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Re: [S-R] Re: Slovak Culture

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  • Vladimir Bohinc
    Dear Carl, I like questions, but I am not very fond of was this common? . To make something common would mean to generalize it. This would not bring you
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 2, 2006
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      Dear Carl,
      I like questions, but I am not very fond of " was this common?". To make something common would mean to generalize it. This would not bring you closer to understanding your family. All sorts of things have happened, like always.
      1. How common was it for Slovaks and Hungarians to marry? ( I presume you mean each other)
      One immediately has to ask when and where.
      If someone was living and feeling like a Magyar, he was not very welcome in a slovak family because of several things. The higher one was on the social ladder, the more such marriage was possible. There were times, where there was tension and there were times where there was less tension. There were times, when the hungarian ethnicity was endangered by the slavic ethnicities to be assimilated.
      There were times when the Magyars were trying to magyarize the Slavs. This is when you find the term Jobbagy and slavic names magyarized.
      How can you tell from the Church records, who was slovak and who not if all names are spelled in magyar?
      Colonus is the farmer, who has in use a house and land ( and has a couple of horses), which is called sessio in latin or usadlost in slovak and was the basic unit of farmership and supposed to be big enough to give a good life for a family. ( When it was located next to the road, it usually was some 35 steps wide) Neither colonus, not anyone lower than him really owned anything but themselves and what they could carry. The land belonged to the Landlord till the serfdom was abolished.
      If somebody had a uniform ( as a soldier), he was much more attractive, so he had a chance to step into a marriage with a girl who was from a family which was higher on the ladder. On the other hand, one can endlessly discuss the reasons for marriage. Then as today.
      You can read something I wrote about the social order in a village on a website of Bill Tarkulich.
      If your ancestors were herdsmen or shepherds, they most probably were not Slovaks, but Valachs or Ruthenians. These folks have their own specifics. The Valachs had even their own Law. So what was common for the Valachs or Ruthenians, was not neccessarily comon for other ethnic groups.
      In general it is true, that the more you research, the more questions you have, so it is a long process untill you get a feeling. You also have to get in touch with people who are carriers of the heritage of your folks here and start to learn their language. With speaking their language you will be able to get deeper into secrets of life.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: amiak27
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 6:45 PM
      Subject: [S-R] Re: Slovak Culture


      Carl,

      As you gain information on the meanings of the words, I suggest you
      associate each meaning with a time and region, as words and meanings
      do change with time and place. Look at our own history within the
      US and you will see that. Part of the time, the Hungarians had a
      very active Diet (legislature) and they were constantly tinkering
      with social experiments. I am skeptical that one word would hold
      one precise meaning over a century or two without hidden changes in
      status of that individual or class of people, and the same word in
      Upper Hungary could have a different variation of the meaning in
      Transylvania at the same time.

      Ron

      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Kotlarchik"
      <kkotlarc@r...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes, I have read the Grisak Family History and agree that it is a
      > very good book. I have also ordered several other books that have
      > been recommended but I was hoping that we could discuss things in
      > this forum that you don't necessarily find in the literature. It
      > seems like the more I read, the more questions I have.
      >
      > For example, how common was it for Slovaks and Magyars to marry?
      I
      > had the impression it was not that common but I am finding it
      > frequently in my family records. This would suggest to me, that
      > over time, the Slovak population would have been assimilated into
      > Hungarian population. But that did not happen. So, was there
      much
      > tension between the two groups?
      >
      > I asked my earlier question about the status differences between
      the
      > different terms for farmer because I find most of them used in my
      > family records. Oddly, one clan in my family were only herdsmen,
      > of every kind, for many generations. Then suddenly one marries
      > someone from a family listed as a colonus in one record and
      jobbagy
      > in another. From what I have read, herdsmen did not participate
      > much in the activities of the village. So, was it unusual for one
      > of them to marry someone who owned property? This individual had
      > been in the army but he is the only member of his family clan that
      > did not become a pasztor. But he also moved away from the town
      > where his wife was raised. So how and why did he change
      > occupations?
      >
      > Anyway, this is what I find interesting about researching the
      family
      > history. It is not just collecting dates and names. I enjoy
      trying
      > to understand the time period and the culture. I'm trying to find
      > others with a similar interest so we can share and learn from each
      > other. Most of the questions in this forum pertain to "how do I
      > find something" which is important and I ask these questions too.
      > But I would also like to discuss things that make a story about
      > people's lives. At some point, all of us should write up what we
      > have learned from our family research. This should not be just
      > dates and facts but a personal history of one's family and the
      > influences that shaped their lives.
      >
      >
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "johnqadam" <johnqadam@r...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-
      immigrant
      > > experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-1950,
      > born
      > > in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth
      > describing
      > > day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the past.
      > > It has been recently scanned and is available at
      > >
      > > http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
      > > Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will
      need
      > > Acrobat reader.
      > > Thanks to Larry Krupnak for bringing it to my attention.
      > >
      > > Here is Bill Trakulich's message 3944.1 from the Delphi site.
      > >
      > > There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-
      immigrant
      > > experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-1950,
      > born
      > > in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth
      > describing
      > > day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the past.
      > > It has been recently scanned and is available at
      > >
      > > http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
      > > Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will
      need
      > > Acrobat reader.
      > >
      > > >>From the Library of Congress on-line catalog:
      > > >
      > > > Title: The Grisak family
      > > > Authors: Grisak, Michael J. , 1910- (Main Author) *
      > > >LC Control Number: 79103327
      > > > Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
      > > > Personal Name: Grisak, Michael J.
      > > > Main Title: The Grisak family / compiled by Michael J. Grisak.
      > > >Published/Created: [Merrillville, Ind.] : Grisak, [1978-1979]
      > > > Description: 2 v. : ill. ; 28 cm.
      > > > Notes: Cover title.
      > > > Subjects: Grisak, Michael J.
      > > > Grisak family.
      > > > Czechoslovakia--Biography.
      > > > United States--Biography.
      > > >LC Classification: CT948.G74 A34
      > > > Dewey Class No.: 943.7/03/0922 B
      > > > Geog. Area Code: e-cs--- n-us---
      > >
      >






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    • Carl Kotlarchik
      Dear Vladimir, Well, I disagree with you. Questions like that help me understand various things and I think they are useful. I have been trying to determine
      Message 2 of 2 , Jan 2, 2006
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        Dear Vladimir,
        Well, I disagree with you. Questions like that help me understand
        various things and I think they are useful. I have been trying to
        determine if my Slovak family married into Magyar families. You
        question how I know I'm a Slovak. It is not from the church
        records. I knew three of my grandparents and two of my great-
        grandparents. There was no mistake as to what their ethnicity was.
        They told me. They also declared it in the immigration records, the
        U.S.census, and their applications for U.S. citizenship. Plus, that
        was the language they spoke. In addition, all the cousins and
        relatives who came to America at different times also declared their
        ethnicity the same way. So, I know I have Slovak, Serbian and
        Ruthenian ancestry. The herdsmen clan were Slovaks. They were not
        Valachs, Ruthenians or Magyars as you suggest. I once made the
        mistake of saying that we were Czechoslovakian and I got strongly
        reprimanded that we were Slovaks and not Czechs by my grandfather.

        I have been told (off-line by members of this forum) that sometimes
        Slovaks in Hungary took on Magyar names to be better accepted. That
        is why I asked the question if it was common for Slovaks to marry
        Magyars in the 1800s. I do not know if any of my ancestors were
        Magyars. It would be a surprise since it did not seem that my
        grandparents would accept this. However, I do see names that appear
        to be Magyar in the church records, but as you say, they may seem
        this way because they are mostly written in Hungarian. Which brings
        up another point, I have found some towns that have church records
        written in Slovak in the early 1800s. How common was this?

        To be perfectly clear, I am not concerned about the specific
        ethnicity of my ancestors. The more divergent it is, the better.
        That's what makes it interesting. My grandfather was disturbed that
        I married a "German". However, my wonderful wife is one fourth
        German, Norwegian, English and Scottish. I'm just trying to keep up
        with her!

        Vladimir, you may not have seen my first message in this chain where
        I did acknowledge your very helpful descriptions of town status at
        Bill Tarkulich's website. As a professional researcher, you are
        very generous in your sharing of knowledge. I really appreciate
        your messages.
        with regards,
        Carl

        -- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@n...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear Carl,
        > I like questions, but I am not very fond of " was this common?".
        To make something common would mean to generalize it. This would not
        bring you closer to understanding your family. All sorts of things
        have happened, like always.
        > 1. How common was it for Slovaks and Hungarians to marry? ( I
        presume you mean each other)
        > One immediately has to ask when and where.
        > If someone was living and feeling like a Magyar, he was not very
        welcome in a slovak family because of several things. The higher one
        was on the social ladder, the more such marriage was possible. There
        were times, where there was tension and there were times where there
        was less tension. There were times, when the hungarian ethnicity was
        endangered by the slavic ethnicities to be assimilated.
        > There were times when the Magyars were trying to magyarize the
        Slavs. This is when you find the term Jobbagy and slavic names
        magyarized.
        > How can you tell from the Church records, who was slovak and who
        not if all names are spelled in magyar?
        > Colonus is the farmer, who has in use a house and land ( and has
        a couple of horses), which is called sessio in latin or usadlost in
        slovak and was the basic unit of farmership and supposed to be big
        enough to give a good life for a family. ( When it was located next
        to the road, it usually was some 35 steps wide) Neither colonus, not
        anyone lower than him really owned anything but themselves and what
        they could carry. The land belonged to the Landlord till the serfdom
        was abolished.
        > If somebody had a uniform ( as a soldier), he was much more
        attractive, so he had a chance to step into a marriage with a girl
        who was from a family which was higher on the ladder. On the other
        hand, one can endlessly discuss the reasons for marriage. Then as
        today.
        > You can read something I wrote about the social order in a village
        on a website of Bill Tarkulich.
        > If your ancestors were herdsmen or shepherds, they most probably
        were not Slovaks, but Valachs or Ruthenians. These folks have their
        own specifics. The Valachs had even their own Law. So what was
        common for the Valachs or Ruthenians, was not neccessarily comon for
        other ethnic groups.
        > In general it is true, that the more you research, the more
        questions you have, so it is a long process untill you get a
        feeling. You also have to get in touch with people who are carriers
        of the heritage of your folks here and start to learn their
        language. With speaking their language you will be able to get
        deeper into secrets of life.
        > Vladimir
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: amiak27
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 6:45 PM
        > Subject: [S-R] Re: Slovak Culture
        >
        >
        > Carl,
        >
        > As you gain information on the meanings of the words, I suggest
        you
        > associate each meaning with a time and region, as words and
        meanings
        > do change with time and place. Look at our own history within
        the
        > US and you will see that. Part of the time, the Hungarians had
        a
        > very active Diet (legislature) and they were constantly
        tinkering
        > with social experiments. I am skeptical that one word would
        hold
        > one precise meaning over a century or two without hidden changes
        in
        > status of that individual or class of people, and the same word
        in
        > Upper Hungary could have a different variation of the meaning in
        > Transylvania at the same time.
        >
        > Ron
        >
        > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Kotlarchik"
        > <kkotlarc@r...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Yes, I have read the Grisak Family History and agree that it
        is a
        > > very good book. I have also ordered several other books that
        have
        > > been recommended but I was hoping that we could discuss things
        in
        > > this forum that you don't necessarily find in the literature.
        It
        > > seems like the more I read, the more questions I have.
        > >
        > > For example, how common was it for Slovaks and Magyars to
        marry?
        > I
        > > had the impression it was not that common but I am finding it
        > > frequently in my family records. This would suggest to me,
        that
        > > over time, the Slovak population would have been assimilated
        into
        > > Hungarian population. But that did not happen. So, was there
        > much
        > > tension between the two groups?
        > >
        > > I asked my earlier question about the status differences
        between
        > the
        > > different terms for farmer because I find most of them used in
        my
        > > family records. Oddly, one clan in my family were only
        herdsmen,
        > > of every kind, for many generations. Then suddenly one
        marries
        > > someone from a family listed as a colonus in one record and
        > jobbagy
        > > in another. From what I have read, herdsmen did not
        participate
        > > much in the activities of the village. So, was it unusual for
        one
        > > of them to marry someone who owned property? This individual
        had
        > > been in the army but he is the only member of his family clan
        that
        > > did not become a pasztor. But he also moved away from the
        town
        > > where his wife was raised. So how and why did he change
        > > occupations?
        > >
        > > Anyway, this is what I find interesting about researching the
        > family
        > > history. It is not just collecting dates and names. I enjoy
        > trying
        > > to understand the time period and the culture. I'm trying to
        find
        > > others with a similar interest so we can share and learn from
        each
        > > other. Most of the questions in this forum pertain to "how do
        I
        > > find something" which is important and I ask these questions
        too.
        > > But I would also like to discuss things that make a story
        about
        > > people's lives. At some point, all of us should write up what
        we
        > > have learned from our family research. This should not be
        just
        > > dates and facts but a personal history of one's family and the
        > > influences that shaped their lives.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "johnqadam"
        <johnqadam@r...>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-
        > immigrant
        > > > experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-
        1950,
        > > born
        > > > in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth
        > > describing
        > > > day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the
        past.
        > > > It has been recently scanned and is available at
        > > >
        > > > http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
        > > > Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will
        > need
        > > > Acrobat reader.
        > > > Thanks to Larry Krupnak for bringing it to my attention.
        > > >
        > > > Here is Bill Trakulich's message 3944.1 from the Delphi site.
        > > >
        > > > There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-
        > immigrant
        > > > experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-
        1950,
        > > born
        > > > in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth
        > > describing
        > > > day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the
        past.
        > > > It has been recently scanned and is available at
        > > >
        > > > http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
        > > > Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will
        > need
        > > > Acrobat reader.
        > > >
        > > > >>From the Library of Congress on-line catalog:
        > > > >
        > > > > Title: The Grisak family
        > > > > Authors: Grisak, Michael J. , 1910- (Main Author) *
        > > > >LC Control Number: 79103327
        > > > > Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic,
        etc.)
        > > > > Personal Name: Grisak, Michael J.
        > > > > Main Title: The Grisak family / compiled by Michael J.
        Grisak.
        > > > >Published/Created: [Merrillville, Ind.] : Grisak, [1978-
        1979]
        > > > > Description: 2 v. : ill. ; 28 cm.
        > > > > Notes: Cover title.
        > > > > Subjects: Grisak, Michael J.
        > > > > Grisak family.
        > > > > Czechoslovakia--Biography.
        > > > > United States--Biography.
        > > > >LC Classification: CT948.G74 A34
        > > > > Dewey Class No.: 943.7/03/0922 B
        > > > > Geog. Area Code: e-cs--- n-us---
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
        email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > SPONSORED LINKS Genealogy research Cellular phone family plan
        Family genealogy
        > Family vacations Genealogy family tree
        >
        >
        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
        -----------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        > a.. Visit your group "SLOVAK-ROOTS" on the web.
        >
        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
        of Service.
        >
        >
        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
        -----------
        >
        >
        >
        > __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.1347 (20051230) __________
        >
        > Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
        > http://www.eset.sk
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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