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Re: Doubts about church records KOKAVA

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  • J. Michutka
    ... If you like, I can scan and email to you the entry from this town from Vlastivedny Slovak Obci na Slovensku; it indicates that the population of Kokava nad
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 1, 2007
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      >
      >
      >- I cannot tell you the population at that time
      >because I still haven't received the census
      >microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living
      >there. So, yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were
      >less than 1,000 inhabitants. Concerning the
      >number of churches: "The others sacral monuments
      >are Roman Catholic church from 1820, chapel at
      >Kukucínová street from 1847 and Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).


      If you like, I can scan and email to you the
      entry from this town from Vlastivedny Slovak Obci
      na Slovensku; it indicates that the population of
      Kokava nad Rimavicou (which seems to include
      quite a few hamlets) was 3949 in 1869, 3314 in
      1880, 3661 in 1890, and it keeps growing from there.

      Julie Michutka
      jmm@...
    • Bill Tarkulich
      First, It s not strange to see records kind of cobbled together. In many churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the bishop. When
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together. In many
        churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
        bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
        came together in one place Again, not always.

        Second, different churches had different schemes for recording information,
        even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the contrary.
        Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
        records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
        start somewhere else.
        Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
        village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been lost,
        some misplaced, some misfiled.

        These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
        confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
        archives has.

        Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about it.
        Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
        archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
        the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
        church records you have found. Have you looked there?

        See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your other
        questions about how far back church records go.


        You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major event
        had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
        village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
        right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally before
        you try to cast your net too wide.
        If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger village
        or region can be helpful also.

        Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati )
        district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
        http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
        district was a village called Esztrény (see
        http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my opinion,
        doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
        abbreviation.


        Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
        "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
        Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
        sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a sample
        page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.

        You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
        I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to devote
        to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the questions
        coming, and remind me from time to time.

        Regards,


        Bill


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

        Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
        little information I have.

        -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
        from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are handwritten
        and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
        written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).

        -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
        jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
        priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I really
        don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
        perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
        doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many years.
        "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
        In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
        built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation but
        years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
        and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.

        - The records belong to the evangelical church.

        - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
        received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there. So,
        yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
        Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
        Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
        Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).

        -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
        have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.

        That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
        that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we get
        to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
        there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?

        Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
        Hugs from Argentina,
        Maria Eugenia Kromholc


        From: Bill Tarkulich
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
        Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA


        I'll take a shot at #1:
        1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
        followed
        by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
        does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
        don't
        match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
        mean?

        - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
        original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
        someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
        annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
        genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

        - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
        to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
        further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
        the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
        example, in the case of rape.

        - What religion are the records you examined?

        - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
        churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
        years ago.

        - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
        mother's birth record in the village?

        I can comment further when you provide the above info.

        Regards,
        Bill

        On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
        > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
        > was
        > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
        > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
        > parents weren't married.
        >
        >
        >
        > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
        > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
        > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
        was
        > a
        > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
        > "died"
        > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
        > one
        > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
        > infancy.
        >
        >
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
        > On
        > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi, everyone!
        > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
        > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
        >
        > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
        > followed
        > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
        what
        > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
        > don't
        > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
        > mean?
        >
        > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
        father's
        > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
        > only
        > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
        it
        > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
        or
        > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
        you
        > solve this mysteries?
        >
        > I would really like to read your opinions,
        > Thanks as always,
        >
        > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Bill Tarkulich
        http://www.iabsi.com





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      • christopher gajda
        Bill - do you happen to have any mesta a obce or other information about Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately, since
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
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          Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information about Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately, since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given access to archives.
          Thanks - Chris

          Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
          First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together. In many
          churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
          bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
          came together in one place Again, not always.

          Second, different churches had different schemes for recording information,
          even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the contrary.
          Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
          records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
          start somewhere else.
          Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
          village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been lost,
          some misplaced, some misfiled.

          These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
          confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
          archives has.

          Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about it.
          Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
          archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
          the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
          church records you have found. Have you looked there?

          See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your other
          questions about how far back church records go.

          You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major event
          had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
          village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
          right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally before
          you try to cast your net too wide.
          If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger village
          or region can be helpful also.

          Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati )
          district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
          http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
          district was a village called Esztrény (see
          http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my opinion,
          doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
          abbreviation.

          Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
          "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
          Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
          sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a sample
          page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.

          You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
          I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to devote
          to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the questions
          coming, and remind me from time to time.

          Regards,

          Bill


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

          Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
          little information I have.

          -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
          from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are handwritten
          and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
          written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).

          -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
          jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
          priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I really
          don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
          perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
          doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many years.
          "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
          In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
          built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation but
          years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
          and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.

          - The records belong to the evangelical church.

          - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
          received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there. So,
          yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
          Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
          Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
          Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).

          -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
          have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.

          That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
          that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we get
          to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
          there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?

          Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
          Hugs from Argentina,
          Maria Eugenia Kromholc

          From: Bill Tarkulich
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
          Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

          I'll take a shot at #1:
          1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
          followed
          by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
          does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
          don't
          match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
          mean?

          - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
          original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
          someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
          annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
          genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

          - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
          to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
          further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
          the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
          example, in the case of rape.

          - What religion are the records you examined?

          - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
          churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
          years ago.

          - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
          mother's birth record in the village?

          I can comment further when you provide the above info.

          Regards,
          Bill

          On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
          > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
          > was
          > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
          > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
          > parents weren't married.
          >
          >
          >
          > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
          > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
          > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
          was
          > a
          > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
          > "died"
          > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
          > one
          > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
          > infancy.
          >
          >
          >
          > Janet
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
          > On
          > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi, everyone!
          > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
          > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
          >
          > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
          > followed
          > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
          what
          > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
          > don't
          > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
          > mean?
          >
          > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
          father's
          > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
          > only
          > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
          it
          > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
          or
          > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
          you
          > solve this mysteries?
          >
          > I would really like to read your opinions,
          > Thanks as always,
          >
          > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Bill Tarkulich
          http://www.iabsi.com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          Yahoo! Groups Links






          ---------------------------------
          Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
          always stay connected to friends.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bill Tarkulich
          If DRAVCI is the same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built in 1806. I
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            If DRAVCI is the same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
            book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
            in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
            Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
            That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
            Bill

            On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
            > Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information about
            > Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
            > since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
            > access to archives.
            > Thanks - Chris
            >
            > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
            > First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
            > In many
            > churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
            > bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
            > came together in one place Again, not always.
            >
            > Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
            > information,
            > even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
            > contrary.
            > Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
            > records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
            > start somewhere else.
            > Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
            > village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
            > lost,
            > some misplaced, some misfiled.
            >
            > These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
            > confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
            > archives has.
            >
            > Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
            > it.
            > Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
            > archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
            > the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
            > church records you have found. Have you looked there?
            >
            > See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
            > other
            > questions about how far back church records go.
            >
            > You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
            > event
            > had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
            > village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
            > right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
            > before
            > you try to cast your net too wide.
            > If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
            > village
            > or region can be helpful also.
            >
            > Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati
            > )
            > district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
            > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
            > district was a village called Esztrény (see
            > http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
            > opinion,
            > doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
            > abbreviation.
            >
            > Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
            > "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
            > Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
            > sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
            > sample
            > page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
            >
            > You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
            > I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
            > devote
            > to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
            > questions
            > coming, and remind me from time to time.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Bill
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
            >
            > Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
            > little information I have.
            >
            > -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
            > from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
            > handwritten
            > and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
            > written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
            >
            > -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
            > jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
            > priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
            > really
            > don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
            > perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
            > doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
            > years.
            > "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
            > In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
            > built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
            > but
            > years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
            > and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
            >
            > - The records belong to the evangelical church.
            >
            > - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
            > received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
            > So,
            > yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
            > Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
            > Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
            > Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
            >
            > -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
            > have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
            >
            > That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
            > that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
            > get
            > to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
            > there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
            >
            > Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
            > Hugs from Argentina,
            > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
            >
            > From: Bill Tarkulich
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
            > Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
            >
            > I'll take a shot at #1:
            > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
            > followed
            > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
            > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
            > don't
            > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
            > mean?
            >
            > - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
            > original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
            > someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
            > annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
            > genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
            >
            > - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
            > to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
            > further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
            > the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
            > example, in the case of rape.
            >
            > - What religion are the records you examined?
            >
            > - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
            > churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
            > years ago.
            >
            > - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
            > mother's birth record in the village?
            >
            > I can comment further when you provide the above info.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Bill
            >
            > On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
            >> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
            >> was
            >> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
            >> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
            >> parents weren't married.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
            >> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
            >> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
            > was
            >> a
            >> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
            >> "died"
            >> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
            >> one
            >> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
            >> infancy.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Janet
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> _____
            >>
            >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
            >> On
            >> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
            >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
            >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Hi, everyone!
            >> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
            >> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
            >>
            >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
            >> followed
            >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
            > what
            >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
            >> don't
            >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
            >> mean?
            >>
            >> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
            > father's
            >> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
            >> only
            >> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
            > it
            >> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
            > or
            >> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
            > you
            >> solve this mysteries?
            >>
            >> I would really like to read your opinions,
            >> Thanks as always,
            >>
            >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            > --
            > Bill Tarkulich
            > http://www.iabsi.com
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
            > always stay connected to friends.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Bill Tarkulich
            http://www.iabsi.com
          • christopher gajda
            Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of the Church, but that s not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for trying!!! Chris

              Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
              book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
              in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
              Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
              That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
              Bill

              On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
              > Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information about
              > Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
              > since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
              > access to archives.
              > Thanks - Chris
              >
              > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
              > First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
              > In many
              > churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
              > bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
              > came together in one place Again, not always.
              >
              > Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
              > information,
              > even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
              > contrary.
              > Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
              > records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
              > start somewhere else.
              > Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
              > village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
              > lost,
              > some misplaced, some misfiled.
              >
              > These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
              > confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
              > archives has.
              >
              > Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
              > it.
              > Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
              > archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
              > the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
              > church records you have found. Have you looked there?
              >
              > See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
              > other
              > questions about how far back church records go.
              >
              > You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
              > event
              > had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
              > village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
              > right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
              > before
              > you try to cast your net too wide.
              > If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
              > village
              > or region can be helpful also.
              >
              > Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati
              > )
              > district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
              > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
              > district was a village called Esztrény (see
              > http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
              > opinion,
              > doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
              > abbreviation.
              >
              > Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
              > "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
              > Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
              > sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
              > sample
              > page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
              >
              > You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
              > I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
              > devote
              > to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
              > questions
              > coming, and remind me from time to time.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Bill
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
              >
              > Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
              > little information I have.
              >
              > -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
              > from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
              > handwritten
              > and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
              > written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
              >
              > -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
              > jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
              > priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
              > really
              > don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
              > perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
              > doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
              > years.
              > "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
              > In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
              > built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
              > but
              > years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
              > and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
              >
              > - The records belong to the evangelical church.
              >
              > - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
              > received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
              > So,
              > yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
              > Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
              > Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
              > Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
              >
              > -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
              > have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
              >
              > That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
              > that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
              > get
              > to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
              > there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
              >
              > Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
              > Hugs from Argentina,
              > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
              >
              > From: Bill Tarkulich
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
              > Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
              >
              > I'll take a shot at #1:
              > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
              > followed
              > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
              > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
              > don't
              > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
              > mean?
              >
              > - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
              > original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
              > someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
              > annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
              > genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
              >
              > - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
              > to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
              > further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
              > the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
              > example, in the case of rape.
              >
              > - What religion are the records you examined?
              >
              > - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
              > churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
              > years ago.
              >
              > - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
              > mother's birth record in the village?
              >
              > I can comment further when you provide the above info.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Bill
              >
              > On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
              >> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
              >> was
              >> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
              >> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
              >> parents weren't married.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
              >> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
              >> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
              > was
              >> a
              >> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
              >> "died"
              >> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
              >> one
              >> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
              >> infancy.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Janet
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> _____
              >>
              >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
              >> On
              >> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
              >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
              >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              >> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Hi, everyone!
              >> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
              >> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
              >>
              >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
              >> followed
              >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
              > what
              >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
              >> don't
              >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
              >> mean?
              >>
              >> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
              > father's
              >> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
              >> only
              >> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
              > it
              >> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
              > or
              >> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
              > you
              >> solve this mysteries?
              >>
              >> I would really like to read your opinions,
              >> Thanks as always,
              >>
              >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              > --
              > Bill Tarkulich
              > http://www.iabsi.com
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
              > always stay connected to friends.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Bill Tarkulich
              http://www.iabsi.com






              ---------------------------------
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bill Tarkulich
              I presume you have the historical information on the church and need not that either then? Regards, Bill ... -- Bill Tarkulich http://www.iabsi.com
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                I presume you have the historical information on the church and need not
                that either then?
                Regards,
                Bill
                On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
                > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
                > trying!!! Chris
                >
                > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
                > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                > Bill
                >
                > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
                >> about
                >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                >> access to archives.
                >> Thanks - Chris
                >>
                >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                >> In many
                >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                >> came together in one place Again, not always.
                >>
                >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                >> information,
                >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                >> contrary.
                >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
                >> D
                >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                >> start somewhere else.
                >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                >> lost,
                >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
                >>
                >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                >> archives has.
                >>
                >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                >> it.
                >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
                >> in
                >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                >>
                >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                >> other
                >> questions about how far back church records go.
                >>
                >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                >> event
                >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                >> before
                >> you try to cast your net too wide.
                >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                >> village
                >> or region can be helpful also.
                >>
                >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
                >> (Rimaszombati
                >> )
                >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
                >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                >> opinion,
                >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                >> abbreviation.
                >>
                >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
                >> It
                >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                >> sample
                >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                >>
                >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                >> devote
                >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                >> questions
                >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
                >>
                >> Regards,
                >>
                >> Bill
                >>
                >>
                >> -----Original Message-----
                >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                >>
                >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
                >> the
                >> little information I have.
                >>
                >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
                >> records
                >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                >> handwritten
                >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                >>
                >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
                >> they
                >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                >> really
                >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
                >> really
                >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                >> years.
                >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
                >> 1566.
                >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
                >> was
                >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                >> but
                >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
                >> 1860
                >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                >>
                >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                >>
                >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                >> So,
                >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
                >> Roman
                >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                >>
                >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                >>
                >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
                >> possibility
                >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                >> get
                >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
                >> if
                >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                >>
                >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                >> Hugs from Argentina,
                >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                >>
                >> From: Bill Tarkulich
                >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                >>
                >> I'll take a shot at #1:
                >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                >> followed
                >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                >> what
                >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                >> don't
                >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                >> mean?
                >>
                >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                >>
                >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
                >> important
                >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                >> example, in the case of rape.
                >>
                >> - What religion are the records you examined?
                >>
                >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                >> years ago.
                >>
                >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                >> mother's birth record in the village?
                >>
                >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                >>
                >> Regards,
                >> Bill
                >>
                >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
                >>> child
                >>> was
                >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                >>> parents weren't married.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
                >>> child's
                >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                >> was
                >>> a
                >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                >>> "died"
                >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
                >>> in
                >>> one
                >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                >>> infancy.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> Janet
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> _____
                >>>
                >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                >>> On
                >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> Hi, everyone!
                >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
                >>> and
                >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                >>>
                >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                >>> followed
                >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                >> what
                >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                >>> don't
                >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                >>> mean?
                >>>
                >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                >> father's
                >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                >>> only
                >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                >> it
                >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                >> or
                >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                >> you
                >>> solve this mysteries?
                >>>
                >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
                >>> Thanks as always,
                >>>
                >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                >>>
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                >>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>
                >> --
                >> Bill Tarkulich
                >> http://www.iabsi.com
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ---------------------------------
                >> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                >> always stay connected to friends.
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                > --
                > Bill Tarkulich
                > http://www.iabsi.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Bill Tarkulich
                http://www.iabsi.com
              • christopher gajda
                All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I d appreciate it!!!!!! Bill Tarkulich wrote: I
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd appreciate it!!!!!!

                  Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: I presume you have the historical information on the church and need not
                  that either then?
                  Regards,
                  Bill
                  On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                  > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
                  > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                  > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
                  > trying!!! Chris
                  >
                  > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
                  > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                  > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                  > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                  > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                  > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                  > Bill
                  >
                  > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                  >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
                  >> about
                  >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                  >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                  >> access to archives.
                  >> Thanks - Chris
                  >>
                  >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                  >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                  >> In many
                  >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                  >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                  >> came together in one place Again, not always.
                  >>
                  >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                  >> information,
                  >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                  >> contrary.
                  >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
                  >> D
                  >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                  >> start somewhere else.
                  >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                  >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                  >> lost,
                  >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
                  >>
                  >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                  >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                  >> archives has.
                  >>
                  >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                  >> it.
                  >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                  >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
                  >> in
                  >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                  >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                  >>
                  >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                  >> other
                  >> questions about how far back church records go.
                  >>
                  >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                  >> event
                  >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                  >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                  >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                  >> before
                  >> you try to cast your net too wide.
                  >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                  >> village
                  >> or region can be helpful also.
                  >>
                  >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
                  >> (Rimaszombati
                  >> )
                  >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                  >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                  >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
                  >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                  >> opinion,
                  >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                  >> abbreviation.
                  >>
                  >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                  >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                  >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
                  >> It
                  >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                  >> sample
                  >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                  >>
                  >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                  >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                  >> devote
                  >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                  >> questions
                  >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
                  >>
                  >> Regards,
                  >>
                  >> Bill
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                  >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                  >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                  >>
                  >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
                  >> the
                  >> little information I have.
                  >>
                  >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
                  >> records
                  >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                  >> handwritten
                  >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                  >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                  >>
                  >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
                  >> they
                  >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                  >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                  >> really
                  >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                  >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
                  >> really
                  >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                  >> years.
                  >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
                  >> 1566.
                  >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
                  >> was
                  >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                  >> but
                  >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
                  >> 1860
                  >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                  >>
                  >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                  >>
                  >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                  >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                  >> So,
                  >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                  >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
                  >> Roman
                  >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                  >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                  >>
                  >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                  >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                  >>
                  >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
                  >> possibility
                  >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                  >> get
                  >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
                  >> if
                  >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                  >>
                  >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                  >> Hugs from Argentina,
                  >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                  >>
                  >> From: Bill Tarkulich
                  >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                  >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                  >>
                  >> I'll take a shot at #1:
                  >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                  >> followed
                  >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                  >> what
                  >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                  >> don't
                  >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                  >> mean?
                  >>
                  >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                  >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                  >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                  >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                  >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                  >>
                  >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
                  >> important
                  >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                  >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                  >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                  >> example, in the case of rape.
                  >>
                  >> - What religion are the records you examined?
                  >>
                  >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                  >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                  >> years ago.
                  >>
                  >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                  >> mother's birth record in the village?
                  >>
                  >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                  >>
                  >> Regards,
                  >> Bill
                  >>
                  >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                  >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
                  >>> child
                  >>> was
                  >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                  >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                  >>> parents weren't married.
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                  >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
                  >>> child's
                  >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                  >> was
                  >>> a
                  >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                  >>> "died"
                  >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
                  >>> in
                  >>> one
                  >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                  >>> infancy.
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> Janet
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> _____
                  >>>
                  >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                  >>> On
                  >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                  >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                  >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> Hi, everyone!
                  >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
                  >>> and
                  >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                  >>>
                  >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                  >>> followed
                  >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                  >> what
                  >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                  >>> don't
                  >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                  >>> mean?
                  >>>
                  >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                  >> father's
                  >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                  >>> only
                  >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                  >> it
                  >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                  >> or
                  >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                  >> you
                  >>> solve this mysteries?
                  >>>
                  >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
                  >>> Thanks as always,
                  >>>
                  >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                  >>>
                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  >>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >> --
                  >> Bill Tarkulich
                  >> http://www.iabsi.com
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ---------------------------------
                  >> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                  >> always stay connected to friends.
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  > --
                  > Bill Tarkulich
                  > http://www.iabsi.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                  > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Bill Tarkulich
                  http://www.iabsi.com






                  ---------------------------------
                  Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bill Tarkulich
                  There are 2-3 paragraphs of history about the church (and undoubtedly the village). It s written in Ukrainian. I can scan and send it to you sometimes this
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 5, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    There are 2-3 paragraphs of history about the church (and undoubtedly the
                    village). It's written in Ukrainian. I can scan and send it to you
                    sometimes this week. Look for an email from me with an attachment
                    Tues/Wed. I hope I have your email somewhere. If possible, send me a
                    private message with your address.

                    Bill

                    On Sun, February 4, 2007 10:10 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                    > All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd
                    > appreciate it!!!!!!
                    >
                  • Bill Tarkulich
                    DRAWCE = UNGDAROK 1910 Census pop 1103: 754 magyar, 49 slovak, 297 Ruthene. 125 Roman C., 867 Greek C, 98 Jews Bill ... From: christopher gajda
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 10, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      DRAWCE = UNGDAROK

                      1910 Census
                      pop 1103: 754 magyar, 49 slovak, 297 Ruthene. 125 Roman C., 867 Greek C, 98
                      Jews


                      Bill


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: christopher gajda [mailto:christophergajda@...]
                      Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 10:11 PM
                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [S-R] DRAVCI village

                      All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd
                      appreciate it!!!!!!

                      Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: I presume you have
                      the historical information on the church and need not
                      that either then?
                      Regards,
                      Bill
                      On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                      > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
                      > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                      > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
                      > trying!!! Chris
                      >
                      > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
                      > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                      > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                      > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                      > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                      > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                      > Bill
                      >
                      > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                      >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
                      >> about
                      >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                      >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                      >> access to archives.
                      >> Thanks - Chris
                      >>
                      >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                      >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                      >> In many
                      >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                      >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                      >> came together in one place Again, not always.
                      >>
                      >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                      >> information,
                      >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                      >> contrary.
                      >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
                      >> D
                      >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                      >> start somewhere else.
                      >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                      >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                      >> lost,
                      >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
                      >>
                      >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                      >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                      >> archives has.
                      >>
                      >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                      >> it.
                      >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                      >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
                      >> in
                      >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                      >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                      >>
                      >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                      >> other
                      >> questions about how far back church records go.
                      >>
                      >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                      >> event
                      >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                      >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                      >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                      >> before
                      >> you try to cast your net too wide.
                      >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                      >> village
                      >> or region can be helpful also.
                      >>
                      >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
                      >> (Rimaszombati
                      >> )
                      >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                      >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                      >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
                      >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                      >> opinion,
                      >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                      >> abbreviation.
                      >>
                      >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                      >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                      >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
                      >> It
                      >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                      >> sample
                      >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                      >>
                      >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                      >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                      >> devote
                      >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                      >> questions
                      >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
                      >>
                      >> Regards,
                      >>
                      >> Bill
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                      >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                      >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                      >>
                      >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
                      >> the
                      >> little information I have.
                      >>
                      >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
                      >> records
                      >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                      >> handwritten
                      >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                      >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                      >>
                      >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
                      >> they
                      >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                      >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                      >> really
                      >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                      >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
                      >> really
                      >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                      >> years.
                      >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
                      >> 1566.
                      >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
                      >> was
                      >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                      >> but
                      >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
                      >> 1860
                      >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                      >>
                      >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                      >>
                      >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                      >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                      >> So,
                      >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                      >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
                      >> Roman
                      >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                      >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                      >>
                      >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                      >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                      >>
                      >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
                      >> possibility
                      >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                      >> get
                      >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
                      >> if
                      >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                      >>
                      >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                      >> Hugs from Argentina,
                      >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                      >>
                      >> From: Bill Tarkulich
                      >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                      >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                      >>
                      >> I'll take a shot at #1:
                      >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                      >> followed
                      >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                      >> what
                      >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                      >> don't
                      >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                      >> mean?
                      >>
                      >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                      >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                      >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                      >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                      >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                      >>
                      >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
                      >> important
                      >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                      >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                      >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                      >> example, in the case of rape.
                      >>
                      >> - What religion are the records you examined?
                      >>
                      >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                      >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                      >> years ago.
                      >>
                      >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                      >> mother's birth record in the village?
                      >>
                      >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                      >>
                      >> Regards,
                      >> Bill
                      >>
                      >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                      >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
                      >>> child
                      >>> was
                      >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                      >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                      >>> parents weren't married.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                      >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
                      >>> child's
                      >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                      >> was
                      >>> a
                      >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                      >>> "died"
                      >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
                      >>> in
                      >>> one
                      >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                      >>> infancy.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> Janet
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> _____
                      >>>
                      >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                      >>> On
                      >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                      >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                      >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> Hi, everyone!
                      >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
                      >>> and
                      >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                      >>>
                      >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                      >>> followed
                      >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                      >> what
                      >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                      >>> don't
                      >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                      >>> mean?
                      >>>
                      >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                      >> father's
                      >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                      >>> only
                      >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                      >> it
                      >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                      >> or
                      >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                      >> you
                      >>> solve this mysteries?
                      >>>
                      >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
                      >>> Thanks as always,
                      >>>
                      >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                      >>>
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      >>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >> --
                      >> Bill Tarkulich
                      >> http://www.iabsi.com
                      >>
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                      >>
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                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
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                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      > --
                      > Bill Tarkulich
                      > http://www.iabsi.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      --
                      Bill Tarkulich
                      http://www.iabsi.com






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