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RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

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  • Bill Tarkulich
    I ll take a shot at #1: 1) I have found that below some registrations there s written: EST. followed by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don t have the
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 30, 2007
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      I'll take a shot at #1:
      1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST. followed
      by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
      does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different) don't
      match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
      mean?

      - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
      original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
      someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
      annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
      genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

      - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
      to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
      further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
      the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
      example, in the case of rape.

      - What religion are the records you examined?

      - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
      churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
      years ago.

      - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
      mother's birth record in the village?

      I can comment further when you provide the above info.

      Regards,
      Bill




      On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
      > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
      > was
      > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
      > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
      > parents weren't married.
      >
      >
      >
      > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
      > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
      > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy was
      > a
      > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
      > "died"
      > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
      > one
      > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
      > infancy.
      >
      >
      >
      > Janet
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
      > On
      > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
      > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi, everyone!
      > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
      > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
      >
      > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
      > followed
      > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
      > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
      > don't
      > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
      > mean?
      >
      > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a father's
      > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
      > only
      > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is it
      > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate or
      > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help you
      > solve this mysteries?
      >
      > I would really like to read your opinions,
      > Thanks as always,
      >
      > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      Bill Tarkulich
      http://www.iabsi.com
    • Maria Eugenia Kromholc
      Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the little information I have. -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 31, 2007
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        Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the little information I have.

        -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are handwritten and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).

        -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I really don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many years. "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566. In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation but years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860 and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.

        - The records belong to the evangelical church.

        - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there. So, yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants. Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).

        -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.

        That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we get to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?

        Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
        Hugs from Argentina,
        Maria Eugenia Kromholc


        From: Bill Tarkulich
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
        Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA


        I'll take a shot at #1:
        1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST. followed
        by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
        does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different) don't
        match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
        mean?

        - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
        original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
        someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
        annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
        genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

        - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
        to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
        further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
        the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
        example, in the case of rape.

        - What religion are the records you examined?

        - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
        churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
        years ago.

        - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
        mother's birth record in the village?

        I can comment further when you provide the above info.

        Regards,
        Bill

        On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
        > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
        > was
        > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
        > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
        > parents weren't married.
        >
        >
        >
        > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
        > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
        > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy was
        > a
        > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
        > "died"
        > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
        > one
        > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
        > infancy.
        >
        >
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
        > On
        > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi, everyone!
        > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
        > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
        >
        > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
        > followed
        > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
        > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
        > don't
        > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
        > mean?
        >
        > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a father's
        > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
        > only
        > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is it
        > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate or
        > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help you
        > solve this mysteries?
        >
        > I would really like to read your opinions,
        > Thanks as always,
        >
        > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Bill Tarkulich
        http://www.iabsi.com





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • david1law@aol.com
        Hi Maria If you come across a STRELKA family in your lineage, please let me know, as I know a STRELKA family whose ancestors were from KOKOVA NAD RIMACOU that
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 31, 2007
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          Hi Maria

          If you come across a STRELKA family in your lineage, please let me know, as
          I know a STRELKA family whose ancestors were from KOKOVA NAD RIMACOU that I
          can put you in touch with.

          Best regards,

          David Michael Baloga
          Cleveland, Ohio


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • J. Michutka
          ... If you like, I can scan and email to you the entry from this town from Vlastivedny Slovak Obci na Slovensku; it indicates that the population of Kokava nad
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2007
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            >
            >
            >- I cannot tell you the population at that time
            >because I still haven't received the census
            >microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living
            >there. So, yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were
            >less than 1,000 inhabitants. Concerning the
            >number of churches: "The others sacral monuments
            >are Roman Catholic church from 1820, chapel at
            >Kukucínová street from 1847 and Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).


            If you like, I can scan and email to you the
            entry from this town from Vlastivedny Slovak Obci
            na Slovensku; it indicates that the population of
            Kokava nad Rimavicou (which seems to include
            quite a few hamlets) was 3949 in 1869, 3314 in
            1880, 3661 in 1890, and it keeps growing from there.

            Julie Michutka
            jmm@...
          • Bill Tarkulich
            First, It s not strange to see records kind of cobbled together. In many churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the bishop. When
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
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              First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together. In many
              churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
              bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
              came together in one place Again, not always.

              Second, different churches had different schemes for recording information,
              even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the contrary.
              Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
              records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
              start somewhere else.
              Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
              village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been lost,
              some misplaced, some misfiled.

              These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
              confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
              archives has.

              Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about it.
              Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
              archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
              the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
              church records you have found. Have you looked there?

              See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your other
              questions about how far back church records go.


              You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major event
              had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
              village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
              right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally before
              you try to cast your net too wide.
              If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger village
              or region can be helpful also.

              Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati )
              district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
              http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
              district was a village called Esztrény (see
              http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my opinion,
              doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
              abbreviation.


              Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
              "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
              Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
              sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a sample
              page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.

              You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
              I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to devote
              to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the questions
              coming, and remind me from time to time.

              Regards,


              Bill


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

              Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
              little information I have.

              -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
              from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are handwritten
              and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
              written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).

              -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
              jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
              priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I really
              don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
              perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
              doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many years.
              "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
              In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
              built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation but
              years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
              and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.

              - The records belong to the evangelical church.

              - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
              received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there. So,
              yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
              Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
              Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
              Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).

              -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
              have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.

              That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
              that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we get
              to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
              there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?

              Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
              Hugs from Argentina,
              Maria Eugenia Kromholc


              From: Bill Tarkulich
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
              Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA


              I'll take a shot at #1:
              1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
              followed
              by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
              does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
              don't
              match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
              mean?

              - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
              original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
              someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
              annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
              genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

              - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
              to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
              further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
              the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
              example, in the case of rape.

              - What religion are the records you examined?

              - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
              churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
              years ago.

              - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
              mother's birth record in the village?

              I can comment further when you provide the above info.

              Regards,
              Bill

              On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
              > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
              > was
              > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
              > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
              > parents weren't married.
              >
              >
              >
              > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
              > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
              > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
              was
              > a
              > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
              > "died"
              > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
              > one
              > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
              > infancy.
              >
              >
              >
              > Janet
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
              > On
              > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
              > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi, everyone!
              > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
              > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
              >
              > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
              > followed
              > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
              what
              > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
              > don't
              > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
              > mean?
              >
              > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
              father's
              > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
              > only
              > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
              it
              > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
              or
              > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
              you
              > solve this mysteries?
              >
              > I would really like to read your opinions,
              > Thanks as always,
              >
              > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Bill Tarkulich
              http://www.iabsi.com





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • christopher gajda
              Bill - do you happen to have any mesta a obce or other information about Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately, since
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
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                Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information about Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately, since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given access to archives.
                Thanks - Chris

                Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together. In many
                churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                came together in one place Again, not always.

                Second, different churches had different schemes for recording information,
                even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the contrary.
                Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
                records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                start somewhere else.
                Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been lost,
                some misplaced, some misfiled.

                These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                archives has.

                Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about it.
                Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
                the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                church records you have found. Have you looked there?

                See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your other
                questions about how far back church records go.

                You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major event
                had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally before
                you try to cast your net too wide.
                If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger village
                or region can be helpful also.

                Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati )
                district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                district was a village called Esztrény (see
                http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my opinion,
                doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                abbreviation.

                Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
                sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a sample
                page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.

                You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to devote
                to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the questions
                coming, and remind me from time to time.

                Regards,

                Bill


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

                Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
                little information I have.

                -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
                from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are handwritten
                and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).

                -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
                jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I really
                don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
                doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many years.
                "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
                In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
                built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation but
                years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
                and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.

                - The records belong to the evangelical church.

                - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there. So,
                yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
                Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).

                -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.

                That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
                that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we get
                to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
                there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?

                Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                Hugs from Argentina,
                Maria Eugenia Kromholc

                From: Bill Tarkulich
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

                I'll take a shot at #1:
                1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                followed
                by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
                does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                don't
                match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                mean?

                - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

                - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
                to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                example, in the case of rape.

                - What religion are the records you examined?

                - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                years ago.

                - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                mother's birth record in the village?

                I can comment further when you provide the above info.

                Regards,
                Bill

                On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
                > was
                > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                > parents weren't married.
                >
                >
                >
                > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
                > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                was
                > a
                > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                > "died"
                > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
                > one
                > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                > infancy.
                >
                >
                >
                > Janet
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                > On
                > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi, everyone!
                > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
                > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                >
                > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                > followed
                > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                what
                > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                > don't
                > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                > mean?
                >
                > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                father's
                > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                > only
                > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                it
                > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                or
                > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                you
                > solve this mysteries?
                >
                > I would really like to read your opinions,
                > Thanks as always,
                >
                > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Bill Tarkulich
                http://www.iabsi.com

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                Yahoo! Groups Links






                ---------------------------------
                Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                always stay connected to friends.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bill Tarkulich
                If DRAVCI is the same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built in 1806. I
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  If DRAVCI is the same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                  book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                  in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                  Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                  That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                  Bill

                  On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                  > Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information about
                  > Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                  > since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                  > access to archives.
                  > Thanks - Chris
                  >
                  > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                  > First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                  > In many
                  > churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                  > bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                  > came together in one place Again, not always.
                  >
                  > Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                  > information,
                  > even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                  > contrary.
                  > Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
                  > records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                  > start somewhere else.
                  > Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                  > village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                  > lost,
                  > some misplaced, some misfiled.
                  >
                  > These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                  > confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                  > archives has.
                  >
                  > Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                  > it.
                  > Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                  > archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
                  > the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                  > church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                  >
                  > See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                  > other
                  > questions about how far back church records go.
                  >
                  > You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                  > event
                  > had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                  > village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                  > right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                  > before
                  > you try to cast your net too wide.
                  > If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                  > village
                  > or region can be helpful also.
                  >
                  > Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati
                  > )
                  > district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                  > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                  > district was a village called Esztrény (see
                  > http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                  > opinion,
                  > doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                  > abbreviation.
                  >
                  > Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                  > "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                  > Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
                  > sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                  > sample
                  > page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                  >
                  > You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                  > I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                  > devote
                  > to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                  > questions
                  > coming, and remind me from time to time.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Bill
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                  >
                  > Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
                  > little information I have.
                  >
                  > -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
                  > from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                  > handwritten
                  > and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                  > written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                  >
                  > -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
                  > jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                  > priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                  > really
                  > don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                  > perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
                  > doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                  > years.
                  > "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
                  > In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
                  > built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                  > but
                  > years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
                  > and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                  >
                  > - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                  >
                  > - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                  > received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                  > So,
                  > yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                  > Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
                  > Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                  > Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                  >
                  > -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                  > have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                  >
                  > That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
                  > that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                  > get
                  > to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
                  > there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                  >
                  > Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                  > Hugs from Argentina,
                  > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                  >
                  > From: Bill Tarkulich
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                  > Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                  >
                  > I'll take a shot at #1:
                  > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                  > followed
                  > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
                  > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                  > don't
                  > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                  > mean?
                  >
                  > - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                  > original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                  > someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                  > annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                  > genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                  >
                  > - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
                  > to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                  > further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                  > the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                  > example, in the case of rape.
                  >
                  > - What religion are the records you examined?
                  >
                  > - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                  > churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                  > years ago.
                  >
                  > - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                  > mother's birth record in the village?
                  >
                  > I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Bill
                  >
                  > On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                  >> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
                  >> was
                  >> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                  >> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                  >> parents weren't married.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                  >> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
                  >> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                  > was
                  >> a
                  >> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                  >> "died"
                  >> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
                  >> one
                  >> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                  >> infancy.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Janet
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> _____
                  >>
                  >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                  >> On
                  >> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                  >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                  >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Hi, everyone!
                  >> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
                  >> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                  >>
                  >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                  >> followed
                  >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                  > what
                  >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                  >> don't
                  >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                  >> mean?
                  >>
                  >> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                  > father's
                  >> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                  >> only
                  >> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                  > it
                  >> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                  > or
                  >> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                  > you
                  >> solve this mysteries?
                  >>
                  >> I would really like to read your opinions,
                  >> Thanks as always,
                  >>
                  >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  > --
                  > Bill Tarkulich
                  > http://www.iabsi.com
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                  > always stay connected to friends.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Bill Tarkulich
                  http://www.iabsi.com
                • christopher gajda
                  Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of the Church, but that s not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for trying!!! Chris

                    Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                    book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                    in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                    Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                    That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                    Bill

                    On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                    > Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information about
                    > Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                    > since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                    > access to archives.
                    > Thanks - Chris
                    >
                    > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                    > First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                    > In many
                    > churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                    > bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                    > came together in one place Again, not always.
                    >
                    > Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                    > information,
                    > even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                    > contrary.
                    > Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
                    > records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                    > start somewhere else.
                    > Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                    > village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                    > lost,
                    > some misplaced, some misfiled.
                    >
                    > These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                    > confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                    > archives has.
                    >
                    > Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                    > it.
                    > Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                    > archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
                    > the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                    > church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                    >
                    > See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                    > other
                    > questions about how far back church records go.
                    >
                    > You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                    > event
                    > had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                    > village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                    > right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                    > before
                    > you try to cast your net too wide.
                    > If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                    > village
                    > or region can be helpful also.
                    >
                    > Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati
                    > )
                    > district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                    > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                    > district was a village called Esztrény (see
                    > http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                    > opinion,
                    > doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                    > abbreviation.
                    >
                    > Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                    > "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                    > Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
                    > sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                    > sample
                    > page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                    >
                    > You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                    > I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                    > devote
                    > to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                    > questions
                    > coming, and remind me from time to time.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Bill
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                    >
                    > Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
                    > little information I have.
                    >
                    > -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
                    > from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                    > handwritten
                    > and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                    > written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                    >
                    > -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
                    > jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                    > priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                    > really
                    > don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                    > perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
                    > doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                    > years.
                    > "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
                    > In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
                    > built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                    > but
                    > years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
                    > and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                    >
                    > - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                    >
                    > - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                    > received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                    > So,
                    > yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                    > Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
                    > Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                    > Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                    >
                    > -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                    > have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                    >
                    > That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
                    > that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                    > get
                    > to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
                    > there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                    >
                    > Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                    > Hugs from Argentina,
                    > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                    >
                    > From: Bill Tarkulich
                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                    > Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                    >
                    > I'll take a shot at #1:
                    > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                    > followed
                    > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
                    > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                    > don't
                    > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                    > mean?
                    >
                    > - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                    > original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                    > someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                    > annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                    > genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                    >
                    > - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
                    > to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                    > further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                    > the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                    > example, in the case of rape.
                    >
                    > - What religion are the records you examined?
                    >
                    > - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                    > churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                    > years ago.
                    >
                    > - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                    > mother's birth record in the village?
                    >
                    > I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Bill
                    >
                    > On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                    >> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
                    >> was
                    >> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                    >> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                    >> parents weren't married.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                    >> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
                    >> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                    > was
                    >> a
                    >> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                    >> "died"
                    >> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
                    >> one
                    >> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                    >> infancy.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Janet
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> _____
                    >>
                    >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                    >> On
                    >> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                    >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                    >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Hi, everyone!
                    >> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
                    >> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                    >>
                    >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                    >> followed
                    >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                    > what
                    >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                    >> don't
                    >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                    >> mean?
                    >>
                    >> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                    > father's
                    >> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                    >> only
                    >> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                    > it
                    >> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                    > or
                    >> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                    > you
                    >> solve this mysteries?
                    >>
                    >> I would really like to read your opinions,
                    >> Thanks as always,
                    >>
                    >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                    >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                    >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > --
                    > Bill Tarkulich
                    > http://www.iabsi.com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                    > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                    > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                    > always stay connected to friends.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                    > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                    > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Bill Tarkulich
                    http://www.iabsi.com






                    ---------------------------------
                    Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                    Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bill Tarkulich
                    I presume you have the historical information on the church and need not that either then? Regards, Bill ... -- Bill Tarkulich http://www.iabsi.com
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I presume you have the historical information on the church and need not
                      that either then?
                      Regards,
                      Bill
                      On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                      > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
                      > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                      > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
                      > trying!!! Chris
                      >
                      > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
                      > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                      > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                      > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                      > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                      > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                      > Bill
                      >
                      > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                      >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
                      >> about
                      >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                      >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                      >> access to archives.
                      >> Thanks - Chris
                      >>
                      >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                      >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                      >> In many
                      >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                      >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                      >> came together in one place Again, not always.
                      >>
                      >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                      >> information,
                      >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                      >> contrary.
                      >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
                      >> D
                      >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                      >> start somewhere else.
                      >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                      >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                      >> lost,
                      >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
                      >>
                      >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                      >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                      >> archives has.
                      >>
                      >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                      >> it.
                      >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                      >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
                      >> in
                      >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                      >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                      >>
                      >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                      >> other
                      >> questions about how far back church records go.
                      >>
                      >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                      >> event
                      >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                      >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                      >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                      >> before
                      >> you try to cast your net too wide.
                      >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                      >> village
                      >> or region can be helpful also.
                      >>
                      >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
                      >> (Rimaszombati
                      >> )
                      >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                      >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                      >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
                      >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                      >> opinion,
                      >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                      >> abbreviation.
                      >>
                      >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                      >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                      >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
                      >> It
                      >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                      >> sample
                      >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                      >>
                      >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                      >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                      >> devote
                      >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                      >> questions
                      >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
                      >>
                      >> Regards,
                      >>
                      >> Bill
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                      >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                      >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                      >>
                      >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
                      >> the
                      >> little information I have.
                      >>
                      >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
                      >> records
                      >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                      >> handwritten
                      >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                      >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                      >>
                      >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
                      >> they
                      >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                      >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                      >> really
                      >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                      >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
                      >> really
                      >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                      >> years.
                      >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
                      >> 1566.
                      >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
                      >> was
                      >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                      >> but
                      >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
                      >> 1860
                      >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                      >>
                      >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                      >>
                      >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                      >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                      >> So,
                      >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                      >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
                      >> Roman
                      >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                      >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                      >>
                      >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                      >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                      >>
                      >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
                      >> possibility
                      >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                      >> get
                      >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
                      >> if
                      >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                      >>
                      >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                      >> Hugs from Argentina,
                      >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                      >>
                      >> From: Bill Tarkulich
                      >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                      >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                      >>
                      >> I'll take a shot at #1:
                      >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                      >> followed
                      >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                      >> what
                      >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                      >> don't
                      >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                      >> mean?
                      >>
                      >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                      >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                      >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                      >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                      >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                      >>
                      >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
                      >> important
                      >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                      >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                      >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                      >> example, in the case of rape.
                      >>
                      >> - What religion are the records you examined?
                      >>
                      >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                      >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                      >> years ago.
                      >>
                      >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                      >> mother's birth record in the village?
                      >>
                      >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                      >>
                      >> Regards,
                      >> Bill
                      >>
                      >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                      >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
                      >>> child
                      >>> was
                      >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                      >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                      >>> parents weren't married.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                      >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
                      >>> child's
                      >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                      >> was
                      >>> a
                      >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                      >>> "died"
                      >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
                      >>> in
                      >>> one
                      >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                      >>> infancy.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> Janet
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> _____
                      >>>
                      >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                      >>> On
                      >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                      >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                      >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> Hi, everyone!
                      >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
                      >>> and
                      >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                      >>>
                      >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                      >>> followed
                      >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                      >> what
                      >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                      >>> don't
                      >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                      >>> mean?
                      >>>
                      >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                      >> father's
                      >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                      >>> only
                      >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                      >> it
                      >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                      >> or
                      >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                      >> you
                      >>> solve this mysteries?
                      >>>
                      >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
                      >>> Thanks as always,
                      >>>
                      >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                      >>>
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      >>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >> --
                      >> Bill Tarkulich
                      >> http://www.iabsi.com
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ---------------------------------
                      >> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                      >> always stay connected to friends.
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      > --
                      > Bill Tarkulich
                      > http://www.iabsi.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                      > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      Bill Tarkulich
                      http://www.iabsi.com
                    • christopher gajda
                      All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I d appreciate it!!!!!! Bill Tarkulich wrote: I
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd appreciate it!!!!!!

                        Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: I presume you have the historical information on the church and need not
                        that either then?
                        Regards,
                        Bill
                        On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                        > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
                        > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                        > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
                        > trying!!! Chris
                        >
                        > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
                        > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                        > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                        > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                        > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                        > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                        > Bill
                        >
                        > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                        >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
                        >> about
                        >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                        >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                        >> access to archives.
                        >> Thanks - Chris
                        >>
                        >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                        >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                        >> In many
                        >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                        >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                        >> came together in one place Again, not always.
                        >>
                        >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                        >> information,
                        >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                        >> contrary.
                        >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
                        >> D
                        >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                        >> start somewhere else.
                        >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                        >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                        >> lost,
                        >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
                        >>
                        >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                        >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                        >> archives has.
                        >>
                        >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                        >> it.
                        >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                        >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
                        >> in
                        >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                        >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                        >>
                        >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                        >> other
                        >> questions about how far back church records go.
                        >>
                        >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                        >> event
                        >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                        >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                        >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                        >> before
                        >> you try to cast your net too wide.
                        >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                        >> village
                        >> or region can be helpful also.
                        >>
                        >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
                        >> (Rimaszombati
                        >> )
                        >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                        >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                        >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
                        >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                        >> opinion,
                        >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                        >> abbreviation.
                        >>
                        >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                        >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                        >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
                        >> It
                        >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                        >> sample
                        >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                        >>
                        >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                        >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                        >> devote
                        >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                        >> questions
                        >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
                        >>
                        >> Regards,
                        >>
                        >> Bill
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> -----Original Message-----
                        >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                        >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                        >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                        >>
                        >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
                        >> the
                        >> little information I have.
                        >>
                        >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
                        >> records
                        >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                        >> handwritten
                        >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                        >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                        >>
                        >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
                        >> they
                        >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                        >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                        >> really
                        >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                        >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
                        >> really
                        >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                        >> years.
                        >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
                        >> 1566.
                        >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
                        >> was
                        >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                        >> but
                        >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
                        >> 1860
                        >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                        >>
                        >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                        >>
                        >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                        >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                        >> So,
                        >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                        >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
                        >> Roman
                        >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                        >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                        >>
                        >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                        >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                        >>
                        >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
                        >> possibility
                        >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                        >> get
                        >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
                        >> if
                        >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                        >>
                        >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                        >> Hugs from Argentina,
                        >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                        >>
                        >> From: Bill Tarkulich
                        >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                        >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                        >>
                        >> I'll take a shot at #1:
                        >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                        >> followed
                        >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                        >> what
                        >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                        >> don't
                        >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                        >> mean?
                        >>
                        >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                        >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                        >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                        >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                        >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                        >>
                        >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
                        >> important
                        >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                        >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                        >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                        >> example, in the case of rape.
                        >>
                        >> - What religion are the records you examined?
                        >>
                        >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                        >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                        >> years ago.
                        >>
                        >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                        >> mother's birth record in the village?
                        >>
                        >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                        >>
                        >> Regards,
                        >> Bill
                        >>
                        >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                        >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
                        >>> child
                        >>> was
                        >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                        >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                        >>> parents weren't married.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                        >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
                        >>> child's
                        >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                        >> was
                        >>> a
                        >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                        >>> "died"
                        >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
                        >>> in
                        >>> one
                        >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                        >>> infancy.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Janet
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> _____
                        >>>
                        >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                        >>> On
                        >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                        >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                        >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Hi, everyone!
                        >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
                        >>> and
                        >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                        >>>
                        >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                        >>> followed
                        >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                        >> what
                        >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                        >>> don't
                        >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                        >>> mean?
                        >>>
                        >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                        >> father's
                        >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                        >>> only
                        >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                        >> it
                        >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                        >> or
                        >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                        >> you
                        >>> solve this mysteries?
                        >>>
                        >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
                        >>> Thanks as always,
                        >>>
                        >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                        >>>
                        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        >>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>
                        >> --
                        >> Bill Tarkulich
                        >> http://www.iabsi.com
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> ---------------------------------
                        >> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                        >> always stay connected to friends.
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        > --
                        > Bill Tarkulich
                        > http://www.iabsi.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                        > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Bill Tarkulich
                        http://www.iabsi.com






                        ---------------------------------
                        Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bill Tarkulich
                        There are 2-3 paragraphs of history about the church (and undoubtedly the village). It s written in Ukrainian. I can scan and send it to you sometimes this
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 5, 2007
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                          There are 2-3 paragraphs of history about the church (and undoubtedly the
                          village). It's written in Ukrainian. I can scan and send it to you
                          sometimes this week. Look for an email from me with an attachment
                          Tues/Wed. I hope I have your email somewhere. If possible, send me a
                          private message with your address.

                          Bill

                          On Sun, February 4, 2007 10:10 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                          > All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd
                          > appreciate it!!!!!!
                          >
                        • Bill Tarkulich
                          DRAWCE = UNGDAROK 1910 Census pop 1103: 754 magyar, 49 slovak, 297 Ruthene. 125 Roman C., 867 Greek C, 98 Jews Bill ... From: christopher gajda
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 10, 2007
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                            DRAWCE = UNGDAROK

                            1910 Census
                            pop 1103: 754 magyar, 49 slovak, 297 Ruthene. 125 Roman C., 867 Greek C, 98
                            Jews


                            Bill


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: christopher gajda [mailto:christophergajda@...]
                            Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 10:11 PM
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [S-R] DRAVCI village

                            All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd
                            appreciate it!!!!!!

                            Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: I presume you have
                            the historical information on the church and need not
                            that either then?
                            Regards,
                            Bill
                            On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                            > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
                            > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                            > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
                            > trying!!! Chris
                            >
                            > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
                            > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                            > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                            > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                            > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                            > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                            > Bill
                            >
                            > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                            >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
                            >> about
                            >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                            >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                            >> access to archives.
                            >> Thanks - Chris
                            >>
                            >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                            >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                            >> In many
                            >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                            >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                            >> came together in one place Again, not always.
                            >>
                            >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                            >> information,
                            >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                            >> contrary.
                            >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
                            >> D
                            >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                            >> start somewhere else.
                            >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                            >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                            >> lost,
                            >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
                            >>
                            >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                            >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                            >> archives has.
                            >>
                            >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                            >> it.
                            >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                            >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
                            >> in
                            >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                            >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                            >>
                            >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                            >> other
                            >> questions about how far back church records go.
                            >>
                            >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                            >> event
                            >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                            >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                            >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                            >> before
                            >> you try to cast your net too wide.
                            >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                            >> village
                            >> or region can be helpful also.
                            >>
                            >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
                            >> (Rimaszombati
                            >> )
                            >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                            >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                            >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
                            >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                            >> opinion,
                            >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                            >> abbreviation.
                            >>
                            >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                            >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                            >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
                            >> It
                            >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                            >> sample
                            >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                            >>
                            >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                            >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                            >> devote
                            >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                            >> questions
                            >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
                            >>
                            >> Regards,
                            >>
                            >> Bill
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> -----Original Message-----
                            >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                            >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                            >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                            >>
                            >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
                            >> the
                            >> little information I have.
                            >>
                            >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
                            >> records
                            >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                            >> handwritten
                            >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                            >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                            >>
                            >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
                            >> they
                            >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                            >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                            >> really
                            >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                            >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
                            >> really
                            >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                            >> years.
                            >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
                            >> 1566.
                            >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
                            >> was
                            >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                            >> but
                            >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
                            >> 1860
                            >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                            >>
                            >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                            >>
                            >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                            >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                            >> So,
                            >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                            >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
                            >> Roman
                            >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                            >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                            >>
                            >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                            >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                            >>
                            >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
                            >> possibility
                            >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                            >> get
                            >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
                            >> if
                            >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                            >>
                            >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                            >> Hugs from Argentina,
                            >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                            >>
                            >> From: Bill Tarkulich
                            >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                            >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                            >>
                            >> I'll take a shot at #1:
                            >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                            >> followed
                            >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                            >> what
                            >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                            >> don't
                            >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                            >> mean?
                            >>
                            >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                            >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                            >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                            >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                            >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                            >>
                            >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
                            >> important
                            >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                            >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                            >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                            >> example, in the case of rape.
                            >>
                            >> - What religion are the records you examined?
                            >>
                            >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                            >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                            >> years ago.
                            >>
                            >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                            >> mother's birth record in the village?
                            >>
                            >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                            >>
                            >> Regards,
                            >> Bill
                            >>
                            >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                            >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
                            >>> child
                            >>> was
                            >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                            >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                            >>> parents weren't married.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                            >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
                            >>> child's
                            >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                            >> was
                            >>> a
                            >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                            >>> "died"
                            >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
                            >>> in
                            >>> one
                            >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                            >>> infancy.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> Janet
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> _____
                            >>>
                            >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                            >>> On
                            >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                            >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                            >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> Hi, everyone!
                            >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
                            >>> and
                            >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                            >>>
                            >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                            >>> followed
                            >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                            >> what
                            >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                            >>> don't
                            >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                            >>> mean?
                            >>>
                            >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                            >> father's
                            >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                            >>> only
                            >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                            >> it
                            >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                            >> or
                            >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                            >> you
                            >>> solve this mysteries?
                            >>>
                            >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
                            >>> Thanks as always,
                            >>>
                            >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                            >>>
                            >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                            >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                            >>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>
                            >> --
                            >> Bill Tarkulich
                            >> http://www.iabsi.com
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                            >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                            >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ---------------------------------
                            >> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                            >> always stay connected to friends.
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                            >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                            >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            > --
                            > Bill Tarkulich
                            > http://www.iabsi.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                            > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            --
                            Bill Tarkulich
                            http://www.iabsi.com






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