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Re: [S-R] finding village names

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  • david1law@aol.com
    Hello Vladmir: I have an inquiry regarding the house numbers that appear in the 19th century Roman Catholic Church records. In each of the villages where my
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 8, 2006
      Hello Vladmir:

      I have an inquiry regarding the house numbers that appear in the 19th
      century Roman Catholic Church records. In each of the villages where my ancestors
      lived, I've been working on a cluster genealogy for each of the families in
      my direct lineage (including the extended family clans). It appears that in
      some of the 19th century church records that the house numbers may have been
      attributed to the entire parish, rather than a particular village alone. For
      example, there is a listing of VALLIS KLUKNO NO. 108 (now known as DOLINA
      "Valley") between the villages of VITAZ and KLUKNO) in the SIROKE PARISH records
      in the SARIS Highlands, and there does not appear to have been 108 houses in
      the Valley (as I have scoured the parish records for both SIROKE and
      KLUKNAVA church records for several years and have tracked several family clans.
      Similarly, on the HRONEC side of my family who lived in the village of STARY
      SMOKOVEC (also known as ALT SCHMECKS in German and TATRA FURED in Hungarian),
      which was part of the Roman Catholic Church parish of MLYNICA (MUHLENBACH in
      German), the house number attributed to my grandmother's family is house No.
      64 and the few families that lived in STARY SMOKOVEC in the 19th century were
      all connected to my grandmother's family. As a quick illustration, there is
      only one entry in the 1869 Hungarian Census for STARY SMOKOVEC (ALT SCHMECKS)
      -- the family of my great, great, great grandfather -- which is included at
      the end of the 1869 Hungarian Census for MLYNICA (MUHLENBACH) parish and
      assigned a high house number. A review of the regular church records for
      MLYNICA parish corroborate this fact, as the only entries appearing in the parish
      records until 1898 are those relating to my grandmother's family. I would
      gratefully appreciate any thoughts that you may have regarding the assignment of
      house numbers (as appearing in the parish church records), as a number of us
      have discussed this issue on the DELPHI forum, but have not found any clear
      explanation regarding the house numbering system (other than anecdotal
      evidence).


      Best regards,


      David Michael Baloga


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Vladimir Bohinc
      Dear David, I don t think there was a one set of numbers for the whole parish. House numbering was a state affair, not of the church. If you have a feeling
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 8, 2006
        Dear David,
        I don't think there was a one set of numbers for the whole parish. House numbering was a state affair, not of the church.
        If you have a feeling that by checking "all church records" you could not find "all numbers" one reason may be that you checked only one religion.
        I have not been studying this issue in depth. I just remember what I wrote previously.
        One thing can be taken as very probable; small number is close to the church and highest numbers are newcomers or Gypsies.
        Also, if you take the church records from 1895 backwards, there are many villages, who did not have house numbers before 1850. Maybe I am wrong, but this is my feeling. One would have to see, when the numbering was mandatory.
        Fact is also, that a house number from then is not the same as today. I use house numbers mainly as a supportive fact when identifying relationships.
        In order to find the actual location of a house 100 years ago, one would have to look into Land Records and cadastral maps.

        Vladimir

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: david1law@...
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 6:29 PM
        Subject: Re: [S-R] finding village names


        Hello Vladmir:

        I have an inquiry regarding the house numbers that appear in the 19th
        century Roman Catholic Church records. In each of the villages where my ancestors
        lived, I've been working on a cluster genealogy for each of the families in
        my direct lineage (including the extended family clans). It appears that in
        some of the 19th century church records that the house numbers may have been
        attributed to the entire parish, rather than a particular village alone. For
        example, there is a listing of VALLIS KLUKNO NO. 108 (now known as DOLINA
        "Valley") between the villages of VITAZ and KLUKNO) in the SIROKE PARISH records
        in the SARIS Highlands, and there does not appear to have been 108 houses in
        the Valley (as I have scoured the parish records for both SIROKE and
        KLUKNAVA church records for several years and have tracked several family clans.
        Similarly, on the HRONEC side of my family who lived in the village of STARY
        SMOKOVEC (also known as ALT SCHMECKS in German and TATRA FURED in Hungarian),
        which was part of the Roman Catholic Church parish of MLYNICA (MUHLENBACH in
        German), the house number attributed to my grandmother's family is house No.
        64 and the few families that lived in STARY SMOKOVEC in the 19th century were
        all connected to my grandmother's family. As a quick illustration, there is
        only one entry in the 1869 Hungarian Census for STARY SMOKOVEC (ALT SCHMECKS)
        -- the family of my great, great, great grandfather -- which is included at
        the end of the 1869 Hungarian Census for MLYNICA (MUHLENBACH) parish and
        assigned a high house number. A review of the regular church records for
        MLYNICA parish corroborate this fact, as the only entries appearing in the parish
        records until 1898 are those relating to my grandmother's family. I would
        gratefully appreciate any thoughts that you may have regarding the assignment of
        house numbers (as appearing in the parish church records), as a number of us
        have discussed this issue on the DELPHI forum, but have not found any clear
        explanation regarding the house numbering system (other than anecdotal
        evidence).


        Best regards,


        David Michael Baloga

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.1794 (20061006) __________

        Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
        http://www.eset.sk


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Vladimir Bohinc
        In general I have to say, that the numbering system in Slovakia is very confusing even today. How often it drives me mad. :-) Vladimir ... From:
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 8, 2006
          In general I have to say, that the numbering system in Slovakia is very confusing even today. How often it drives me mad. :-)
          Vladimir

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: david1law@...
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 6:29 PM
          Subject: Re: [S-R] finding village names


          Hello Vladmir:

          I have an inquiry regarding the house numbers that appear in the 19th
          century Roman Catholic Church records. In each of the villages where my ancestors
          lived, I've been working on a cluster genealogy for each of the families in
          my direct lineage (including the extended family clans). It appears that in
          some of the 19th century church records that the house numbers may have been
          attributed to the entire parish, rather than a particular village alone. For
          example, there is a listing of VALLIS KLUKNO NO. 108 (now known as DOLINA
          "Valley") between the villages of VITAZ and KLUKNO) in the SIROKE PARISH records
          in the SARIS Highlands, and there does not appear to have been 108 houses in
          the Valley (as I have scoured the parish records for both SIROKE and
          KLUKNAVA church records for several years and have tracked several family clans.
          Similarly, on the HRONEC side of my family who lived in the village of STARY
          SMOKOVEC (also known as ALT SCHMECKS in German and TATRA FURED in Hungarian),
          which was part of the Roman Catholic Church parish of MLYNICA (MUHLENBACH in
          German), the house number attributed to my grandmother's family is house No.
          64 and the few families that lived in STARY SMOKOVEC in the 19th century were
          all connected to my grandmother's family. As a quick illustration, there is
          only one entry in the 1869 Hungarian Census for STARY SMOKOVEC (ALT SCHMECKS)
          -- the family of my great, great, great grandfather -- which is included at
          the end of the 1869 Hungarian Census for MLYNICA (MUHLENBACH) parish and
          assigned a high house number. A review of the regular church records for
          MLYNICA parish corroborate this fact, as the only entries appearing in the parish
          records until 1898 are those relating to my grandmother's family. I would
          gratefully appreciate any thoughts that you may have regarding the assignment of
          house numbers (as appearing in the parish church records), as a number of us
          have discussed this issue on the DELPHI forum, but have not found any clear
          explanation regarding the house numbering system (other than anecdotal
          evidence).


          Best regards,


          David Michael Baloga

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.1794 (20061006) __________

          Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
          http://www.eset.sk


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jump4toys@aol.com
          Question........ Actually 2 questions. There is a Mormon Temple here where I live with a research library. I assume that the LDS is the Mormon Church Library.
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 8, 2006
            Question........

            Actually 2 questions.
            There is a Mormon Temple here where I live with a research library. I assume
            that the LDS is the Mormon Church Library. Do you know if they have this
            information readily available without having to order anything?

            Also...question 2.....I had asked about my family towns in the Carpathian
            Mountains...the towns are Munkacs, Szolyva, Zugo, Beregszasz, because at one time
            I remember Bill saying that this area was not yet microfilmed. It was
            certainly Hungary back in 1869. NOW the area is the UKRAINE thanks to border
            changes. So my question is, does anyone know if this area has the records on file
            available to research or am I wasting time with this search.

            DAniel
            Wachtenheim


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Marilyn Hertenstein
            Daniel, Each library is different. Some have researchers like you and I that may have paid to have a certain film on permanent loan, therefore, they may
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 8, 2006
              Daniel,
              Each library is different. Some have researchers like you and I that may
              have paid to have a certain film on permanent loan, therefore, they "may"
              have something of interest to you, but chances are they do not. You will
              need to order each film separately according to your needs.

              You can search from your home computer to see if there are records available
              for rent just by going to
              http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp ,click on
              PLACE, and then type in the various cities. You are in luck, I entered the
              first village, Munkacs, and the following records are available:
              Baptisms, marriages, and deaths of military personnel in Munk�cs, Bereg,
              Hungary; later Muka�evo, Podkarpatsk� Rus, Czechoslovakia; now Mukacheve,
              Zakarpats'ka, Ukraine. For Indexes to the names of regimental captains and
              garrison place names see films no. 1442862-1442866.

              I think it has already been mentioned that we all have to do our own leg
              work here. So take some time, look up your villages and make your list of
              Films you need to order. They will take a few weeks to come in.

              Happy hunting,
              Marilyn

              _____

              From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of jump4toys@...
              Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 12:32 PM
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [S-R] finding village names



              Question........

              Actually 2 questions.
              There is a Mormon Temple here where I live with a research library. I assume

              that the LDS is the Mormon Church Library. Do you know if they have this
              information readily available without having to order anything?

              Also...question 2.....I had asked about my family towns in the Carpathian
              Mountains...the towns are Munkacs, Szolyva, Zugo, Beregszasz, because at one
              time
              I remember Bill saying that this area was not yet microfilmed. It was
              certainly Hungary back in 1869. NOW the area is the UKRAINE thanks to border

              changes. So my question is, does anyone know if this area has the records on
              file
              available to research or am I wasting time with this search.

              DAniel
              Wachtenheim

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • jump4toys@aol.com
              Marilyn, thanks for the help. Your link was PERFECT...the other ones that people tried to refer me to didn t seem to get me there. I did research the towns of
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 8, 2006
                Marilyn,
                thanks for the help. Your link was PERFECT...the other ones that people
                tried to refer me to didn't seem to get me there.
                I did research the towns of my ancestors, but they didn't come up on the LDS.
                I'm assuming that because it's the Ukraine now, it must be harder to access
                records? I hope that the LDS, as determined as they are, will get records
                from these small villages in the area.

                Daniel
                >
                > Daniel,
                > Each library is different. Some have researchers like you and I that may
                > have paid to have a certain film on permanent loan, therefore, they "may"
                > have something of interest to you, but chances are they do not. You will
                > need to order each film separately according to your needs.
                >
                > You can search from your home computer to see if there are records available
                > for rent just by going to
                > http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp ,click on
                > PLACE, and then type in the various cities. You are in luck, I entered the
                > first village, Munkacs, and the following records are available:
                > Baptisms, marriages, and deaths of military personnel in Munkács, Bereg,
                > Hungary; later Mukaèevo, Podkarpatská Rus, Czechoslovakia; now Mukacheve,
                > Zakarpats'ka, Ukraine. For Indexes to the names of regimental captains and
                > garrison place names see films no. 1442862-1442866.
                >
                > I think it has already been mentioned that we all have to do our own leg
                > work here. So take some time, look up your villages and make your list of
                > Films you need to order. They will take a few weeks to come in.
                >
                > Happy hunting,
                > Marilyn
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of jump4toys@...
                > Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 12:32 PM
                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [S-R] finding village names
                >
                >
                >
                > Question........
                >
                > Actually 2 questions.
                > There is a Mormon Temple here where I live with a research library. I assume
                >
                > that the LDS is the Mormon Church Library. Do you know if they have this
                > information readily available without having to order anything?
                >
                > Also...question 2.....I had asked about my family towns in the Carpathian
                > Mountains...the towns are Munkacs, Szolyva, Zugo, Beregszasz, because at one
                > time
                > I remember Bill saying that this area was not yet microfilmed. It was
                > certainly Hungary back in 1869. NOW the area is the UKRAINE thanks to border
                >
                > changes. So my question is, does anyone know if this area has the records on
                > file
                > available to research or am I wasting time with this search.
                >
                > DAniel
                > Wachtenheim
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Marilyn Hertenstein
                You re quite welcome. Something else you might want to consider, perhaps you have the spelling of the village wrong. LDS seems to search only with the
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 9, 2006
                  You're quite welcome. Something else you might want to consider, perhaps
                  you have the spelling of the village wrong. LDS seems to search only with
                  the spelling you give it, so if it is one letter wrong, you will come up
                  empty. Check your spellings. One place you can use is
                  http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/LocTown.asp This wonderful site will
                  look for villages using soundex, meaning it will come up with lots of
                  possibilities for the village name you enter. If you know about where your
                  village is on a map, you could also enter the name of a bigger city and then
                  in the possibilities it gives you, click on the dot in the last column
                  marked "10 mile radius", and it gives you all the villages nearby. Another
                  nice feature is that it often gives you the name of the village now and what
                  it used to be called. Once you find your village, go back to the LDS page
                  and enter in the new spelling and see if they have any records. There are
                  lots of records from Ukraine, just not everywhere has been filmed yet.

                  Happy hunting,
                  Marilyn

                  _____

                  From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of jump4toys@...
                  Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 11:46 PM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] finding village names



                  Marilyn,
                  thanks for the help. Your link was PERFECT...the other ones that people
                  tried to refer me to didn't seem to get me there.
                  I did research the towns of my ancestors, but they didn't come up on the
                  LDS.
                  I'm assuming that because it's the Ukraine now, it must be harder to access
                  records? I hope that the LDS, as determined as they are, will get records
                  from these small villages in the area.

                  Daniel
                  >
                  > Daniel,
                  > Each library is different. Some have researchers like you and I that may
                  > have paid to have a certain film on permanent loan, therefore, they "may"
                  > have something of interest to you, but chances are they do not. You will
                  > need to order each film separately according to your needs.
                  >
                  > You can search from your home computer to see if there are records
                  available
                  > for rent just by going to
                  > http://www.familyse
                  <http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp>
                  arch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp ,click on
                  > PLACE, and then type in the various cities. You are in luck, I entered the
                  > first village, Munkacs, and the following records are available:
                  > Baptisms, marriages, and deaths of military personnel in Munkács, Bereg,
                  > Hungary; later Mukaèevo, Podkarpatská Rus, Czechoslovakia; now Mukacheve,
                  > Zakarpats'ka, Ukraine. For Indexes to the names of regimental captains and
                  > garrison place names see films no. 1442862-1442866.
                  >
                  > I think it has already been mentioned that we all have to do our own leg
                  > work here. So take some time, look up your villages and make your list of
                  > Films you need to order. They will take a few weeks to come in.
                  >
                  > Happy hunting,
                  > Marilyn
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@
                  <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of jump4toys@aol. <mailto:jump4toys%40aol.com> com
                  > Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 12:32 PM
                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [S-R] finding village names
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Question........
                  >
                  > Actually 2 questions.
                  > There is a Mormon Temple here where I live with a research library. I
                  assume
                  >
                  > that the LDS is the Mormon Church Library. Do you know if they have this
                  > information readily available without having to order anything?
                  >
                  > Also...question 2.....I had asked about my family towns in the Carpathian
                  > Mountains...the towns are Munkacs, Szolyva, Zugo, Beregszasz, because at
                  one
                  > time
                  > I remember Bill saying that this area was not yet microfilmed. It was
                  > certainly Hungary back in 1869. NOW the area is the UKRAINE thanks to
                  border
                  >
                  > changes. So my question is, does anyone know if this area has the records
                  on
                  > file
                  > available to research or am I wasting time with this search.
                  >
                  > DAniel
                  > Wachtenheim
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim
                  Re: . LDS seems to search only with the spelling you give it, so if it is one letter wrong, you will come up empty. It s probably worthy of note that the LDS
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 9, 2006
                    Re: . LDS seems to search only with the spelling you give it, so if it is
                    one letter wrong, you will come up
                    empty.



                    It's probably worthy of note that the LDS place search has an implicit
                    wildcard in their search form. For example, if you search on the town "Mun",
                    it returns all locations that begin with Mun. Sometimes that helps,
                    sometimes it doesn't. It depends on where the error is.



                    Jim



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • johnqadam
                    ... library. I assume that the LDS is the Mormon Church Library. Do you know if they have this information readily available without having to order
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 9, 2006
                      >>> There is a Mormon Temple here where I live with a research
                      library. I assume that the LDS is the Mormon Church Library. Do you
                      know if they have this information readily available without having to
                      order anything?<<<

                      The availabity of records is on line. You can check that yourself.
                      Your local Family Histry Center has no secret database of info.
                      Neither do they have an intimate knowledge of Ukraine.

                      >>> Also...question 2.....I had asked about my family towns in the
                      Carpathian Mountains...the towns are Munkacs, Szolyva, Zugo,
                      Beregszasz, because at one time I remember Bill saying that this area
                      was not yet microfilmed . . . > certainly Hungary back in 1869. NOW
                      the area is the UKRAINE . . . So my question is, does anyone know if
                      this area has the records on file available to research or am I
                      wasting time with this search.<<<

                      Wasting time.
                    • matt_procter
                      I too was very confused when I visited my ancestral village (Stiavnik) last winter. A house numbered 1200 could be right beside one number 216. There was
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 10, 2006
                        I too was very confused when I visited my ancestral village (Stiavnik)
                        last winter. A house numbered 1200 could be right beside one number
                        216. There was absolutely no rhyme or reason. Drove around for an
                        hour, trying to find the right house.

                        One thing I heard later was that in smaller villages houses were
                        numbered as they were built, regardless of exact location on a street.
                        This would support the previous note regarding house numbers getting
                        higher as they get farther away from the church. Also, there were no
                        street names in most smaller villages. Your address was just a number,
                        followed by the village name.
                      • Slovak American
                        Matt, I d love to hear more about your first visit to your ancestral village. What was it like? What was it like seeing it for the first time? Was it what
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 10, 2006
                          Matt,

                          I'd love to hear more about your first visit to your ancestral village. What was it like? What was it like seeing it for the first time? Was it what you imagined? Did you find relatives there?

                          Patrick
                          http://slovakamerican.blogspot.com/

                          matt_procter <matt_procter@...> wrote:
                          I too was very confused when I visited my ancestral village (Stiavnik)
                          last winter. A house numbered 1200 could be right beside one number
                          216. There was absolutely no rhyme or reason. Drove around for an
                          hour, trying to find the right house.

                          One thing I heard later was that in smaller villages houses were
                          numbered as they were built, regardless of exact location on a street.
                          This would support the previous note regarding house numbers getting
                          higher as they get farther away from the church. Also, there were no
                          street names in most smaller villages. Your address was just a number,
                          followed by the village name.






                          ---------------------------------
                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Bill Tarkulich
                          For newbies, an important note. As Vladimir indicates, sometimes the house number is relative to the village, not to a street at all. Sometimes in the past,
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 10, 2006
                            For newbies, an important note. As Vladimir indicates, sometimes the house
                            number is relative to the village, not to a street at all. Sometimes in the
                            past, a house would collapse (not uncommon) and the occupants would rebuild
                            elsewhere and take their number with them. It's also important to note that
                            not long ago, exacting precision regarding identity and location were
                            unnecessary. Everyone knew who everyone was and where they lived and many
                            things about each other. Not a lot of need for paperwork.
                            Bt


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: matt_procter [mailto:matt_procter@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 7:09 AM
                            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [S-R] finding village names

                            I too was very confused when I visited my ancestral village (Stiavnik)
                            last winter. A house numbered 1200 could be right beside one number
                            216. There was absolutely no rhyme or reason. Drove around for an
                            hour, trying to find the right house.

                            One thing I heard later was that in smaller villages houses were
                            numbered as they were built, regardless of exact location on a street.
                            This would support the previous note regarding house numbers getting
                            higher as they get farther away from the church. Also, there were no
                            street names in most smaller villages. Your address was just a number,
                            followed by the village name.





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