchers to detail the
                  godparents for each child, and this has often revealed a pattern where the
                  same godparents were used repeatedly by the parents for each of their children.
                  House numbers alone, like any other piece of information, may not be
                  reliable by themselves, but if corroborated by other information, the house numbers
                  can be under certain circumstances a reliable piece of evidence. In any
                  event, I would encourage all researchers once that they have found the initial
                  information regarding their ancestors to double check all of the records and to
                  do a cluster genealogy of the whole clan. It may seem like a lot of work at
                  first, but I have found that it is a more systematic approach to research
                  and therefore provides a greater degree of accuracy.


                  Best regards,


                  David


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bill Tarkulich
                  David and all, Certainly you all could be very correct and I congratulate you in your success. Being and engineer by training and a skeptic from genealogicial
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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                    David and all,
                    Certainly you all could be very correct and I congratulate you in your
                    success. Being and engineer by training and a skeptic from genealogicial
                    experience (till proven with sufficient data), I would be interested in
                    seeing a profile with regards to where these house numbers are found to be
                    reliable?
                    = specific counties, region, east/west?
                    - large cities, towns or villages
                    - periods of time
                    - type of documents from which house numbers were derrived

                    If someone would like to embark on an anecdotal survey, it would be
                    interesting to see the trends. Every generalization begets exceptions.
                    It would be useful to collect a bunch of data points and see if any trends
                    emerge.

                    bill


                    On Tue, February 6, 2007 2:48 am, david1law@... wrote:
                    > Dear Bill:
                    >
                    > While I can understand that in certain instances, house numbers may be
                    > unreliable. I have also found in my research where certain house number
                    > was
                    > basically consistent and proved to be a valuable piece of information. As
                    > AANTOSKA
                    > well put it, the house number may even tip the scales of probability in
                    > favor of a certain connection. The use of house numbers was especially
                    > helpful
                    > when I was researching my ONDERCSIN line and in working on the cluster
                    > genealogy of the whole family clan. I found that in the course of my
                    > research that
                    > in this particular village -- KALAVA in SPIS -- the house numbers were
                    > basically consistent with one branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in
                    > KALAVA NO. 8
                    > (sometimes No. 9 or 12), another branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in
                    > KALAVA
                    > NO. 16 (sometimes No. 17), and another third branch of the ONDERCSIN clan
                    > living in KALAVA NO. 20 (sometimes No. 22). The slight variations in the
                    > house
                    > numbers were accounted for by other evidence -- namely, where the slight
                    > variation occurred in the house number, the names of the godparents of
                    > the
                    > children in each of the respective branches remained basically the same
                    > (i.e. the
                    > pattern was either identical or very close) to show that there was in
                    > fact a
                    > relationship. Lastly, and the reason why I write is that a living cousin
                    > of
                    > mine and I were able to establish that we were in fact related, as both
                    > of
                    > our ONDERCSIN ancestors lived in the same exact house -- KALAVA NO. 8,
                    > and in
                    > this particular case, the house numbers were reliable, as other
                    > information
                    > helped to corroborate the connection. I agree with AANTOSKA that the
                    > house
                    > number should be used carefully. I would also advise all researchers not
                    > to
                    > jump to any conclusions by a house number alone, but would encourage all
                    > researchers to document the house numbers of their ancestors as it is an
                    > additional
                    > detail -- as additional clue -- that may prove help them in their
                    > genealogical research endeavors. I would also encourage all researchers
                    > to detail the
                    > godparents for each child, and this has often revealed a pattern where
                    > the
                    > same godparents were used repeatedly by the parents for each of their
                    > children.
                    > House numbers alone, like any other piece of information, may not be
                    > reliable by themselves, but if corroborated by other information, the
                    > house numbers
                    > can be under certain circumstances a reliable piece of evidence. In any
                    > event, I would encourage all researchers once that they have found the
                    > initial
                    > information regarding their ancestors to double check all of the records
                    > and to
                    > do a cluster genealogy of the whole clan. It may seem like a lot of work
                    > at
                    > first, but I have found that it is a more systematic approach to research
                    > and therefore provides a greater degree of accuracy.
                    >
                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    >
                    >
                    > David
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                    > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                    > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Bill Tarkulich
                    http://www.iabsi.com
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