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Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

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  • Michael Mojher
    Adrienne, From my search on both sides of my family I have found two kinds of movement. With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the records how often
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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      Adrienne,
      From my search on both sides of my family I have found two kinds of movement.
      With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the records how often families moved. Often back and forth between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth records. One born at an address, the next at another, etc.
      Their movement was either within the village or too another a couple of miles away. From my readings it was said that during 1700 and 1800's it was more than likely that people did not travel more than 10 miles from their village in their lifetimes.
      My maternal side showed that there could be moves of some distance. Both of my great grandparents were listed as being servants. Like you I tried to locate their original village by searching outwards from where my grandfather was born.
      I contacted a genealogy researcher in Slovakia for help. He explained that I was going to have a hard time finding where my great grandparents were from. Servants, especially good ones, were lured away by better offers. Without some documentation of the new location finding them would be pure luck.
      As you pointed out, any move is going to be done by an individuals need. It would appear that their occupations might be a factor in how far the move was.
      Michael Mojher
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adrienne Sowards
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 10:18 AM
      Subject: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's


      I realize I'm asking for a lot of speculation, but I'm wondering about the
      generalities. I know each family is different.

      How often would families move from one village to another in the
      1700-1800's? If they did move, would it generally be to a village a few
      miles away, or would some families make a big move to a village hundreds of
      miles away?

      I've been going over the 1715 census, and so far I've only found one surname
      in the same village that they were still in in the mid-1800's. So far I'm
      going thru each village in Saros, which has been a bit time consuming.

      Just curious!

      Thanks,
      Adrienne

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    • david1law@aol.com
      Hi Adrienne: In regard to movement from village to village, the majority usually involve moving to an adjacent village, usually because of marriage. There
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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        Hi Adrienne:

        In regard to movement from village to village, the majority usually involve
        moving to an adjacent village, usually because of marriage. There are,
        however, many instances in which the movement was from a far greater distance.
        For example, in the SIROKE parish in SARIS County (Saris Highlands west of
        Presov) in the 1800's, I have seen on the same page of the church records where
        the respective fathers of two children were both from GALICIA. In addition,
        movement can also occur depending on the person's occupation. On my
        grandmother's side of the family, I've seen movement from ROZNAVA (GEMER) to STARY
        SMOKOVEC (Spis - High Tatras) to DOMANOVCE (Spis - near Spis Castle) and back to
        STARY SMOKOVEC (High Tatras).

        With regard to the same surname being in the village in the 1715 Hungarian
        Census and also being found in the church records in the 1800's, they are most
        likely from the same family clan, and perhaps the person listed in the 1715
        Hungarian Census may even be the patriarch of the family. I have been
        working on one line of my ancestry -- KOVALCIK -- in the early 1700's (just after
        the 1715 Hungarian Census) and it appears at the moment that one couple --
        PAULUS KOVALTSIK and ANNA TKAACZ (TKACS) -- who lived in the village of SLATVINA
        in the early 1700's were the ancestors of the entire KOVALCIK family clan in
        that village.

        Best regards,

        David


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alan Antoska
        Michael, ... I too have seen different birth locations within a family BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the family) temporarily relocated
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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          Michael,

          --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

          > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the
          > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
          > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
          > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
          > etc.

          I too have seen different birth locations within a family
          BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the
          family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).

          Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative (mother,
          M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
          water, convenience, care of other children.

          I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations in
          the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude that
          a family moved.

          Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
        • Bill Tarkulich
          I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions were so abject that the entire house collapsed and the people simply moved down the street and built a
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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            I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions were so abject that
            the entire house collapsed and the people simply "moved down the street" and
            built a new house. (Houses were sometimes "renumbered", or simply listed in
            sequential order, which is one reason I don't care to follow any number
            used.)


            Bill


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Alan Antoska [mailto:aantoska@...]
            Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:42 PM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

            Michael,

            --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

            > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the
            > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
            > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
            > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
            > etc.

            I too have seen different birth locations within a family
            BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the
            family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).

            Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative (mother,
            M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
            water, convenience, care of other children.

            I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations in
            the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude that
            a family moved.

            Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


            To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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          • Alan Antoska
            Bill, now you re being too hasty. :-) House numbers, are an excellent guide . We have too few clues as is, to dismiss them completely. Judicious use of house
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 4, 2007
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              Bill, now you're being too hasty. :-)

              House numbers, are an excellent 'guide'. We have too few
              clues as is, to dismiss them completely. Judicious use of
              house numbers does reveal a pattern, and, in my research
              house numbers have both tipped the scales of probability
              and added to my list of unanswered questions.

              But as a guide, used judiciously, and presuming the scribe
              got them right, I for one, "luv 'em".
              cheers

              --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

              > I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions
              > were so abject that
              > the entire house collapsed and the people simply "moved
              > down the street" and
              > built a new house. (Houses were sometimes "renumbered",
              > or simply listed in
              > sequential order, which is one reason I don't care to
              > follow any number
              > used.)
              >
              >
              > Bill
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Alan Antoska [mailto:aantoska@...]
              > Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:42 PM
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's
              >
              > Michael,
              >
              > --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:
              >
              > > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in
              > the
              > > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
              > > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
              > > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
              > > etc.
              >
              > I too have seen different birth locations within a family
              > BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not
              > the
              > family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).
              >
              > Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative
              > (mother,
              > M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
              > water, convenience, care of other children.
              >
              > I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations
              > in
              > the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude
              > that
              > a family moved.
              >
              > Send instant messages to your online friends
              > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send
              > blank email to
              > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • helene cincebeaux
              Re House Numbers - they are so fascinating - while many villages have renumbered their homes the older people remember who lived where - getting a house number
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 5, 2007
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                Re House Numbers - they are so fascinating - while many villages have renumbered their homes the older people remember who lived where - getting a house number is like gold and even tho outdated can lead to the right ancestral homestead or plot.

                I found that often the oldest homes clustered around the church, except for villages that had wooden churches - those were often located on a hill outside the village to protect from fires.

                We were also told that people took their house number with them when they moved which explains the chaotic state of many villages and their house numbers - 2 can be next to 753.

                Once spent half a day looking for a family - turns out half the village had the same surname and everyone kept asking us for their "nick name".

                helene


                Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                I agree with Alan. In some cases, housing conditions were so abject that
                the entire house collapsed and the people simply "moved down the street" and
                built a new house. (Houses were sometimes "renumbered", or simply listed in
                sequential order, which is one reason I don't care to follow any number
                used.)

                Bill


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Alan Antoska [mailto:aantoska@...]
                Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:42 PM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Family Movement - 1700's

                Michael,

                --- Michael Mojher <mgmojher@...> wrote:

                > With my paternal side I was surprised to find in the
                > records how often families moved. Often back and forth
                > between addresses. I spotted the movement in the birth
                > records. One born at an address, the next at another,
                > etc.

                I too have seen different birth locations within a family
                BUT I interpret this to mean the expectant mother (not the
                family) temporarily relocated just for the birth(s).

                Possible reasons; to receive care from a relative (mother,
                M.I.L., aunt) to be nearer to the stara baba mid-wife,
                water, convenience, care of other children.

                I am guessing but in my mind, different birth locations in
                the same village is insufficient evidence to conclude that
                a family moved.

                Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                Yahoo! Groups Links






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              • bemimitwo@aol.com
                HI All, I was told house numbers were handed out as houses were built ! First house number one and second house number two. Third house three even if it was
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 5, 2007
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                  HI All,
                  I was told house numbers were handed out as houses were built !
                  First house number one and second house number two.
                  Third house three even if it was built next to number one.
                  It could have been the seventh house that could have been built next to house
                  number two.
                  This i was told by an elder of mine from kuzelov cz.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • david1law@aol.com
                  Dear Bill: While I can understand that in certain instances, house numbers may be unreliable. I have also found in my research where certain house number was
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 5, 2007
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                    Dear Bill:

                    While I can understand that in certain instances, house numbers may be
                    unreliable. I have also found in my research where certain house number was
                    basically consistent and proved to be a valuable piece of information. As AANTOSKA
                    well put it, the house number may even tip the scales of probability in
                    favor of a certain connection. The use of house numbers was especially helpful
                    when I was researching my ONDERCSIN line and in working on the cluster
                    genealogy of the whole family clan. I found that in the course of my research that
                    in this particular village -- KALAVA in SPIS -- the house numbers were
                    basically consistent with one branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in KALAVA NO. 8
                    (sometimes No. 9 or 12), another branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in KALAVA
                    NO. 16 (sometimes No. 17), and another third branch of the ONDERCSIN clan
                    living in KALAVA NO. 20 (sometimes No. 22). The slight variations in the house
                    numbers were accounted for by other evidence -- namely, where the slight
                    variation occurred in the house number, the names of the godparents of the
                    children in each of the respective branches remained basically the same (i.e. the
                    pattern was either identical or very close) to show that there was in fact a
                    relationship. Lastly, and the reason why I write is that a living cousin of
                    mine and I were able to establish that we were in fact related, as both of
                    our ONDERCSIN ancestors lived in the same exact house -- KALAVA NO. 8, and in
                    this particular case, the house numbers were reliable, as other information
                    helped to corroborate the connection. I agree with AANTOSKA that the house
                    number should be used carefully. I would also advise all researchers not to
                    jump to any conclusions by a house number alone, but would encourage all
                    researchers to document the house numbers of their ancestors as it is an additional
                    detail -- as additional clue -- that may prove help them in their
                    genealogical research endeavors. I would also encourage all researchers to detail the
                    godparents for each child, and this has often revealed a pattern where the
                    same godparents were used repeatedly by the parents for each of their children.
                    House numbers alone, like any other piece of information, may not be
                    reliable by themselves, but if corroborated by other information, the house numbers
                    can be under certain circumstances a reliable piece of evidence. In any
                    event, I would encourage all researchers once that they have found the initial
                    information regarding their ancestors to double check all of the records and to
                    do a cluster genealogy of the whole clan. It may seem like a lot of work at
                    first, but I have found that it is a more systematic approach to research
                    and therefore provides a greater degree of accuracy.


                    Best regards,


                    David


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bill Tarkulich
                    David and all, Certainly you all could be very correct and I congratulate you in your success. Being and engineer by training and a skeptic from genealogicial
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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                      David and all,
                      Certainly you all could be very correct and I congratulate you in your
                      success. Being and engineer by training and a skeptic from genealogicial
                      experience (till proven with sufficient data), I would be interested in
                      seeing a profile with regards to where these house numbers are found to be
                      reliable?
                      = specific counties, region, east/west?
                      - large cities, towns or villages
                      - periods of time
                      - type of documents from which house numbers were derrived

                      If someone would like to embark on an anecdotal survey, it would be
                      interesting to see the trends. Every generalization begets exceptions.
                      It would be useful to collect a bunch of data points and see if any trends
                      emerge.

                      bill


                      On Tue, February 6, 2007 2:48 am, david1law@... wrote:
                      > Dear Bill:
                      >
                      > While I can understand that in certain instances, house numbers may be
                      > unreliable. I have also found in my research where certain house number
                      > was
                      > basically consistent and proved to be a valuable piece of information. As
                      > AANTOSKA
                      > well put it, the house number may even tip the scales of probability in
                      > favor of a certain connection. The use of house numbers was especially
                      > helpful
                      > when I was researching my ONDERCSIN line and in working on the cluster
                      > genealogy of the whole family clan. I found that in the course of my
                      > research that
                      > in this particular village -- KALAVA in SPIS -- the house numbers were
                      > basically consistent with one branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in
                      > KALAVA NO. 8
                      > (sometimes No. 9 or 12), another branch of the ONDERCSIN clan living in
                      > KALAVA
                      > NO. 16 (sometimes No. 17), and another third branch of the ONDERCSIN clan
                      > living in KALAVA NO. 20 (sometimes No. 22). The slight variations in the
                      > house
                      > numbers were accounted for by other evidence -- namely, where the slight
                      > variation occurred in the house number, the names of the godparents of
                      > the
                      > children in each of the respective branches remained basically the same
                      > (i.e. the
                      > pattern was either identical or very close) to show that there was in
                      > fact a
                      > relationship. Lastly, and the reason why I write is that a living cousin
                      > of
                      > mine and I were able to establish that we were in fact related, as both
                      > of
                      > our ONDERCSIN ancestors lived in the same exact house -- KALAVA NO. 8,
                      > and in
                      > this particular case, the house numbers were reliable, as other
                      > information
                      > helped to corroborate the connection. I agree with AANTOSKA that the
                      > house
                      > number should be used carefully. I would also advise all researchers not
                      > to
                      > jump to any conclusions by a house number alone, but would encourage all
                      > researchers to document the house numbers of their ancestors as it is an
                      > additional
                      > detail -- as additional clue -- that may prove help them in their
                      > genealogical research endeavors. I would also encourage all researchers
                      > to detail the
                      > godparents for each child, and this has often revealed a pattern where
                      > the
                      > same godparents were used repeatedly by the parents for each of their
                      > children.
                      > House numbers alone, like any other piece of information, may not be
                      > reliable by themselves, but if corroborated by other information, the
                      > house numbers
                      > can be under certain circumstances a reliable piece of evidence. In any
                      > event, I would encourage all researchers once that they have found the
                      > initial
                      > information regarding their ancestors to double check all of the records
                      > and to
                      > do a cluster genealogy of the whole clan. It may seem like a lot of work
                      > at
                      > first, but I have found that it is a more systematic approach to research
                      > and therefore provides a greater degree of accuracy.
                      >
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      >
                      > David
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      Bill Tarkulich
                      http://www.iabsi.com
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