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RE: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

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  • Janet Kozlay
    In my experience, you find both kinds of movement, both small and great. During the period of the Ottoman Empire in Hungary, vast areas became totally
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 4, 2007
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      In my experience, you find both kinds of movement, both small and great.
      During the period of the Ottoman Empire in Hungary, vast areas became
      totally deserted. When the Turks were finally expelled, many people moved to
      the previously unpopulated regions. I have found many families from Upper
      Hungary, now Slovakia, who moved south, hundreds of miles away, especially
      during the 1700s.



      Janet



      _____

      From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Adrienne Sowards
      Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:18 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's



      I realize I'm asking for a lot of speculation, but I'm wondering about the
      generalities. I know each family is different.

      How often would families move from one village to another in the
      1700-1800's? If they did move, would it generally be to a village a few
      miles away, or would some families make a big move to a village hundreds of
      miles away?

      I've been going over the 1715 census, and so far I've only found one surname

      in the same village that they were still in in the mid-1800's. So far I'm
      going thru each village in Saros, which has been a bit time consuming.

      Just curious!

      Thanks,
      Adrienne

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    • Bill Tarkulich
      Julie is right-on the mark. She s addressing the right question. Census 1715 is not a population census. It is a property census. It shows the property
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 4, 2007
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        Julie is right-on the mark. She's addressing the right question.

        Census 1715 is not a population census. It is a property census. It shows
        the property owners and sometimes head of household. This is during serfdom
        period - before the 1848 emancipation of serfs/peasants. Households tended
        to be quite large - tons of people under one roof in peasant villages.
        Census were to inventory taxable property only. *sometimes* non-property
        owners (men) were listed when head of household, but not consistently.

        In my village, no Tarkulic' were listed on the early census, even though I
        know from other evidence they did exist. You are better off following back
        the CHURCH records, this is probably the only written records of peasants
        b/m/d. In this region, church records before the early 1700s are not very
        common although having been ordered by the Hungary government in the 1500s.
        Adoption of this decree was quickest in the cities and town (often 1500s
        records are found), slowest in the rural hinterlands (early 1700s is
        typical).


        Now, onto "Reasons for Movement", a tangential discussion.

        1. Many factors came into play, it's difficult to make generalizations.
        As Thomas, Janet and David have noted, the Ottomans and the action of
        property owners in the 1700s to establish villages were the largest reasons
        for population transfers.

        2. Towns and cities had a very different dynamics. Cities had factors of
        self-defense relative affluence, existence of craftsmen and tradesmen, and
        centers of political influence. Villages, primarily established and owned
        by private landholders usually had none of the above.

        3. Villages were subject to different influences depending on where they
        were located eastern Slovakia has historically been economically poorer than
        west.

        If I had to make a generalization, I'd say: a) that those who lived in/near
        cities/towns or near major transportation routes were often the most mobile,
        followed by b) certain occupations such as tradesmen (often Jews), shepards,
        craftsmen. Lastly, land-bound rural peasants were the least mobile (in debt
        to the landowner). As always, exceptions apply.

        In summary, when seeking out reasons for your village, it is important to
        study the history of your village. If you don't have a copy of the village
        description from "mesta a obce" (a brief couple paragraph summary in
        Slovak), I'm happy to email to anyone who asks.

        Bill


        -----Original Message-----
        From: J. Michutka [mailto:jmm@...]
        Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:53 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

        At 01:18 PM 2/4/2007, you wrote:

        >How often would families move from one village to another in the
        >1700-1800's? ...
        >I've been going over the 1715 census, and so far I've only found one
        surname
        >in the same village that they were still in in the mid-1800's.

        This may be the blind leading the blind here, and I hope someone more
        knowledgeable will jump in--I just found out about these records
        myself a week ago. According to Bill Tarkulich's site about the census:
        "This is a "Urbarim Register" (possession inventory) for the Feudal
        Estates. It includes a listing of all village heads of household who
        owned property and its description. ...Not very useful for genealogy
        (family tree) research. "
        So, it sounds like if a person wasn't head of household or a property
        owner, they wouldn't show up. Doesn't necessarily mean they weren't there.

        Julie Michutka
        jmm@...



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      • Adrienne Sowards
        Thanks for everybody s comments and ideas about family movement in the 1700 and 1800 s. Lots of good points and information! Funny how I consider sitting down
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 5, 2007
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          Thanks for everybody's comments and ideas about family movement in the 1700
          and 1800's. Lots of good points and information!

          Funny how I consider sitting down and clicking through every village in
          Saros "tedious." Twenty years ago it would have been miraculous and speedy!

          Anyone else searching the name "Krajczer" out there? They were from Lipany
          (Hethars) and at least they seemed to own some land!

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        • Bill Tarkulich
          Yes. We ve come a long way. Now we pickup the phone (or have someone do it for us) and talk to the family, rather than write a letter, wait months if ever
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 5, 2007
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            Yes. We've come a long way. Now we pickup the phone (or have someone do
            it for us) and talk to the family, rather than write a letter, wait months
            if ever for a reply. The other startling thing is that we see the church
            records long before the cousins in Slovakia - they still don't have easy
            access.


            On Mon, February 5, 2007 4:43 pm, Adrienne Sowards wrote:
            > Thanks for everybody's comments and ideas about family movement in the
            > 1700
            > and 1800's. Lots of good points and information!
            >
            > Funny how I consider sitting down and clicking through every village in
            > Saros "tedious." Twenty years ago it would have been miraculous and
            > speedy!
            >
            > Anyone else searching the name "Krajczer" out there? They were from
            > Lipany
            > (Hethars) and at least they seemed to own some land!
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Valentine’s Day -- Shop for gifts that spell L-O-V-E at MSN Shopping
            > http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8323,ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24095&tcode=wlmtagline
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Bill Tarkulich
            http://www.iabsi.com
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