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Re: [S-R] Slovak Culture - Village Hierarchy

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  • amiak27
    janet, For a partial answer a bunch of your questions I suggest you see if you can locate a copy of A Cultural History of Hungary, from the Beginnings to the
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 2, 2006
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      janet,

      For a partial answer a bunch of your questions I suggest you see if
      you can locate a copy of "A Cultural History of Hungary, from the
      Beginnings to the Eighteenth Century" and its companion volume, "A
      Cultural History of Hungary, In the Nineteenth and Twentieth
      Centuries", both edited by Laszlo Kosa. ISBN 963 13 4836 9, 1999
      and ISBN 96313 4945 4, 2000, respectively.

      They are excellent books and address a good part of what you are
      asking, and unlike earlier Hungarian writings they do recognize the
      different peoples who made up the history of Hungarian culture.
      Both books are in English. I cannot recommend a source other than a
      very pleasurable trip to Budapest, where I picked up my copies.

      Unfortunately the information is not as complete as we demand with
      our modern standards, but fortunately the authors and editor do
      identify where written information is missing. The English is
      excellent and it makes a fascinating read. Sadly the information is
      not easy to reduce to easy "sound bites" for passing along on the
      forum.

      Ron

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I, too, welcome discussions of this sort. One cannot argue with
      Vladimir's
      > assertion that knowing generalizations about the culture does not
      tell you
      > about your own individual ancestors, but that is not entirely
      Carl's point.
      > It is also instructive to be able to place them into the larger
      social
      > context. Whether one's ancestors were typical or atypical of the
      culture
      > around them is itself interesting.
      >
      >
      >
      > I think Andrea's breakdown is a good one. Vladimir's contributions
      to
      > understanding village hierarchy are most welcome, and I would like
      to add
      > Felix Game's article at http://www.felix-
      game.ca/html_files/gfarmer2.html.
      > Although some of his terminology is German, especially regarding
      money, his
      > discussion of village hierarchy for the period around 1800 is quite
      > detailed.
      >
      >
      >
      > Neither of these articles, however, address how the nobility fit
      in. There
      > were different levels there, too, from the wealthy landowner to the
      > "barefoot" or "sandal" noble who had little to gain from his
      nobility except
      > a freedom from taxes. Everyone attended the same churches. Did the
      poor
      > nobles interact socially with the non-nobles, or did they consider
      > themselves separate? What was the lifestyle of the wealthier
      nobles? What of
      > those in between? Where did they live? How did they live? Did they
      rent or
      > own their land? And what of the larger towns? Not everyone lived
      in small
      > villages. What was the population make-up? How did they support
      themselves?
      >
      >
      >
      > Since most people were peasants living in small villages, there is
      perhaps
      > good reason why nearly all of the information focuses on them, but
      it would
      > be good if we had at least some idea of how others fit into the
      social and
      > economic scene.
      >
      >
      >
      > Janet
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Janet Kozlay
      Thank you, Ron, for pointing out this resource. I see a copy of both is available in England through abebooks.com, though very expensive (over $130). Volume 1
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 3, 2006
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        Thank you, Ron, for pointing out this resource. I see a copy of both is
        available in England through abebooks.com, though very expensive (over
        $130). Volume 1 seems to be more available. I will try to pick them up when
        we are in Budapest in March.



        At some time in the future I will be publishing a book (probably on the
        Corvinus Library website) based on the translations of the diary and other
        writings of my husband's great-grandfather, who lived in Hungary 1825-1850,
        when he immigrated to the U.S. He was a wealthy, educated young man, who,
        though considering himself Magyar, was of Slovak ancestry from Turocz.
        Although his voluminous writings (over 1000 pages) give special insight into
        the life of a single individual, there is much there that touches on general
        aspects of the culture and society. We learn, for instance, about the daily
        work life of peasants who worked in the vineyards and of their relationship
        with their overseers. We also get glimpses of the social life of the
        nobility, such as a detailed description of a ball given by Baroness Revay
        at the City Hall in Martin, as well as more "countrified" balls given in
        villages. His observations include even detailed descriptions of the dresses
        worn by each of the young girls. Although not comprehensive, as the Kosa
        books appear to be, I hope that it will add to a growing body of literature
        for English readers.



        Janet





        _____

        From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of amiak27
        Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:44 AM
        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Culture - Village Hierarchy



        janet,

        For a partial answer a bunch of your questions I suggest you see if
        you can locate a copy of "A Cultural History of Hungary, from the
        Beginnings to the Eighteenth Century" and its companion volume, "A
        Cultural History of Hungary, In the Nineteenth and Twentieth
        Centuries", both edited by Laszlo Kosa. ISBN 963 13 4836 9, 1999
        and ISBN 96313 4945 4, 2000, respectively.

        They are excellent books and address a good part of what you are
        asking, and unlike earlier Hungarian writings they do recognize the
        different peoples who made up the history of Hungarian culture.
        Both books are in English. I cannot recommend a source other than a
        very pleasurable trip to Budapest, where I picked up my copies.

        Unfortunately the information is not as complete as we demand with
        our modern standards, but fortunately the authors and editor do
        identify where written information is missing. The English is
        excellent and it makes a fascinating read. Sadly the information is
        not easy to reduce to easy "sound bites" for passing along on the
        forum.

        Ron

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I, too, welcome discussions of this sort. One cannot argue with
        Vladimir's
        > assertion that knowing generalizations about the culture does not
        tell you
        > about your own individual ancestors, but that is not entirely
        Carl's point.
        > It is also instructive to be able to place them into the larger
        social
        > context. Whether one's ancestors were typical or atypical of the
        culture
        > around them is itself interesting.
        >
        >
        >
        > I think Andrea's breakdown is a good one. Vladimir's contributions
        to
        > understanding village hierarchy are most welcome, and I would like
        to add
        > Felix Game's article at http://www.felix-
        game.ca/html_files/gfarmer2.html.
        > Although some of his terminology is German, especially regarding
        money, his
        > discussion of village hierarchy for the period around 1800 is quite
        > detailed.
        >
        >
        >
        > Neither of these articles, however, address how the nobility fit
        in. There
        > were different levels there, too, from the wealthy landowner to the
        > "barefoot" or "sandal" noble who had little to gain from his
        nobility except
        > a freedom from taxes. Everyone attended the same churches. Did the
        poor
        > nobles interact socially with the non-nobles, or did they consider
        > themselves separate? What was the lifestyle of the wealthier
        nobles? What of
        > those in between? Where did they live? How did they live? Did they
        rent or
        > own their land? And what of the larger towns? Not everyone lived
        in small
        > villages. What was the population make-up? How did they support
        themselves?
        >
        >
        >
        > Since most people were peasants living in small villages, there is
        perhaps
        > good reason why nearly all of the information focuses on them, but
        it would
        > be good if we had at least some idea of how others fit into the
        social and
        > economic scene.
        >
        >
        >
        > Janet
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >






        To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com




        _____

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Andrea Vangor
        Fantastic! Can t wait to read your book, Janet! ... From: Janet Kozlay To: Sent: Tuesday, January 03,
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 3, 2006
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          Fantastic! Can't wait to read your book, Janet!

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 3:58 AM
          Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Culture - Village Hierarchy


          > Thank you, Ron, for pointing out this resource. I see a copy of both is
          > available in England through abebooks.com, though very expensive (over
          > $130). Volume 1 seems to be more available. I will try to pick them up
          > when
          > we are in Budapest in March.
          >
          >
          >
          > At some time in the future I will be publishing a book (probably on the
          > Corvinus Library website) based on the translations of the diary and other
          > writings of my husband's great-grandfather, who lived in Hungary
          > 1825-1850,
          > when he immigrated to the U.S. He was a wealthy, educated young man, who,
          > though considering himself Magyar, was of Slovak ancestry from Turocz.
          > Although his voluminous writings (over 1000 pages) give special insight
          > into
          > the life of a single individual, there is much there that touches on
          > general
          > aspects of the culture and society. We learn, for instance, about the
          > daily
          > work life of peasants who worked in the vineyards and of their
          > relationship
          > with their overseers. We also get glimpses of the social life of the
          > nobility, such as a detailed description of a ball given by Baroness Revay
          > at the City Hall in Martin, as well as more "countrified" balls given in
          > villages. His observations include even detailed descriptions of the
          > dresses
          > worn by each of the young girls. Although not comprehensive, as the Kosa
          > books appear to be, I hope that it will add to a growing body of
          > literature
          > for English readers.
          >
          >
          >
          > Janet
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
          > On
          > Behalf Of amiak27
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:44 AM
          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Culture - Village Hierarchy
          >
          >
          >
          > janet,
          >
          > For a partial answer a bunch of your questions I suggest you see if
          > you can locate a copy of "A Cultural History of Hungary, from the
          > Beginnings to the Eighteenth Century" and its companion volume, "A
          > Cultural History of Hungary, In the Nineteenth and Twentieth
          > Centuries", both edited by Laszlo Kosa. ISBN 963 13 4836 9, 1999
          > and ISBN 96313 4945 4, 2000, respectively.
          >
          > They are excellent books and address a good part of what you are
          > asking, and unlike earlier Hungarian writings they do recognize the
          > different peoples who made up the history of Hungarian culture.
          > Both books are in English. I cannot recommend a source other than a
          > very pleasurable trip to Budapest, where I picked up my copies.
          >
          > Unfortunately the information is not as complete as we demand with
          > our modern standards, but fortunately the authors and editor do
          > identify where written information is missing. The English is
          > excellent and it makes a fascinating read. Sadly the information is
          > not easy to reduce to easy "sound bites" for passing along on the
          > forum.
          >
          > Ron
          >
          > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
          > wrote:
          >>
          >> I, too, welcome discussions of this sort. One cannot argue with
          > Vladimir's
          >> assertion that knowing generalizations about the culture does not
          > tell you
          >> about your own individual ancestors, but that is not entirely
          > Carl's point.
          >> It is also instructive to be able to place them into the larger
          > social
          >> context. Whether one's ancestors were typical or atypical of the
          > culture
          >> around them is itself interesting.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> I think Andrea's breakdown is a good one. Vladimir's contributions
          > to
          >> understanding village hierarchy are most welcome, and I would like
          > to add
          >> Felix Game's article at http://www.felix-
          > game.ca/html_files/gfarmer2.html.
          >> Although some of his terminology is German, especially regarding
          > money, his
          >> discussion of village hierarchy for the period around 1800 is quite
          >> detailed.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Neither of these articles, however, address how the nobility fit
          > in. There
          >> were different levels there, too, from the wealthy landowner to the
          >> "barefoot" or "sandal" noble who had little to gain from his
          > nobility except
          >> a freedom from taxes. Everyone attended the same churches. Did the
          > poor
          >> nobles interact socially with the non-nobles, or did they consider
          >> themselves separate? What was the lifestyle of the wealthier
          > nobles? What of
          >> those in between? Where did they live? How did they live? Did they
          > rent or
          >> own their land? And what of the larger towns? Not everyone lived
          > in small
          >> villages. What was the population make-up? How did they support
          > themselves?
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Since most people were peasants living in small villages, there is
          > perhaps
          >> good reason why nearly all of the information focuses on them, but
          > it would
          >> be good if we had at least some idea of how others fit into the
          > social and
          >> economic scene.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Janet
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >
          >
          > * Visit your group "SLOVAK-ROOTS
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS> " on the web.
          >
          > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          >
          > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • amiak27
          WOW ! That sounds fascinating, Janet, and I hope it is published. Be sure to let us know when it is available! Although this is a Slovak-Roots forum I am
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 3, 2006
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            WOW ! That sounds fascinating, Janet, and I hope it is published.
            Be sure to let us know when it is available! Although this is
            a "Slovak-Roots" forum I am much more into the history and figuring
            out how the ancestors lived and what values they may have held and
            practiced. The various cultures of Europe, Hungary and Alaska are
            just fascinating.

            Budapest is a magnificent city. Oh, with luck the books might be
            $15 or $20 per volume in Budapest.


            Ron

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Thank you, Ron, for pointing out this resource. I see a copy of
            both is
            > available in England through abebooks.com, though very expensive
            (over
            > $130). Volume 1 seems to be more available. I will try to pick
            them up when
            > we are in Budapest in March.
            >
            >
            >
            > At some time in the future I will be publishing a book (probably
            on the
            > Corvinus Library website) based on the translations of the diary
            and other
            > writings of my husband's great-grandfather, who lived in Hungary
            1825-1850,
            > when he immigrated to the U.S. He was a wealthy, educated young
            man, who,
            > though considering himself Magyar, was of Slovak ancestry from
            Turocz.
            > Although his voluminous writings (over 1000 pages) give special
            insight into
            > the life of a single individual, there is much there that touches
            on general
            > aspects of the culture and society. We learn, for instance, about
            the daily
            > work life of peasants who worked in the vineyards and of their
            relationship
            > with their overseers. We also get glimpses of the social life of
            the
            > nobility, such as a detailed description of a ball given by
            Baroness Revay
            > at the City Hall in Martin, as well as more "countrified" balls
            given in
            > villages. His observations include even detailed descriptions of
            the dresses
            > worn by each of the young girls. Although not comprehensive, as
            the Kosa
            > books appear to be, I hope that it will add to a growing body of
            literature
            > for English readers.
            >
            >
            >
            > Janet
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-
            ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of amiak27
            > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:44 AM
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Culture - Village Hierarchy
            >
            >
            >
            > janet,
            >
            > For a partial answer a bunch of your questions I suggest you see
            if
            > you can locate a copy of "A Cultural History of Hungary, from the
            > Beginnings to the Eighteenth Century" and its companion volume, "A
            > Cultural History of Hungary, In the Nineteenth and Twentieth
            > Centuries", both edited by Laszlo Kosa. ISBN 963 13 4836 9, 1999
            > and ISBN 96313 4945 4, 2000, respectively.
            >
            > They are excellent books and address a good part of what you are
            > asking, and unlike earlier Hungarian writings they do recognize
            the
            > different peoples who made up the history of Hungarian culture.
            > Both books are in English. I cannot recommend a source other than
            a
            > very pleasurable trip to Budapest, where I picked up my copies.
            >
            > Unfortunately the information is not as complete as we demand with
            > our modern standards, but fortunately the authors and editor do
            > identify where written information is missing. The English is
            > excellent and it makes a fascinating read. Sadly the information
            is
            > not easy to reduce to easy "sound bites" for passing along on the
            > forum.
            >
            > Ron
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I, too, welcome discussions of this sort. One cannot argue with
            > Vladimir's
            > > assertion that knowing generalizations about the culture does
            not
            > tell you
            > > about your own individual ancestors, but that is not entirely
            > Carl's point.
            > > It is also instructive to be able to place them into the larger
            > social
            > > context. Whether one's ancestors were typical or atypical of the
            > culture
            > > around them is itself interesting.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I think Andrea's breakdown is a good one. Vladimir's
            contributions
            > to
            > > understanding village hierarchy are most welcome, and I would
            like
            > to add
            > > Felix Game's article at http://www.felix-
            > game.ca/html_files/gfarmer2.html.
            > > Although some of his terminology is German, especially regarding
            > money, his
            > > discussion of village hierarchy for the period around 1800 is
            quite
            > > detailed.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Neither of these articles, however, address how the nobility fit
            > in. There
            > > were different levels there, too, from the wealthy landowner to
            the
            > > "barefoot" or "sandal" noble who had little to gain from his
            > nobility except
            > > a freedom from taxes. Everyone attended the same churches. Did
            the
            > poor
            > > nobles interact socially with the non-nobles, or did they
            consider
            > > themselves separate? What was the lifestyle of the wealthier
            > nobles? What of
            > > those in between? Where did they live? How did they live? Did
            they
            > rent or
            > > own their land? And what of the larger towns? Not everyone lived
            > in small
            > > villages. What was the population make-up? How did they support
            > themselves?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Since most people were peasants living in small villages, there
            is
            > perhaps
            > > good reason why nearly all of the information focuses on them,
            but
            > it would
            > > be good if we had at least some idea of how others fit into the
            > social and
            > > economic scene.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Janet
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
            email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            >
            > * Visit your group "SLOVAK-ROOTS
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS> " on the web.
            >
            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
            subject=Unsubscribe>
            >
            > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Janet Kozlay
            Ron, and others, I know it sounds like the diary is about Hungary, and while most of it takes place there, he took a long trip to Turocz to visit relatives.
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 4, 2006
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              Ron, and others, I know it sounds like the diary is about Hungary, and while
              most of it takes place there, he took a long trip to Turocz to visit
              relatives. These relatives for the most part were members of the Slovak
              nobility in the region. In addition, when his forebears moved south from
              Turocz in the 1700s they lived in Slovak villages in Nograd and northern
              Pest megyes. He himself spent his early childhood in a Slovak village and
              spoke Slovak fluently, as well as Hungarian, German, and Latin. He even
              wrote a poem in Slovak, using the old script, and numerous entries were
              written in German. It is a good illustration of how multilingual the area
              was (and often still is). Pest itself was a German city.



              Bear in mind also that most aspects of the culture were basically the same.
              Though there were minor regional differences, most aspects of daily life,
              religious rituals, and customs were the same throughout the Central European
              countries. I have noted many customs that purported to be "Slovak" or
              "Hungarian" were actually common to the area as a whole. Bill Tarkulich has
              pointed this out also. This is why the Grisak autobiography is so valuable
              as well, though he was Ruthenian.



              Finally, please don't expect this "book" to be out soon. It is a huge task
              to go through such a large body of writings, adding my annotations to
              explain or clarify some of the contents. I just hope that in the end it will
              be worth it.



              Janet







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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