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Re: Illustrious baptisms

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  • sabinov@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
    In my own research of my gr/grandparents, Leopold and Matilda Jankovich Silhavy, who were employed by Count Bela Hadik as head forester on the many Hadik
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 15, 1999
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      In my own research of my gr/grandparents, Leopold and Matilda Jankovich
      Silhavy, who were employed by Count Bela Hadik as head forester on the
      many Hadik estates, and as lady in waiting to his daughter ..... the
      Hadik's baptisms etc were noted in the church registers of the local
      Catholic church, but often noted in the last column to the effect that
      the event took place in the "private chapel", which I take means on the
      estate itself. Regardless of where the event took place, it would still
      have been noted in the local Church register as that was the official
      record.

      My gr/grandparents were married in the chapel on the Hadik estate in
      Tarvana (Tovarne); this was family story, but confirmed when I found the
      church record, which stated "private chapel". The Silhavy children also
      all had various Count and Countesses as their godparents, which
      according to a person familiar with Hungarian nobility is unusual, but
      might have been because head foresters were not the usual employess, but
      more in charge of an entire estates game and hunting etc, more like a
      ranger. Also, Leopold's father also was head forester on the Hadik's
      estate, so the relationship may have gone on for several generations, a
      fact I am working to confirm now.

      At any rate, Hungarian nobility is very well documented, and films of
      their genealogies and other records are available on microfilm via your
      FHC.

      The Hungarian words for royalty include

      baro - baron
      grof - count
      grofne - countess
      herceg - duke/prince

      Remember that church records were often the only official registers in a
      smaller town especially, and so notable baptisms, marriages etc would
      have been noted in more detail in the church register for that reason,
      even if the actual event took place in a private chapel on an estate.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Maura Petzolt Mobile Alabama USA
      sabinov@...
      Helpful Hints for Successful Searching
      http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    • Andrea Vangor
      Thanks much -- I am going to have to pursue this. It adds an element of local color, picking up on the goings-on of the local baron. That is a good point
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 15, 1999
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        Thanks much -- I am going to have to pursue this. It adds an element of
        local color, picking up on the goings-on of the local baron. That is a good
        point about private chapels. I will have to check on that phrase in Latin.
        Certainly a Catholic estate would have had a private chapel, complete with
        chaplain in the old days. I suppose that a Lutheran estate would at least
        have the chapel. Can't see the Hungarian nobs hob-nobbing with the Slovak
        peasantry on a Sunday morning, somehow -- at least not in a tiny village
        church where they could not have their own fancy pews.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Maura Petzolt <sabinov@...>
        To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
        Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 1:16 PM
        Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Illustrious baptisms


        > From: sabinov@... (Maura Petzolt)
        >
        > In my own research of my gr/grandparents, Leopold and Matilda Jankovich
        > Silhavy, who were employed by Count Bela Hadik as head forester on the
        > many Hadik estates, and as lady in waiting to his daughter ..... the
        > Hadik's baptisms etc were noted in the church registers of the local
        > Catholic church, but often noted in the last column to the effect that
        > the event took place in the "private chapel", which I take means on the
        > estate itself. Regardless of where the event took place, it would still
        > have been noted in the local Church register as that was the official
        > record.
        >
        > My gr/grandparents were married in the chapel on the Hadik estate in
        > Tarvana (Tovarne); this was family story, but confirmed when I found the
        > church record, which stated "private chapel". The Silhavy children also
        > all had various Count and Countesses as their godparents, which
        > according to a person familiar with Hungarian nobility is unusual, but
        > might have been because head foresters were not the usual employess, but
        > more in charge of an entire estates game and hunting etc, more like a
        > ranger. Also, Leopold's father also was head forester on the Hadik's
        > estate, so the relationship may have gone on for several generations, a
        > fact I am working to confirm now.
        >
        > At any rate, Hungarian nobility is very well documented, and films of
        > their genealogies and other records are available on microfilm via your
        > FHC.
        >
        > The Hungarian words for royalty include
        >
        > baro - baron
        > grof - count
        > grofne - countess
        > herceg - duke/prince
        >
        > Remember that church records were often the only official registers in a
        > smaller town especially, and so notable baptisms, marriages etc would
        > have been noted in more detail in the church register for that reason,
        > even if the actual event took place in a private chapel on an estate.
        >
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > Maura Petzolt Mobile Alabama USA
        > sabinov@...
        > Helpful Hints for Successful Searching
        > http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        >
        >
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      • sabinov@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
        Andrea, I think you may be mistaken about the upper class not going to church services with the peasants . I m certain people went to services of whatever
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 15, 1999
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          Andrea,

          I think you may be mistaken about the "upper class" not going to church
          services with the "peasants". I'm certain people went to services of
          whatever faith where the church/synagogue was, and I doubt any families
          had clerics of any faith who only served them.

          Whether you were of a noble birth or a peasant, the church would still
          hold the records of your families events... that is if you attended the
          church. The records I have seen are much more like vital registers, and
          have often noted the fairly large amount of illegitimate births/baptisms
          recorded.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          Maura Petzolt Mobile Alabama USA
          sabinov@...
          Helpful Hints for Successful Searching
          http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        • Andrea Vangor
          I don t know how things were in Slovakia, but in France, for example, it was quite usual for a chateau to have a private chapel and personal chaplain, a priest
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 15, 1999
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            I don't know how things were in Slovakia, but in France, for example, it was
            quite usual for a chateau to have a private chapel and personal chaplain, a
            priest (often from a religious order in the neighborhood) who was attached
            to that estate. Households were quite large and would gather for morning
            and evening prayers and daily Mass. This was also the case in England
            before the Reformation. In Protestant households, the private chapel was
            still used for family prayers, including servants and dependents, although
            it would not generally boast its own chaplain. This is one of those details
            of daily life that I would like to understand. In the Anglican Church,
            wealthy people bought their own family pews, often at great expense, which
            were reserved for their exclusive use. The lower classes sat further back
            in the free seats.

            It's an interesting subject. I have come across two or three "illustrious"
            baptisms in these Lutheran records, and will go back to look more closely
            and see if I can find a reference to a private chapel or other location.

            The real question is, what were the usual relations between the Hungarian
            aristocrats and the Slovak peasants? How rigid was the social code?

            I have also come across a very small number of illegitimate child baptisms,
            one without godparents.


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Maura Petzolt <sabinov@...>
            To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
            Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 4:36 PM
            Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Illustrious baptisms


            > From: sabinov@... (Maura Petzolt)
            >
            > Andrea,
            >
            > I think you may be mistaken about the "upper class" not going to church
            > services with the "peasants". I'm certain people went to services of
            > whatever faith where the church/synagogue was, and I doubt any families
            > had clerics of any faith who only served them.
            >
            > Whether you were of a noble birth or a peasant, the church would still
            > hold the records of your families events... that is if you attended the
            > church. The records I have seen are much more like vital registers, and
            > have often noted the fairly large amount of illegitimate births/baptisms
            > recorded.
            >
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > Maura Petzolt Mobile Alabama USA
            > sabinov@...
            > Helpful Hints for Successful Searching
            > http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            >
            >
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