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Doubts about church records

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  • Maria Eugenia Kromholc
    Hi, everyone! I have been looking at Kokava s ev. church records concerning births and have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :) 1) I
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 30, 2007
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      Hi, everyone!
      I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)

      1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST. followed by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different) don't match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might mean?

      2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a father's name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are only written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is it right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate or dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help you solve this mysteries?


      I would really like to read your opinions,
      Thanks as always,

      Maria Eugenia Kromholc

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Janet Kozlay
      Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child was illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have indicated
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 30, 2007
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        Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child was
        illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
        indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
        parents weren't married.



        If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
        subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
        birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy was a
        very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children "died"
        at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in one
        of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in infancy.



        Janet



        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
        Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records



        Hi, everyone!
        I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
        have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)

        1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST. followed
        by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
        does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different) don't
        match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
        mean?

        2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a father's
        name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are only
        written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is it
        right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate or
        dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help you
        solve this mysteries?

        I would really like to read your opinions,
        Thanks as always,

        Maria Eugenia Kromholc

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill Tarkulich
        I ll take a shot at #1: 1) I have found that below some registrations there s written: EST. followed by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don t have the
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 30, 2007
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          I'll take a shot at #1:
          1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST. followed
          by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
          does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different) don't
          match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
          mean?

          - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
          original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
          someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
          annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
          genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

          - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
          to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
          further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
          the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
          example, in the case of rape.

          - What religion are the records you examined?

          - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
          churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
          years ago.

          - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
          mother's birth record in the village?

          I can comment further when you provide the above info.

          Regards,
          Bill




          On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
          > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
          > was
          > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
          > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
          > parents weren't married.
          >
          >
          >
          > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
          > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
          > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy was
          > a
          > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
          > "died"
          > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
          > one
          > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
          > infancy.
          >
          >
          >
          > Janet
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
          > On
          > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi, everyone!
          > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
          > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
          >
          > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
          > followed
          > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
          > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
          > don't
          > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
          > mean?
          >
          > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a father's
          > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
          > only
          > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is it
          > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate or
          > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help you
          > solve this mysteries?
          >
          > I would really like to read your opinions,
          > Thanks as always,
          >
          > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
          Bill Tarkulich
          http://www.iabsi.com
        • Maria Eugenia Kromholc
          Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the little information I have. -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 31, 2007
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            Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the little information I have.

            -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are handwritten and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).

            -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I really don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many years. "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566. In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation but years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860 and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.

            - The records belong to the evangelical church.

            - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there. So, yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants. Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).

            -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.

            That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we get to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?

            Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
            Hugs from Argentina,
            Maria Eugenia Kromholc


            From: Bill Tarkulich
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
            Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA


            I'll take a shot at #1:
            1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST. followed
            by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
            does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different) don't
            match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
            mean?

            - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
            original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
            someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
            annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
            genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

            - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
            to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
            further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
            the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
            example, in the case of rape.

            - What religion are the records you examined?

            - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
            churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
            years ago.

            - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
            mother's birth record in the village?

            I can comment further when you provide the above info.

            Regards,
            Bill

            On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
            > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
            > was
            > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
            > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
            > parents weren't married.
            >
            >
            >
            > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
            > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
            > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy was
            > a
            > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
            > "died"
            > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
            > one
            > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
            > infancy.
            >
            >
            >
            > Janet
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
            > On
            > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
            > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi, everyone!
            > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
            > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
            >
            > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
            > followed
            > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
            > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
            > don't
            > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
            > mean?
            >
            > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a father's
            > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
            > only
            > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is it
            > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate or
            > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help you
            > solve this mysteries?
            >
            > I would really like to read your opinions,
            > Thanks as always,
            >
            > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Bill Tarkulich
            http://www.iabsi.com





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • david1law@aol.com
            Hi Maria If you come across a STRELKA family in your lineage, please let me know, as I know a STRELKA family whose ancestors were from KOKOVA NAD RIMACOU that
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 31, 2007
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              Hi Maria

              If you come across a STRELKA family in your lineage, please let me know, as
              I know a STRELKA family whose ancestors were from KOKOVA NAD RIMACOU that I
              can put you in touch with.

              Best regards,

              David Michael Baloga
              Cleveland, Ohio


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • J. Michutka
              ... If you like, I can scan and email to you the entry from this town from Vlastivedny Slovak Obci na Slovensku; it indicates that the population of Kokava nad
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 1, 2007
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                >
                >
                >- I cannot tell you the population at that time
                >because I still haven't received the census
                >microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living
                >there. So, yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were
                >less than 1,000 inhabitants. Concerning the
                >number of churches: "The others sacral monuments
                >are Roman Catholic church from 1820, chapel at
                >Kukucínová street from 1847 and Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).


                If you like, I can scan and email to you the
                entry from this town from Vlastivedny Slovak Obci
                na Slovensku; it indicates that the population of
                Kokava nad Rimavicou (which seems to include
                quite a few hamlets) was 3949 in 1869, 3314 in
                1880, 3661 in 1890, and it keeps growing from there.

                Julie Michutka
                jmm@...
              • Bill Tarkulich
                First, It s not strange to see records kind of cobbled together. In many churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the bishop. When
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
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                  First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together. In many
                  churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                  bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                  came together in one place Again, not always.

                  Second, different churches had different schemes for recording information,
                  even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the contrary.
                  Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
                  records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                  start somewhere else.
                  Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                  village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been lost,
                  some misplaced, some misfiled.

                  These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                  confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                  archives has.

                  Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about it.
                  Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                  archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
                  the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                  church records you have found. Have you looked there?

                  See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your other
                  questions about how far back church records go.


                  You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major event
                  had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                  village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                  right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally before
                  you try to cast your net too wide.
                  If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger village
                  or region can be helpful also.

                  Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati )
                  district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                  http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                  district was a village called Esztrény (see
                  http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my opinion,
                  doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                  abbreviation.


                  Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                  "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                  Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
                  sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a sample
                  page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.

                  You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                  I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to devote
                  to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the questions
                  coming, and remind me from time to time.

                  Regards,


                  Bill


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

                  Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
                  little information I have.

                  -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
                  from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are handwritten
                  and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                  written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).

                  -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
                  jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                  priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I really
                  don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                  perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
                  doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many years.
                  "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
                  In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
                  built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation but
                  years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
                  and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.

                  - The records belong to the evangelical church.

                  - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                  received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there. So,
                  yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                  Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
                  Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                  Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).

                  -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                  have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.

                  That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
                  that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we get
                  to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
                  there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?

                  Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                  Hugs from Argentina,
                  Maria Eugenia Kromholc


                  From: Bill Tarkulich
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA


                  I'll take a shot at #1:
                  1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                  followed
                  by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
                  does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                  don't
                  match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                  mean?

                  - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                  original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                  someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                  annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                  genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

                  - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
                  to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                  further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                  the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                  example, in the case of rape.

                  - What religion are the records you examined?

                  - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                  churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                  years ago.

                  - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                  mother's birth record in the village?

                  I can comment further when you provide the above info.

                  Regards,
                  Bill

                  On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                  > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
                  > was
                  > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                  > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                  > parents weren't married.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                  > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
                  > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                  was
                  > a
                  > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                  > "died"
                  > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
                  > one
                  > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                  > infancy.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Janet
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                  > On
                  > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                  > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi, everyone!
                  > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
                  > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                  >
                  > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                  > followed
                  > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                  what
                  > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                  > don't
                  > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                  > mean?
                  >
                  > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                  father's
                  > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                  > only
                  > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                  it
                  > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                  or
                  > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                  you
                  > solve this mysteries?
                  >
                  > I would really like to read your opinions,
                  > Thanks as always,
                  >
                  > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Bill Tarkulich
                  http://www.iabsi.com





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • christopher gajda
                  Bill - do you happen to have any mesta a obce or other information about Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately, since
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
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                    Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information about Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately, since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given access to archives.
                    Thanks - Chris

                    Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                    First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together. In many
                    churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                    bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                    came together in one place Again, not always.

                    Second, different churches had different schemes for recording information,
                    even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the contrary.
                    Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
                    records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                    start somewhere else.
                    Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                    village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been lost,
                    some misplaced, some misfiled.

                    These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                    confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                    archives has.

                    Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about it.
                    Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                    archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
                    the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                    church records you have found. Have you looked there?

                    See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your other
                    questions about how far back church records go.

                    You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major event
                    had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                    village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                    right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally before
                    you try to cast your net too wide.
                    If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger village
                    or region can be helpful also.

                    Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati )
                    district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                    http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                    district was a village called Esztrény (see
                    http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my opinion,
                    doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                    abbreviation.

                    Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                    "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                    Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
                    sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a sample
                    page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.

                    You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                    I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to devote
                    to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the questions
                    coming, and remind me from time to time.

                    Regards,

                    Bill


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

                    Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
                    little information I have.

                    -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
                    from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are handwritten
                    and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                    written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).

                    -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
                    jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                    priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I really
                    don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                    perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
                    doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many years.
                    "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
                    In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
                    built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation but
                    years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
                    and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.

                    - The records belong to the evangelical church.

                    - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                    received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there. So,
                    yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                    Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
                    Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                    Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).

                    -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                    have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.

                    That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
                    that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we get
                    to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
                    there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?

                    Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                    Hugs from Argentina,
                    Maria Eugenia Kromholc

                    From: Bill Tarkulich
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA

                    I'll take a shot at #1:
                    1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                    followed
                    by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
                    does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                    don't
                    match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                    mean?

                    - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                    original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                    someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                    annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                    genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".

                    - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
                    to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                    further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                    the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                    example, in the case of rape.

                    - What religion are the records you examined?

                    - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                    churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                    years ago.

                    - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                    mother's birth record in the village?

                    I can comment further when you provide the above info.

                    Regards,
                    Bill

                    On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                    > Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
                    > was
                    > illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                    > indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                    > parents weren't married.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                    > subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
                    > birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                    was
                    > a
                    > very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                    > "died"
                    > at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
                    > one
                    > of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                    > infancy.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Janet
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On
                    > Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                    > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                    > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi, everyone!
                    > I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
                    > have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                    >
                    > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                    > followed
                    > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                    what
                    > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                    > don't
                    > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                    > mean?
                    >
                    > 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                    father's
                    > name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                    > only
                    > written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                    it
                    > right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                    or
                    > dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                    you
                    > solve this mysteries?
                    >
                    > I would really like to read your opinions,
                    > Thanks as always,
                    >
                    > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                    > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                    > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Bill Tarkulich
                    http://www.iabsi.com

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                    http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                    SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    Yahoo! Groups Links






                    ---------------------------------
                    Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                    always stay connected to friends.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bill Tarkulich
                    If DRAVCI is the same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built in 1806. I
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      If DRAVCI is the same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                      book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                      in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                      Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                      That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                      Bill

                      On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                      > Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information about
                      > Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                      > since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                      > access to archives.
                      > Thanks - Chris
                      >
                      > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                      > First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                      > In many
                      > churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                      > bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                      > came together in one place Again, not always.
                      >
                      > Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                      > information,
                      > even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                      > contrary.
                      > Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
                      > records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                      > start somewhere else.
                      > Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                      > village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                      > lost,
                      > some misplaced, some misfiled.
                      >
                      > These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                      > confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                      > archives has.
                      >
                      > Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                      > it.
                      > Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                      > archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
                      > the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                      > church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                      >
                      > See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                      > other
                      > questions about how far back church records go.
                      >
                      > You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                      > event
                      > had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                      > village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                      > right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                      > before
                      > you try to cast your net too wide.
                      > If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                      > village
                      > or region can be helpful also.
                      >
                      > Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati
                      > )
                      > district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                      > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                      > district was a village called Esztrény (see
                      > http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                      > opinion,
                      > doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                      > abbreviation.
                      >
                      > Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                      > "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                      > Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
                      > sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                      > sample
                      > page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                      >
                      > You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                      > I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                      > devote
                      > to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                      > questions
                      > coming, and remind me from time to time.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Bill
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                      > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                      >
                      > Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
                      > little information I have.
                      >
                      > -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
                      > from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                      > handwritten
                      > and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                      > written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                      >
                      > -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
                      > jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                      > priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                      > really
                      > don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                      > perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
                      > doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                      > years.
                      > "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
                      > In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
                      > built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                      > but
                      > years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
                      > and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                      >
                      > - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                      >
                      > - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                      > received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                      > So,
                      > yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                      > Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
                      > Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                      > Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                      >
                      > -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                      > have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                      >
                      > That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
                      > that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                      > get
                      > to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
                      > there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                      >
                      > Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                      > Hugs from Argentina,
                      > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                      >
                      > From: Bill Tarkulich
                      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                      >
                      > I'll take a shot at #1:
                      > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                      > followed
                      > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
                      > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                      > don't
                      > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                      > mean?
                      >
                      > - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                      > original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                      > someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                      > annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                      > genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                      >
                      > - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
                      > to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                      > further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                      > the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                      > example, in the case of rape.
                      >
                      > - What religion are the records you examined?
                      >
                      > - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                      > churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                      > years ago.
                      >
                      > - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                      > mother's birth record in the village?
                      >
                      > I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Bill
                      >
                      > On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                      >> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
                      >> was
                      >> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                      >> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                      >> parents weren't married.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                      >> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
                      >> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                      > was
                      >> a
                      >> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                      >> "died"
                      >> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
                      >> one
                      >> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                      >> infancy.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Janet
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> _____
                      >>
                      >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                      >> On
                      >> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                      >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                      >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Hi, everyone!
                      >> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
                      >> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                      >>
                      >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                      >> followed
                      >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                      > what
                      >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                      >> don't
                      >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                      >> mean?
                      >>
                      >> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                      > father's
                      >> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                      >> only
                      >> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                      > it
                      >> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                      > or
                      >> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                      > you
                      >> solve this mysteries?
                      >>
                      >> I would really like to read your opinions,
                      >> Thanks as always,
                      >>
                      >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      > --
                      > Bill Tarkulich
                      > http://www.iabsi.com
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                      > always stay connected to friends.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      Bill Tarkulich
                      http://www.iabsi.com
                    • christopher gajda
                      Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of the Church, but that s not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for trying!!! Chris

                        Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                        book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                        in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                        Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                        That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                        Bill

                        On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                        > Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information about
                        > Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                        > since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                        > access to archives.
                        > Thanks - Chris
                        >
                        > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                        > First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                        > In many
                        > churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                        > bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                        > came together in one place Again, not always.
                        >
                        > Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                        > information,
                        > even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                        > contrary.
                        > Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and D
                        > records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                        > start somewhere else.
                        > Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                        > village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                        > lost,
                        > some misplaced, some misfiled.
                        >
                        > These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                        > confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                        > archives has.
                        >
                        > Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                        > it.
                        > Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                        > archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava) in
                        > the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                        > church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                        >
                        > See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                        > other
                        > questions about how far back church records go.
                        >
                        > You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                        > event
                        > had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                        > village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                        > right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                        > before
                        > you try to cast your net too wide.
                        > If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                        > village
                        > or region can be helpful also.
                        >
                        > Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou (Rimaszombati
                        > )
                        > district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                        > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                        > district was a village called Esztrény (see
                        > http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                        > opinion,
                        > doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                        > abbreviation.
                        >
                        > Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                        > "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                        > Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in. It
                        > sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                        > sample
                        > page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                        >
                        > You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                        > I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                        > devote
                        > to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                        > questions
                        > coming, and remind me from time to time.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Bill
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                        > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                        >
                        > Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with the
                        > little information I have.
                        >
                        > -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish records
                        > from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                        > handwritten
                        > and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                        > written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                        >
                        > -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then they
                        > jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                        > priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                        > really
                        > don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                        > perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I really
                        > doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                        > years.
                        > "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year 1566.
                        > In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it was
                        > built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                        > but
                        > years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838, 1860
                        > and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                        >
                        > - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                        >
                        > - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                        > received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                        > So,
                        > yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                        > Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are Roman
                        > Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                        > Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                        >
                        > -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                        > have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                        >
                        > That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any possibility
                        > that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                        > get
                        > to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or if
                        > there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                        >
                        > Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                        > Hugs from Argentina,
                        > Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                        >
                        > From: Bill Tarkulich
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                        > Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                        >
                        > I'll take a shot at #1:
                        > 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                        > followed
                        > by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea what
                        > does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                        > don't
                        > match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                        > mean?
                        >
                        > - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                        > original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                        > someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                        > annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                        > genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                        >
                        > - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is important
                        > to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                        > further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                        > the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                        > example, in the case of rape.
                        >
                        > - What religion are the records you examined?
                        >
                        > - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                        > churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                        > years ago.
                        >
                        > - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                        > mother's birth record in the village?
                        >
                        > I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Bill
                        >
                        > On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                        >> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the child
                        >> was
                        >> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                        >> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                        >> parents weren't married.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                        >> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the child's
                        >> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                        > was
                        >> a
                        >> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                        >> "died"
                        >> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman in
                        >> one
                        >> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                        >> infancy.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Janet
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> _____
                        >>
                        >> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                        >> On
                        >> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                        >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                        >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Hi, everyone!
                        >> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births and
                        >> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                        >>
                        >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                        >> followed
                        >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                        > what
                        >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                        >> don't
                        >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                        >> mean?
                        >>
                        >> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                        > father's
                        >> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                        >> only
                        >> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                        > it
                        >> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                        > or
                        >> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                        > you
                        >> solve this mysteries?
                        >>
                        >> I would really like to read your opinions,
                        >> Thanks as always,
                        >>
                        >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        > --
                        > Bill Tarkulich
                        > http://www.iabsi.com
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                        > always stay connected to friends.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Bill Tarkulich
                        http://www.iabsi.com






                        ---------------------------------
                        Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                        Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bill Tarkulich
                        I presume you have the historical information on the church and need not that either then? Regards, Bill ... -- Bill Tarkulich http://www.iabsi.com
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I presume you have the historical information on the church and need not
                          that either then?
                          Regards,
                          Bill
                          On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                          > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
                          > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                          > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
                          > trying!!! Chris
                          >
                          > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
                          > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                          > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                          > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                          > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                          > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                          > Bill
                          >
                          > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                          >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
                          >> about
                          >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                          >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                          >> access to archives.
                          >> Thanks - Chris
                          >>
                          >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                          >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                          >> In many
                          >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                          >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                          >> came together in one place Again, not always.
                          >>
                          >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                          >> information,
                          >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                          >> contrary.
                          >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
                          >> D
                          >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                          >> start somewhere else.
                          >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                          >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                          >> lost,
                          >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
                          >>
                          >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                          >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                          >> archives has.
                          >>
                          >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                          >> it.
                          >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                          >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
                          >> in
                          >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                          >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                          >>
                          >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                          >> other
                          >> questions about how far back church records go.
                          >>
                          >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                          >> event
                          >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                          >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                          >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                          >> before
                          >> you try to cast your net too wide.
                          >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                          >> village
                          >> or region can be helpful also.
                          >>
                          >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
                          >> (Rimaszombati
                          >> )
                          >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                          >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                          >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
                          >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                          >> opinion,
                          >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                          >> abbreviation.
                          >>
                          >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                          >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                          >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
                          >> It
                          >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                          >> sample
                          >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                          >>
                          >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                          >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                          >> devote
                          >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                          >> questions
                          >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
                          >>
                          >> Regards,
                          >>
                          >> Bill
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> -----Original Message-----
                          >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                          >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                          >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                          >>
                          >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
                          >> the
                          >> little information I have.
                          >>
                          >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
                          >> records
                          >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                          >> handwritten
                          >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                          >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                          >>
                          >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
                          >> they
                          >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                          >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                          >> really
                          >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                          >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
                          >> really
                          >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                          >> years.
                          >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
                          >> 1566.
                          >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
                          >> was
                          >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                          >> but
                          >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
                          >> 1860
                          >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                          >>
                          >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                          >>
                          >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                          >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                          >> So,
                          >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                          >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
                          >> Roman
                          >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                          >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                          >>
                          >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                          >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                          >>
                          >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
                          >> possibility
                          >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                          >> get
                          >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
                          >> if
                          >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                          >>
                          >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                          >> Hugs from Argentina,
                          >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                          >>
                          >> From: Bill Tarkulich
                          >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                          >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                          >>
                          >> I'll take a shot at #1:
                          >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                          >> followed
                          >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                          >> what
                          >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                          >> don't
                          >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                          >> mean?
                          >>
                          >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                          >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                          >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                          >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                          >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                          >>
                          >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
                          >> important
                          >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                          >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                          >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                          >> example, in the case of rape.
                          >>
                          >> - What religion are the records you examined?
                          >>
                          >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                          >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                          >> years ago.
                          >>
                          >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                          >> mother's birth record in the village?
                          >>
                          >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                          >>
                          >> Regards,
                          >> Bill
                          >>
                          >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                          >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
                          >>> child
                          >>> was
                          >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                          >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                          >>> parents weren't married.
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                          >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
                          >>> child's
                          >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                          >> was
                          >>> a
                          >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                          >>> "died"
                          >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
                          >>> in
                          >>> one
                          >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                          >>> infancy.
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> Janet
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> _____
                          >>>
                          >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                          >>> On
                          >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                          >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                          >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> Hi, everyone!
                          >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
                          >>> and
                          >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                          >>>
                          >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                          >>> followed
                          >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                          >> what
                          >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                          >>> don't
                          >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                          >>> mean?
                          >>>
                          >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                          >> father's
                          >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                          >>> only
                          >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                          >> it
                          >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                          >> or
                          >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                          >> you
                          >>> solve this mysteries?
                          >>>
                          >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
                          >>> Thanks as always,
                          >>>
                          >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                          >>>
                          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                          >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                          >>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >> --
                          >> Bill Tarkulich
                          >> http://www.iabsi.com
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                          >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                          >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ---------------------------------
                          >> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
                          >> always stay connected to friends.
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                          >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                          >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          > --
                          > Bill Tarkulich
                          > http://www.iabsi.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                          > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          Bill Tarkulich
                          http://www.iabsi.com
                        • christopher gajda
                          All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I d appreciate it!!!!!! Bill Tarkulich wrote: I
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 4, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd appreciate it!!!!!!

                            Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: I presume you have the historical information on the church and need not
                            that either then?
                            Regards,
                            Bill
                            On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                            > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
                            > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                            > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
                            > trying!!! Chris
                            >
                            > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
                            > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                            > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                            > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                            > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                            > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                            > Bill
                            >
                            > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                            >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
                            >> about
                            >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                            >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                            >> access to archives.
                            >> Thanks - Chris
                            >>
                            >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                            >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                            >> In many
                            >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                            >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                            >> came together in one place Again, not always.
                            >>
                            >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                            >> information,
                            >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                            >> contrary.
                            >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
                            >> D
                            >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                            >> start somewhere else.
                            >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                            >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                            >> lost,
                            >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
                            >>
                            >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                            >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                            >> archives has.
                            >>
                            >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                            >> it.
                            >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                            >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
                            >> in
                            >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                            >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                            >>
                            >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                            >> other
                            >> questions about how far back church records go.
                            >>
                            >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                            >> event
                            >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                            >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                            >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                            >> before
                            >> you try to cast your net too wide.
                            >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                            >> village
                            >> or region can be helpful also.
                            >>
                            >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
                            >> (Rimaszombati
                            >> )
                            >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                            >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                            >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
                            >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                            >> opinion,
                            >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                            >> abbreviation.
                            >>
                            >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                            >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                            >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
                            >> It
                            >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                            >> sample
                            >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                            >>
                            >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                            >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                            >> devote
                            >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                            >> questions
                            >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
                            >>
                            >> Regards,
                            >>
                            >> Bill
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> -----Original Message-----
                            >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                            >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                            >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                            >>
                            >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
                            >> the
                            >> little information I have.
                            >>
                            >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
                            >> records
                            >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                            >> handwritten
                            >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                            >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                            >>
                            >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
                            >> they
                            >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                            >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                            >> really
                            >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                            >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
                            >> really
                            >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                            >> years.
                            >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
                            >> 1566.
                            >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
                            >> was
                            >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                            >> but
                            >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
                            >> 1860
                            >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                            >>
                            >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                            >>
                            >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                            >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                            >> So,
                            >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                            >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
                            >> Roman
                            >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                            >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                            >>
                            >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                            >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                            >>
                            >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
                            >> possibility
                            >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                            >> get
                            >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
                            >> if
                            >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                            >>
                            >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                            >> Hugs from Argentina,
                            >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                            >>
                            >> From: Bill Tarkulich
                            >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                            >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                            >>
                            >> I'll take a shot at #1:
                            >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                            >> followed
                            >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                            >> what
                            >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                            >> don't
                            >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                            >> mean?
                            >>
                            >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                            >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                            >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                            >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                            >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                            >>
                            >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
                            >> important
                            >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                            >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                            >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                            >> example, in the case of rape.
                            >>
                            >> - What religion are the records you examined?
                            >>
                            >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                            >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                            >> years ago.
                            >>
                            >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                            >> mother's birth record in the village?
                            >>
                            >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                            >>
                            >> Regards,
                            >> Bill
                            >>
                            >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                            >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
                            >>> child
                            >>> was
                            >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                            >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                            >>> parents weren't married.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                            >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
                            >>> child's
                            >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                            >> was
                            >>> a
                            >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                            >>> "died"
                            >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
                            >>> in
                            >>> one
                            >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                            >>> infancy.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> Janet
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> _____
                            >>>
                            >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                            >>> On
                            >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                            >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                            >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> Hi, everyone!
                            >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
                            >>> and
                            >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                            >>>
                            >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                            >>> followed
                            >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                            >> what
                            >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                            >>> don't
                            >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                            >>> mean?
                            >>>
                            >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                            >> father's
                            >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                            >>> only
                            >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                            >> it
                            >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                            >> or
                            >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                            >> you
                            >>> solve this mysteries?
                            >>>
                            >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
                            >>> Thanks as always,
                            >>>
                            >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                            >>>
                            >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                            >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                            >>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>
                            >> --
                            >> Bill Tarkulich
                            >> http://www.iabsi.com
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                            >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                            >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ---------------------------------
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                            >> always stay connected to friends.
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                            >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                            >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            > --
                            > Bill Tarkulich
                            > http://www.iabsi.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
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                            --
                            Bill Tarkulich
                            http://www.iabsi.com






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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bill Tarkulich
                            There are 2-3 paragraphs of history about the church (and undoubtedly the village). It s written in Ukrainian. I can scan and send it to you sometimes this
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 5, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              There are 2-3 paragraphs of history about the church (and undoubtedly the
                              village). It's written in Ukrainian. I can scan and send it to you
                              sometimes this week. Look for an email from me with an attachment
                              Tues/Wed. I hope I have your email somewhere. If possible, send me a
                              private message with your address.

                              Bill

                              On Sun, February 4, 2007 10:10 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                              > All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd
                              > appreciate it!!!!!!
                              >
                            • Bill Tarkulich
                              DRAWCE = UNGDAROK 1910 Census pop 1103: 754 magyar, 49 slovak, 297 Ruthene. 125 Roman C., 867 Greek C, 98 Jews Bill ... From: christopher gajda
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 10, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                DRAWCE = UNGDAROK

                                1910 Census
                                pop 1103: 754 magyar, 49 slovak, 297 Ruthene. 125 Roman C., 867 Greek C, 98
                                Jews


                                Bill


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: christopher gajda [mailto:christophergajda@...]
                                Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 10:11 PM
                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [S-R] DRAVCI village

                                All I have is that it was built in 1806 - if you have anything else, I'd
                                appreciate it!!!!!!

                                Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: I presume you have
                                the historical information on the church and need not
                                that either then?
                                Regards,
                                Bill
                                On Sun, February 4, 2007 9:33 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                                > Yes Bill, this is the same village. Thanks for the offer of the photo of
                                > the Church, but that's not neccessary - a few years ago I hired a Slovak
                                > photographer, Milos Kraynak, to take some pictures of Dravci. Thanks for
                                > trying!!! Chris
                                >
                                > Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote: If DRAVCI is the
                                > same village as DRAVTSI in UZHHOROD county, I have a
                                > book entry and 1996 photo of the church of the Nativity of the BVM, built
                                > in 1806. I would be happy to scan and email you a copy later this week.
                                > Source: Churches of Ukraine Zakarpattia, Syrokhman, 2000.
                                > That's all I have. I have no civil information on the village.
                                > Bill
                                >
                                > On Sun, February 4, 2007 7:48 pm, christopher gajda wrote:
                                >> Bill - do you happen to have any "mesta a obce" or other information
                                >> about
                                >> Dravci (Ungdarocz)???? Any information would be welcome. Unfortunately,
                                >> since Dravci is now in Zakarpatya Ukraine, the LDS hasn't been given
                                >> access to archives.
                                >> Thanks - Chris
                                >>
                                >> Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
                                >> First, It's not strange to see records kind of cobbled together.
                                >> In many
                                >> churches there were two sets of records kept, one local and one for the
                                >> bishop. When collected by the Hungary government in 1895, some, not all
                                >> came together in one place Again, not always.
                                >>
                                >> Second, different churches had different schemes for recording
                                >> information,
                                >> even though the higher ups had given specific instructions to the
                                >> contrary.
                                >> Rural churches were the most non-conforming. Often times, the b, m, and
                                >> D
                                >> records are separate sections, until they "run out of room" and have to
                                >> start somewhere else.
                                >> Third, not all records survived for a multitude of reasons. For every
                                >> village there is probably a different explanation. Some may have been
                                >> lost,
                                >> some misplaced, some misfiled.
                                >>
                                >> These missing records are a clue, as you have eluded to. I am fairly
                                >> confident that the FHL has recorded every church record the Slovak state
                                >> archives has.
                                >>
                                >> Sometimes the priest indeed was gone for a few years, but that was about
                                >> it.
                                >> Have you looked at neighboring villages? According to the slovak state
                                >> archive cross-reference, there are Reformed church records (of Kokava)
                                >> in
                                >> the Rimavska Sobota village records. This is in addition to the primary
                                >> church records you have found. Have you looked there?
                                >>
                                >> See my other note on "family movements" with regards to answering your
                                >> other
                                >> questions about how far back church records go.
                                >>
                                >> You also need to look at the village history, to be certain some major
                                >> event
                                >> had not affected the village recordkeeping. I can send you the brief
                                >> village history from "mesta a obce" if you want. I'm really quite busy
                                >> right now and can't offer too much more of my time. I'd look locally
                                >> before
                                >> you try to cast your net too wide.
                                >> If you can't find a village history, finding one of a nearby larger
                                >> village
                                >> or region can be helpful also.
                                >>
                                >> Your village was in GEMER (Gomor) county, Lom nad Rimavicou
                                >> (Rimaszombati
                                >> )
                                >> district. Kokava was a pretty significant village in 1910 when these
                                >> http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/gomork.jpg maps were drawn. In that
                                >> district was a village called Esztrény (see
                                >> http://www.bogardi.com/gen/g124.shtml ) That's a wild goose, in my
                                >> opinion,
                                >> doesn't mean anything, but it's an idea. I still think it's an
                                >> abbreviation.
                                >>
                                >> Many times abbreviations are local in origin. What time period did the
                                >> "EST" abbreviation exist. Try to seek out possible word formations in
                                >> Magyar or Slovak or whatever language the church books are rendered in.
                                >> It
                                >> sure seems like it would be "estimated". Can you can and post/mail a
                                >> sample
                                >> page? Sometimes seeing it reveals a lot more than a transcription.
                                >>
                                >> You are taking a lot of initiative and asking great questions.
                                >> I wish my answers could be more "meaty." I'm really short on time to
                                >> devote
                                >> to forums for the next couple of months, but feel free to keep the
                                >> questions
                                >> coming, and remind me from time to time.
                                >>
                                >> Regards,
                                >>
                                >> Bill
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> -----Original Message-----
                                >> From: Maria Eugenia Kromholc [mailto:mariuk@...]
                                >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:16 PM
                                >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                >> Subject: Re: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                                >>
                                >> Hi, Bill, thanks for you reply. I will try to clarify the doubts with
                                >> the
                                >> little information I have.
                                >>
                                >> -The records I am looking at are the original evangelical parrish
                                >> records
                                >> from the town of Kokava nad Rimavicou (Slovakia). Yes, they are
                                >> handwritten
                                >> and as I told you, I found that below some of the children's entries is
                                >> written: EST. 1888-1904 (numbers vary).
                                >>
                                >> -The birth records I am looking at start in 1837, then 1838 and then
                                >> they
                                >> jump to 1860. This is pretty strange because on the same 1838 page, the
                                >> priest draw a line dividing the page and started afresh in 1860. So I
                                >> really
                                >> don't know what to think, because there are a lot of years to think that
                                >> perhaps the priest died and they had to wait till a new one came. I
                                >> really
                                >> doubt a village in those times could be without a priest for so many
                                >> years.
                                >> "Important monument of Kokava is an evengelical church from the year
                                >> 1566.
                                >> In 1911 it was devastated during catastrophic wildfire but in 1913 it
                                >> was
                                >> built up again". (www.gemer.org). I thought about this as an explanation
                                >> but
                                >> years don't fit. The EST thing I have found it along the 1837, 1838,
                                >> 1860
                                >> and 1861 pages, that is up to where I have read.
                                >>
                                >> - The records belong to the evangelical church.
                                >>
                                >> - I cannot tell you the population at that time because I still haven't
                                >> received the census microfilm. Today there are 3117 people living there.
                                >> So,
                                >> yes, 150 years ago I'd say there were less than 1,000 inhabitants.
                                >> Concerning the number of churches: "The others sacral monuments are
                                >> Roman
                                >> Catholic church from 1820, chapel at Kukucínová street from 1847 and
                                >> Jewishly synagogue from 1912" (www.gemer.org).
                                >>
                                >> -I haven't found the mother's birth records in 1837 or 1838, so she must
                                >> have been born before or after, and after jumps to 1860.
                                >>
                                >> That is all the information I have. Do you think there is any
                                >> possibility
                                >> that the LDS get to microfilm older than 1837 parrish records? How do we
                                >> get
                                >> to know in what year they started registering births and marriages, or
                                >> if
                                >> there exist -though not microfilmed- older records?
                                >>
                                >> Thanks once more for all your thoughts about this matter,
                                >> Hugs from Argentina,
                                >> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                                >>
                                >> From: Bill Tarkulich
                                >> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:19 AM
                                >> Subject: RE: [S-R] Doubts about church records KOKAVA
                                >>
                                >> I'll take a shot at #1:
                                >> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                                >> followed
                                >> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                                >> what
                                >> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                                >> don't
                                >> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                                >> mean?
                                >>
                                >> - What records are you looking at? Are you looking at a microfilm of the
                                >> original handwritten document? Or perhaps a "transcribed" version that
                                >> someone has re-written or re-typed? I smell a rat, because this type of
                                >> annotation seems much more western (i.e., US) -style. EST is a common
                                >> genealogy abbreviation in *English* for "estimated".
                                >>
                                >> - What is the year(s) of the birth records you reference? It is
                                >> important
                                >> to know the history of the village at this juncture in order to deduce
                                >> further clues. Was it during a war? During particularly chaotic periods,
                                >> the answer that the "father was unknown" may be entirely valid, for
                                >> example, in the case of rape.
                                >>
                                >> - What religion are the records you examined?
                                >>
                                >> - Tell me about the village - the population at the time, the number of
                                >> churches. I'll guess it's a small town, of about 1,000 inhabitants 100
                                >> years ago.
                                >>
                                >> - Did the mother originate in this village? i.e., do you find the
                                >> mother's birth record in the village?
                                >>
                                >> I can comment further when you provide the above info.
                                >>
                                >> Regards,
                                >> Bill
                                >>
                                >> On Tue, January 30, 2007 8:52 am, Janet Kozlay wrote:
                                >>> Your second question is much easier to answer. As you suspect, the
                                >>> child
                                >>> was
                                >>> illegitimate. If the (legitimate) father were deceased, it would have
                                >>> indicated that. Occasionally you will find a father listed even if the
                                >>> parents weren't married.
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> If these baptismal records are significant in your research, look for a
                                >>> subsequent marriage of the mother. This would "legitimatize" the
                                >>> child's
                                >>> birth. Also check for death records for the child. Since illegitimacy
                                >> was
                                >>> a
                                >>> very serious disability for a child's future, many of these children
                                >>> "died"
                                >>> at young ages. Sad but true. I have recently run across a young woman
                                >>> in
                                >>> one
                                >>> of my lines who had two illegitimate children, both of whom died in
                                >>> infancy.
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> Janet
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> _____
                                >>>
                                >>> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                >>> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
                                >>> On
                                >>> Behalf Of Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                                >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:12 AM
                                >>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                >>> Subject: [S-R] Doubts about church records
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> Hi, everyone!
                                >>> I have been looking at Kokava's ev. church records concerning births
                                >>> and
                                >>> have a few doubts I hope you can help me with (as you always do) :)
                                >>>
                                >>> 1) I have found that below some registrations there's written: EST.
                                >>> followed
                                >>> by two numbers, like: EST 1884-1908. I don't have the slightest idea
                                >> what
                                >>> does this mean, mostly because those numbers (that are all different)
                                >>> don't
                                >>> match birth or death dates. Does anybody have a clue of what this might
                                >>> mean?
                                >>>
                                >>> 2) I have also found that some birth entries either don't have a
                                >> father's
                                >>> name or the father does not have a surname. (In this books, babies are
                                >>> only
                                >>> written down by their first names). So what do you think about this? Is
                                >> it
                                >>> right to assume that the baby without a father's name was illegitimate
                                >> or
                                >>> dead? And when you come across no surnames, are there any tips to help
                                >> you
                                >>> solve this mysteries?
                                >>>
                                >>> I would really like to read your opinions,
                                >>> Thanks as always,
                                >>>
                                >>> Maria Eugenia Kromholc
                                >>>
                                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                >>> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>
                                >> --
                                >> Bill Tarkulich
                                >> http://www.iabsi.com
                                >>
                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>
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                                > Bill Tarkulich
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                                Bill Tarkulich
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