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Re: [S-R] Re: They Changed My Name At Ellis Island Myth

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  • Don Havlicek
    Sorry, This is still a myth, as ALL passengers arriving at Ellis Island carried papers with their name, etc., therein. ALSO, they were checked into the port
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 8, 2007
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      Sorry,
      This is still a myth, as ALL passengers arriving at Ellis Island carried
      papers with their name, etc., therein.
      ALSO, they were checked into the port using the SHIP PASSENGER MANIFEST,
      which was written WHEN THEY BOARDED the ship, NOT at Ellis Island.
      The myth still lives.
      Don Havlicek
      Edmore, MI

      packard40@... wrote:

      > G'day all...
      >
      > To dovetail David Baloga's remarks, it's no myth that names were
      > changed at
      > Ellis Island:
      >
      > A man came our small town from Russia through Ellis Island. The
      > immigration
      > person at the desk couldn't spell his name: "Max Pietrokofski," so he
      > asked
      > what work do you do? Max replied with hand gestures, he was a tailor.
      > That's how his name got changed to: "Max Tailor" at Ellis Island.
      >
      > Many years later he went to court and changed his name back to "Max
      > Pietrokofski."
      >
      > Marshall...
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Janet Kozlay
      Dear Marshall, PLEASE read the article at http://www.genealogy.com/88_donna.html. We ve all heard the stories, and they just aren t true. No one at Ellis
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 8, 2007
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        Dear Marshall,



        PLEASE read the article at http://www.genealogy.com/88_donna.html.



        We've all heard the stories, and they just aren't true. No one at Ellis
        Island asked what their name was. It was written on the ship's manifest, and
        that was based on the paperwork the immigrant had at the port of
        embarkation.



        Unfortunately I cannot seem to access the article by the Immigration and
        Naturalization Service, but I recall it set out quite clearly why this is a
        myth.



        Check for yourself. There was no one who was processed at Ellis Island named
        Max Tailor. If there is ANY truth to this tale, it likely happened after
        immigration, perhaps when the individual tried to find work. Further, there
        is no indication of anyone in the Census records with the name Pietrokofski.
        The closest ones are Max Pietrowisk or Pietrowiak in Milwaukee and Max
        Pietroski or Pietrowski in Michigan. Both of them were born in the U.S.



        The story just doesn't hold water no matter how you look at it.



        Janet





        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of packard40@...
        Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:11 PM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: They Changed My Name At Ellis Island Myth



        G'day all...

        To dovetail David Baloga's remarks, it's no myth that names were changed at
        Ellis Island:

        A man came our small town from Russia through Ellis Island. The immigration
        person at the desk couldn't spell his name: "Max Pietrokofski," so he asked
        what work do you do? Max replied with hand gestures, he was a tailor.
        That's how his name got changed to: "Max Tailor" at Ellis Island.

        Many years later he went to court and changed his name back to "Max
        Pietrokofski."

        Marshall...

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill Tarkulich
        Marshall, Sorry,I don t buy it. Manifests were created at the port of departure by the shipping concern. If this behavior was to occur it would have been
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 8, 2007
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          Marshall,

          Sorry,I don't buy it.
          Manifests were created at the port of departure by the shipping concern.
          If this behavior was to occur it would have been there. The INS
          (then-Department of Commerce) role was to verify information and annotate
          as required. The INS-BCIS has written with regard to this misconception.
          Regards,
          Bill

          On Mon, January 8, 2007 12:11 pm, packard40@... wrote:
          > G'day all...
          >
          > To dovetail David Baloga's remarks, it's no myth that names were changed
          > at
          > Ellis Island:
          >
          > A man came our small town from Russia through Ellis Island. The
          > immigration
          > person at the desk couldn't spell his name: "Max Pietrokofski," so he
          > asked
          > what work do you do? Max replied with hand gestures, he was a tailor.
          > That's how his name got changed to: "Max Tailor" at Ellis Island.
          >
          > Many years later he went to court and changed his name back to "Max
          > Pietrokofski."
          >
          > Marshall...
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
          Bill Tarkulich
          http://www.iabsi.com
        • Bill Tarkulich
          American Names / Declaring Independence by Marian L. Smith, INS Historian Note the following story, which is a perfect specimen of a peculiar quality of the
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 8, 2007
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            American Names / Declaring Independence
            by Marian L. Smith, INS Historian

            Note the following story, which is a perfect specimen of a peculiar
            quality of the American mind, one bearing no small relation to
            Independence Day:

            I have a friend who tells the story of her ancestor coming from one of
            the Slavic countries and he, of course, could speak no English. At
            Ellis Island when he was being processed and any question was asked,
            he would nod his head and smile. Since all he did was smile when they
            asked his name, the clerk wrote down 'Smiley' for his surname. That
            was the family surname from then on.

            Whenever I see one of these "name change" stories, I'm reminded of the
            beautiful creation stories of the Native Americans, "How the Bear Lost his
            Tail," for example. These stories contain an important truth. They help us
            understand our world. But we are foolish if we take each one literally,
            without further investigation. The idea that all bears have short tails
            because an ancient bear's tail was frozen into the ice is not a very
            scientific explanation. Similarly, the idea that an entire family's name
            was changed by one clerk--especially one at Ellis Island--is seldom
            supported by historical research and analysis.

            American name change stories tend to be apocryphal, that is, they
            developed later to explain events shrouded in the mist of time. Given the
            facts of US immigration procedures at Ellis Island, the above story
            becomes suspect. In the story, the immigrant arrives at Ellis Island and a
            record is then created by someone who cannot communicate with the
            immigrant, and so assigns the immigrant a descriptive name. In fact,
            passenger lists were not created at Ellis Island. They were created
            abroad, beginning close to the immigrant's home, when the immigrant
            purchased his ticket. It is unlikely that anyone at the local steamship
            office was unable to communicate with this man. His name was most likely
            recorded with a high degree of accuracy at that time.

            It is true that immigrant names were mangled in the process. The first
            ticket clerk may have misspelled the name (assuming there was a "correct
            spelling"--a big assumption). If the immigrant made several connections in
            his journey, several records might be created at each juncture. Every
            transcription of his information afforded an opportunity to misspell or
            alter his name. Thus the more direct the immigrant's route to his
            destination, the less likely his name changed in any way.

            The report that the clerk "wrote down" the immigrants surname is suspect.
            During immigration inspection at Ellis Island, the immigrant confronted an
            inspector who had a passenger list already created abroad. That inspector
            operated under rules and regulations ordering that he was not to change
            the or identifying information found for any immigrant UNLESS requested by
            the immigrant, and unless inspection demonstrated the original information
            was in error.

            Furthermore, it is nearly impossible that no one could communicate with
            the immigrant. One third of all immigrant inspectors at Ellis Island early
            this century were themselves foreign-born, and all immigrant inspectors
            spoke an of three languages. They were assigned to inspect immigrant
            groups based on the languages they spoke. If the inspector could not
            communicate, Ellis Island employed an army of interpreters full time, and
            would call in temporary interpreters under contract to translate for
            immigrants speaking the most obscure tongues.

            Despite these facts, the Ellis-Island-name-change-story (or Castle Garden,
            or earlier versions of the same story) is as American as apple pie (and
            probably as common in Canada).

            Why?

            The explanation lies in ideas as simple as language and cultural
            differences, and as complex as the root of American culture. We all know
            names have been Anglicized in America (even the word "Anglicized" has been
            Americanized!). As any kindergartener learns, we live in a world where
            people ask our name then write it down without asking us how to spell or
            pronounce that name. Immigrants in America were typically asked their name
            and entered in official records by those who had "made it" in America and
            thus were already English-speaking (i.e., teachers, landlords, employers,
            judges etc.). The fact that those with the power to create official
            records were English-speaking explains much about small changes, over
            time, in the spelling of certain names.

            Many immigrants welcomed this change. Anyone from Eastern Europe, with a
            name LONG on consonants and short on vowels, learned that his name often
            got in the way of a job interview or became the subject of ridicule at his
            child's school. Any change that might smooth their way to the American
            dream was seen as a step in the right direction. Perhaps this was the case
            with Mr. Smiley. It was the case of another family from Russia, named
            Smiloff or Smilikoff, who emigrated to Canada at the turn of the century.
            By the time their son immigrated to the US in 1911, his name had become
            Smiley. But some name changes are not so easy to trace. Rather than a
            different spelling of the same-sounding name, an entirely new name was
            adopted. These are the most American stories of all.

            "Who is this new man, this American?" asked de Toqueville. He was Adam in
            the Garden, man beginning again, leaving all the history and heartbreak of
            the Old World behind. The idea that what made America unique was the
            opportunity for man to live in a state of nature, a society of farmers
            whose perception of Truth is unfettered by ancient social and political
            conventions lies at the base of Jeffersonian democratic theory. The New
            World became a place for mankind to begin again, a place where every man
            can be re-born and re-create himself. In such circumstances, the adoption
            of a new name is not surprising. Nor is it surprising in the cases of
            immigrants who came to America to abandon a wife and family or to escape
            conscription in a European army. There were all kinds of reasons,
            political and practical, to take a new name.

            A newspaper in California recently ran the story of a Vietnamese immigrant
            with a long, Vietnamese name so strange-looking to Anglo eyes. The young
            man came to this country and began to work and study. He began every day
            by stopping at a convenience store to buy a "bonus pak" of chewing gum.
            Chewing all those sticks of gum got him through long days of working
            several jobs and studying English at night. When he finally naturalized as
            a US citizen, he requested his name be changed to Don Bonus--the surname
            taken from the "Bonus Pak" and chosen to signify all his work and effort
            to become an American. He was a new man.

            If not for the newspaper story, we would not understand this name change.
            Mr. Bonus' naturalization papers would simply record the name change but
            not the reasons behind it. If he had not naturalized, his Bonus family
            descendents generations from now would be at quite a loss to explain the
            origin of their name.

            The documentation of name changes during US naturalization procedure have
            only been required since 1906. Prior to that time, only those immigrants
            who went to court and had their name officially changed and recorded leave
            us any record. Congress wrote the requirement in 1906 because of the
            well-known fact that immigrants DID change their names, and tended to do
            so within the first 5 years after arrival. Without any record, immigrants
            and their descendents are left to construct their own explanations of a
            name change. Often, when asked by grandchildren why they changed their
            name, old immigrants would say "it was changed at Ellis Island."

            People take this literally, as if the clerk at Ellis Island actually wrote
            down another name. But one should consider another interpretation of
            "Ellis Island." That immigrant is remembering his initial confrontation
            with American culture. Ellis Island was not only immigrant processing, it
            was finding one's way around the city, learning to speak English, getting
            one's first job or apartment, going to school, and adjusting one's name to
            a new spelling or pronunciation. All these experiences, for the first few
            years, were the "Ellis Island experience." When recalling their
            immigration decades before, many immigrants referred to the entire
            experience as "Ellis Island."

            So, on this day when we celebrate the breaking of our bond with the Old
            World, let us welcome Mr. Smiley and all the new immigrants who will, in
            the next few years as they become Americans, make changes to their name
            which will confuse and confound their descendents for generations to come.
          • Janet Kozlay
            Thank you, Bill. As in so many times in the past, you have come to the rescue. I believe this is the article published by INS which I was unable to access.
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 8, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you, Bill. As in so many times in the past, you have come to the
              rescue. I believe this is the article published by INS which I was unable to
              access.



              Janet





              _____

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Bill Tarkulich
              Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:35 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: They Changed My Name At Ellis Island Myth



              American Names / Declaring Independence
              by Marian L. Smith, INS Historian

              Note the following story, which is a perfect specimen of a peculiar
              quality of the American mind, one bearing no small relation to
              Independence Day:

              I have a friend who tells the story of her ancestor coming from one of
              the Slavic countries and he, of course, could speak no English. At
              Ellis Island when he was being processed and any question was asked,
              he would nod his head and smile. Since all he did was smile when they
              asked his name, the clerk wrote down 'Smiley' for his surname. That
              was the family surname from then on.

              Whenever I see one of these "name change" stories, I'm reminded of the
              beautiful creation stories of the Native Americans, "How the Bear Lost his
              Tail," for example. These stories contain an important truth. They help us
              understand our world. But we are foolish if we take each one literally,
              without further investigation. The idea that all bears have short tails
              because an ancient bear's tail was frozen into the ice is not a very
              scientific explanation. Similarly, the idea that an entire family's name
              was changed by one clerk--especially one at Ellis Island--is seldom
              supported by historical research and analysis.

              American name change stories tend to be apocryphal, that is, they
              developed later to explain events shrouded in the mist of time. Given the
              facts of US immigration procedures at Ellis Island, the above story
              becomes suspect. In the story, the immigrant arrives at Ellis Island and a
              record is then created by someone who cannot communicate with the
              immigrant, and so assigns the immigrant a descriptive name. In fact,
              passenger lists were not created at Ellis Island. They were created
              abroad, beginning close to the immigrant's home, when the immigrant
              purchased his ticket. It is unlikely that anyone at the local steamship
              office was unable to communicate with this man. His name was most likely
              recorded with a high degree of accuracy at that time.

              It is true that immigrant names were mangled in the process. The first
              ticket clerk may have misspelled the name (assuming there was a "correct
              spelling"--a big assumption). If the immigrant made several connections in
              his journey, several records might be created at each juncture. Every
              transcription of his information afforded an opportunity to misspell or
              alter his name. Thus the more direct the immigrant's route to his
              destination, the less likely his name changed in any way.

              The report that the clerk "wrote down" the immigrants surname is suspect.
              During immigration inspection at Ellis Island, the immigrant confronted an
              inspector who had a passenger list already created abroad. That inspector
              operated under rules and regulations ordering that he was not to change
              the or identifying information found for any immigrant UNLESS requested by
              the immigrant, and unless inspection demonstrated the original information
              was in error.

              Furthermore, it is nearly impossible that no one could communicate with
              the immigrant. One third of all immigrant inspectors at Ellis Island early
              this century were themselves foreign-born, and all immigrant inspectors
              spoke an of three languages. They were assigned to inspect immigrant
              groups based on the languages they spoke. If the inspector could not
              communicate, Ellis Island employed an army of interpreters full time, and
              would call in temporary interpreters under contract to translate for
              immigrants speaking the most obscure tongues.

              Despite these facts, the Ellis-Island-name-change-story (or Castle Garden,
              or earlier versions of the same story) is as American as apple pie (and
              probably as common in Canada).

              Why?

              The explanation lies in ideas as simple as language and cultural
              differences, and as complex as the root of American culture. We all know
              names have been Anglicized in America (even the word "Anglicized" has been
              Americanized!). As any kindergartener learns, we live in a world where
              people ask our name then write it down without asking us how to spell or
              pronounce that name. Immigrants in America were typically asked their name
              and entered in official records by those who had "made it" in America and
              thus were already English-speaking (i.e., teachers, landlords, employers,
              judges etc.). The fact that those with the power to create official
              records were English-speaking explains much about small changes, over
              time, in the spelling of certain names.

              Many immigrants welcomed this change. Anyone from Eastern Europe, with a
              name LONG on consonants and short on vowels, learned that his name often
              got in the way of a job interview or became the subject of ridicule at his
              child's school. Any change that might smooth their way to the American
              dream was seen as a step in the right direction. Perhaps this was the case
              with Mr. Smiley. It was the case of another family from Russia, named
              Smiloff or Smilikoff, who emigrated to Canada at the turn of the century.
              By the time their son immigrated to the US in 1911, his name had become
              Smiley. But some name changes are not so easy to trace. Rather than a
              different spelling of the same-sounding name, an entirely new name was
              adopted. These are the most American stories of all.

              "Who is this new man, this American?" asked de Toqueville. He was Adam in
              the Garden, man beginning again, leaving all the history and heartbreak of
              the Old World behind. The idea that what made America unique was the
              opportunity for man to live in a state of nature, a society of farmers
              whose perception of Truth is unfettered by ancient social and political
              conventions lies at the base of Jeffersonian democratic theory. The New
              World became a place for mankind to begin again, a place where every man
              can be re-born and re-create himself. In such circumstances, the adoption
              of a new name is not surprising. Nor is it surprising in the cases of
              immigrants who came to America to abandon a wife and family or to escape
              conscription in a European army. There were all kinds of reasons,
              political and practical, to take a new name.

              A newspaper in California recently ran the story of a Vietnamese immigrant
              with a long, Vietnamese name so strange-looking to Anglo eyes. The young
              man came to this country and began to work and study. He began every day
              by stopping at a convenience store to buy a "bonus pak" of chewing gum.
              Chewing all those sticks of gum got him through long days of working
              several jobs and studying English at night. When he finally naturalized as
              a US citizen, he requested his name be changed to Don Bonus--the surname
              taken from the "Bonus Pak" and chosen to signify all his work and effort
              to become an American. He was a new man.

              If not for the newspaper story, we would not understand this name change.
              Mr. Bonus' naturalization papers would simply record the name change but
              not the reasons behind it. If he had not naturalized, his Bonus family
              descendents generations from now would be at quite a loss to explain the
              origin of their name.

              The documentation of name changes during US naturalization procedure have
              only been required since 1906. Prior to that time, only those immigrants
              who went to court and had their name officially changed and recorded leave
              us any record. Congress wrote the requirement in 1906 because of the
              well-known fact that immigrants DID change their names, and tended to do
              so within the first 5 years after arrival. Without any record, immigrants
              and their descendents are left to construct their own explanations of a
              name change. Often, when asked by grandchildren why they changed their
              name, old immigrants would say "it was changed at Ellis Island."

              People take this literally, as if the clerk at Ellis Island actually wrote
              down another name. But one should consider another interpretation of
              "Ellis Island." That immigrant is remembering his initial confrontation
              with American culture. Ellis Island was not only immigrant processing, it
              was finding one's way around the city, learning to speak English, getting
              one's first job or apartment, going to school, and adjusting one's name to
              a new spelling or pronunciation. All these experiences, for the first few
              years, were the "Ellis Island experience." When recalling their
              immigration decades before, many immigrants referred to the entire
              experience as "Ellis Island."

              So, on this day when we celebrate the breaking of our bond with the Old
              World, let us welcome Mr. Smiley and all the new immigrants who will, in
              the next few years as they become Americans, make changes to their name
              which will confuse and confound their descendents for generations to come.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • packard40@aol.com
              Well, Max s story is a true story. Regardless, I have trouble reading the penmanship on manifests today, so I can only guess what problems the Dept of Commerce
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 8, 2007
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                Well, Max's story is a true story.

                Regardless, I have trouble reading the penmanship on manifests today, so I
                can only guess
                what problems the Dept of Commerce people had reading them too. That
                combined with them
                not being fluent in obscure foreign languages, makes perfect sense to me,
                believe it or not.

                Respectfully, Marshall...


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • johnqadam
                We Canucks are allowed to travel to Cuba and do so quite often. I once asked our Cuban waiter how he came by his unusual given name, Usnavy. The waiter replied
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 8, 2007
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                  We Canucks are allowed to travel to Cuba and do so quite often.

                  I once asked our Cuban waiter how he came by his unusual given name,
                  Usnavy. The waiter replied that his father saw it on the side of a
                  plane and thought that it sounded nice -- US Navy!
                • Caye Caswick
                  I have friends who enjoy biking Cuba -- they fly to Canada and go from there. LOL, poor Usnavy! Caye ... __________________________________________________ Do
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 9, 2007
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                    I have friends who enjoy biking Cuba -- they fly to
                    Canada and go from there.

                    LOL, poor Usnavy!


                    Caye


                    --- johnqadam <johnqadam@...> wrote:

                    > We Canucks are allowed to travel to Cuba and do so
                    > quite often.
                    >
                    > I once asked our Cuban waiter how he came by his
                    > unusual given name,
                    > Usnavy. The waiter replied that his father saw it on
                    > the side of a
                    > plane and thought that it sounded nice -- US Navy!
                    >
                    >


                    __________________________________________________
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                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com
                  • James McGrath
                    It is also important to remember that there was for the most part no specific way to spell a name. The way it was pronounced was the way it was written, but in
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 9, 2007
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                      It is also important to remember that there was for
                      the most part no specific way to spell a name. The way
                      it was pronounced was the way it was written, but in
                      records written in Latin, Hungarian, and Slovak one
                      will find the 'same name' written in significantly
                      different ways. So, for example, Sabou and Szabo are
                      the same name, pronounced in precisely the same way,
                      in Romanian and Hungarian spellings. One could also
                      translate the name, and thus if in Latvian you are
                      Kalejs, or Kovač in Slovak (spelled Kovacs in
                      Hungarian and Ковач in
                      Russian), then why not simply be "Smith" in English,
                      since that is what the name means?

                      It is easy to forget that these surnames were borne by
                      ancestors most of whom were illegitimate, and these
                      names were passed on largely independently of issues
                      of literacy, alphabets and spelling.

                      So if there are cases where a surname was 'changed' at
                      Ellis Island from Kovacs to Kovatch, or Mohrmann to
                      Mohrman or even Mormon, this isn't really a change -
                      the person wrote what they heard, which is the same
                      thing Hungarians and Slovaks and others would do back
                      in their homelands too.

                      Best wishes,

                      James McGrath



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                    • Bill Tarkulich
                      Interesting observations James. Let me add another perspective. In my geographic cluster of East Slovakia, immigrants to America seemed to focus quite a bit
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 9, 2007
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                        Interesting observations James. Let me add another perspective.
                        In my geographic cluster of East Slovakia, immigrants to America seemed to
                        focus quite a bit on preserving the surname and modifying it only to make
                        it pronounce identically to the language in which they are
                        ruled/surrounded. Thus TARKULIC (Slovak), TARKULICS, TARKULICZ (Magyar)
                        became TARKULICH in American English. A more difficult maternal surname
                        took a more severe surgical strie: DZUBA became JUBA in America.
                        Pronounced identically. Often these name changes were initiated by the
                        immigrant himself within a few years of settling in America.

                        Most immigrants who were victims of the "name change" phenomena were
                        usually illiterate (which is what I believe you intended to write but used
                        the word "illegitimate" instead.)

                        I never found the translation of a surname in my own personal research,
                        only the phonetic equivalence.

                        Again, the INS officials were under strict orders not to re-do the
                        manifests, only correct blatant error. Since the volumes through Ellis
                        Island were so huge, it wasn't too often that corrections were even made.

                        Bill

                        On Tue, January 9, 2007 12:30 pm, James McGrath wrote:
                        > It is also important to remember that there was for
                        > the most part no specific way to spell a name. The way
                        > it was pronounced was the way it was written, but in
                        > records written in Latin, Hungarian, and Slovak one
                        > will find the 'same name' written in significantly
                        > different ways. So, for example, Sabou and Szabo are
                        > the same name, pronounced in precisely the same way,
                        > in Romanian and Hungarian spellings. One could also
                        > translate the name, and thus if in Latvian you are
                        > Kalejs, or Kovač in Slovak (spelled Kovacs in
                        > Hungarian and Ковач in
                        > Russian), then why not simply be "Smith" in English,
                        > since that is what the name means?
                        >
                        > It is easy to forget that these surnames were borne by
                        > ancestors most of whom were illegitimate, and these
                        > names were passed on largely independently of issues
                        > of literacy, alphabets and spelling.
                        >
                        > So if there are cases where a surname was 'changed' at
                        > Ellis Island from Kovacs to Kovatch, or Mohrmann to
                        > Mohrman or even Mormon, this isn't really a change -
                        > the person wrote what they heard, which is the same
                        > thing Hungarians and Slovaks and others would do back
                        > in their homelands too.
                        >
                        > Best wishes,
                        >
                        > James McGrath
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        --
                        Bill Tarkulich
                        http://www.iabsi.com
                      • Jan Ammann
                        Hello..........I have read with much interest on this particular subject about Ellis Island name change and also other ports of entry name changes. So I dug
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 9, 2007
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                          Hello..........I have read with much interest on this particular subject about Ellis Island name change and also other ports of entry name changes. So I dug out my g-g-grandparents manifest which has their names and dates of arrival. I received this manifest from NARA when I first started my research on my family. As you can see, the names were listed in Europe (Bremen) before they ever sat sail to this country.

                          The manifest is headed: District of New York - Port of New York

                          "I, Albert DeGinnon, Master of the North German S.S. America do solemnly, sincerely, and truly swear that the following List or Manifest, subscribed by me and now delivered by me to the Collector of the Customs of the Collection District of New York, is a full and perfect list of all the passengers taken on board of the said vessel at Bremen from which port said has now arrived and that on said list is truly designated the age, the sex, and the occupation of each of said passengers, the part of the vessel occupied by each during the passage, the country to which each belongs, and also the country of which it is intended by each to become an inhabitant; And that said List or Manifest truly sets forth the number of said passengers who have died on said voyage and the names and ages of those who died.

                          Sworn tho this 16th of November, 1874, (signature of A. DeGeisson) So help me God.

                          Before me List or Manifest of all the passengers taken on board the S.S. America whereof A.DeGinnon is Master, from Bremen burthen (blank space) tons.

                          My family is listed on line 150 - Line 2 to 8. Underneath are 4 other family members.

                          This copy that Nara sent me is huge............2 ft x 1-1/2 ft. It is well copied and very readable. I am sure many of you have seen an actual manifest but there may be some who have not so that is why I typed up the top of the manifest.

                          Jan




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                        • James McGrath
                          Oops! Talk about a slip! I did indeed intend to refer to illiteracy, and had no intention to cast aspersions on anyone s parentage!!! :) James
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 9, 2007
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                            Oops! Talk about a slip! I did indeed intend to refer
                            to illiteracy, and had no intention to cast aspersions
                            on anyone's parentage!!! :)

                            James



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                          • david1law@aol.com
                            Hi Bill: Here s a link to a Hungarian pronunciation guide that you may find interesting with regard to the DZUBA / JUBA pronunciation. It lists the different
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 9, 2007
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                              Hi Bill:

                              Here's a link to a Hungarian pronunciation guide that you may find
                              interesting with regard to the DZUBA / JUBA pronunciation. It lists the different
                              pronunciations for various Hungarian diagraphs such as DZ and DZS.

                              _http://www.phantomranch.net/folkdanc/alphabet/hungarian.htm_
                              (http://www.phantomranch.net/folkdanc/alphabet/hungarian.htm)


                              Best regards,

                              David



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                            • June McKee
                              Hi David, that was a really good link that you sent over. It makes it easy to pronounce the letters. I don t see a K do you know why that would be, or is it
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jan 9, 2007
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                                Hi David, that was a really good link that you sent over. It makes it easy to pronounce the letters. I don't see a "K" do you know why that would be, or is it just said as you would in English?
                                June
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: david1law@...
                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 11:50 AM
                                Subject: Re: [S-R] They Changed My Name At Ellis Island Myth


                                Hi Bill:

                                Here's a link to a Hungarian pronunciation guide that you may find
                                interesting with regard to the DZUBA / JUBA pronunciation. It lists the different
                                pronunciations for various Hungarian diagraphs such as DZ and DZS.

                                _http://www.phantomranch.net/folkdanc/alphabet/hungarian.htm_
                                (http://www.phantomranch.net/folkdanc/alphabet/hungarian.htm)


                                Best regards,

                                David


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