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Illustrious baptisms

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  • Andrea Vangor
    I wonder if anyone else -- I am sure that you have -- has perused microfilmed records of baptisms and found the very occasional record of the baptism of some
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 14 10:23 PM
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      I wonder if anyone else -- I am sure that you have -- has perused
      microfilmed records of baptisms and found the very occasional record of the
      baptism of some local big shot's child. Instead of a cursory sentence with
      the basic information, the Lutheran records (1755-1842) for Rankovce burst
      forth with a whole paragraph to commemorate the event. Words like
      "illustri" and "domini" show up. Do you all suppose that this is the local
      Hungarian Count and Countess dropping in? Did they usually have their
      aristocratic offspring baptized at the local peasant church, or would that
      just have occurred in special circumstances? I also notice what seems to be
      a list of important people who showed up. I'll have to copy one of these --
      they are really interesting, and shed light on the local political
      situation.
    • sabinov@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
      In my own research of my gr/grandparents, Leopold and Matilda Jankovich Silhavy, who were employed by Count Bela Hadik as head forester on the many Hadik
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 15 1:16 PM
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        In my own research of my gr/grandparents, Leopold and Matilda Jankovich
        Silhavy, who were employed by Count Bela Hadik as head forester on the
        many Hadik estates, and as lady in waiting to his daughter ..... the
        Hadik's baptisms etc were noted in the church registers of the local
        Catholic church, but often noted in the last column to the effect that
        the event took place in the "private chapel", which I take means on the
        estate itself. Regardless of where the event took place, it would still
        have been noted in the local Church register as that was the official
        record.

        My gr/grandparents were married in the chapel on the Hadik estate in
        Tarvana (Tovarne); this was family story, but confirmed when I found the
        church record, which stated "private chapel". The Silhavy children also
        all had various Count and Countesses as their godparents, which
        according to a person familiar with Hungarian nobility is unusual, but
        might have been because head foresters were not the usual employess, but
        more in charge of an entire estates game and hunting etc, more like a
        ranger. Also, Leopold's father also was head forester on the Hadik's
        estate, so the relationship may have gone on for several generations, a
        fact I am working to confirm now.

        At any rate, Hungarian nobility is very well documented, and films of
        their genealogies and other records are available on microfilm via your
        FHC.

        The Hungarian words for royalty include

        baro - baron
        grof - count
        grofne - countess
        herceg - duke/prince

        Remember that church records were often the only official registers in a
        smaller town especially, and so notable baptisms, marriages etc would
        have been noted in more detail in the church register for that reason,
        even if the actual event took place in a private chapel on an estate.

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Maura Petzolt Mobile Alabama USA
        sabinov@...
        Helpful Hints for Successful Searching
        http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      • Andrea Vangor
        Thanks much -- I am going to have to pursue this. It adds an element of local color, picking up on the goings-on of the local baron. That is a good point
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 15 3:05 PM
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          Thanks much -- I am going to have to pursue this. It adds an element of
          local color, picking up on the goings-on of the local baron. That is a good
          point about private chapels. I will have to check on that phrase in Latin.
          Certainly a Catholic estate would have had a private chapel, complete with
          chaplain in the old days. I suppose that a Lutheran estate would at least
          have the chapel. Can't see the Hungarian nobs hob-nobbing with the Slovak
          peasantry on a Sunday morning, somehow -- at least not in a tiny village
          church where they could not have their own fancy pews.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Maura Petzolt <sabinov@...>
          To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
          Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 1:16 PM
          Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Illustrious baptisms


          > From: sabinov@... (Maura Petzolt)
          >
          > In my own research of my gr/grandparents, Leopold and Matilda Jankovich
          > Silhavy, who were employed by Count Bela Hadik as head forester on the
          > many Hadik estates, and as lady in waiting to his daughter ..... the
          > Hadik's baptisms etc were noted in the church registers of the local
          > Catholic church, but often noted in the last column to the effect that
          > the event took place in the "private chapel", which I take means on the
          > estate itself. Regardless of where the event took place, it would still
          > have been noted in the local Church register as that was the official
          > record.
          >
          > My gr/grandparents were married in the chapel on the Hadik estate in
          > Tarvana (Tovarne); this was family story, but confirmed when I found the
          > church record, which stated "private chapel". The Silhavy children also
          > all had various Count and Countesses as their godparents, which
          > according to a person familiar with Hungarian nobility is unusual, but
          > might have been because head foresters were not the usual employess, but
          > more in charge of an entire estates game and hunting etc, more like a
          > ranger. Also, Leopold's father also was head forester on the Hadik's
          > estate, so the relationship may have gone on for several generations, a
          > fact I am working to confirm now.
          >
          > At any rate, Hungarian nobility is very well documented, and films of
          > their genealogies and other records are available on microfilm via your
          > FHC.
          >
          > The Hungarian words for royalty include
          >
          > baro - baron
          > grof - count
          > grofne - countess
          > herceg - duke/prince
          >
          > Remember that church records were often the only official registers in a
          > smaller town especially, and so notable baptisms, marriages etc would
          > have been noted in more detail in the church register for that reason,
          > even if the actual event took place in a private chapel on an estate.
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > Maura Petzolt Mobile Alabama USA
          > sabinov@...
          > Helpful Hints for Successful Searching
          > http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >
          >
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        • sabinov@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
          Andrea, I think you may be mistaken about the upper class not going to church services with the peasants . I m certain people went to services of whatever
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 15 4:36 PM
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            Andrea,

            I think you may be mistaken about the "upper class" not going to church
            services with the "peasants". I'm certain people went to services of
            whatever faith where the church/synagogue was, and I doubt any families
            had clerics of any faith who only served them.

            Whether you were of a noble birth or a peasant, the church would still
            hold the records of your families events... that is if you attended the
            church. The records I have seen are much more like vital registers, and
            have often noted the fairly large amount of illegitimate births/baptisms
            recorded.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            Maura Petzolt Mobile Alabama USA
            sabinov@...
            Helpful Hints for Successful Searching
            http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          • Andrea Vangor
            I don t know how things were in Slovakia, but in France, for example, it was quite usual for a chateau to have a private chapel and personal chaplain, a priest
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 15 7:20 PM
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              I don't know how things were in Slovakia, but in France, for example, it was
              quite usual for a chateau to have a private chapel and personal chaplain, a
              priest (often from a religious order in the neighborhood) who was attached
              to that estate. Households were quite large and would gather for morning
              and evening prayers and daily Mass. This was also the case in England
              before the Reformation. In Protestant households, the private chapel was
              still used for family prayers, including servants and dependents, although
              it would not generally boast its own chaplain. This is one of those details
              of daily life that I would like to understand. In the Anglican Church,
              wealthy people bought their own family pews, often at great expense, which
              were reserved for their exclusive use. The lower classes sat further back
              in the free seats.

              It's an interesting subject. I have come across two or three "illustrious"
              baptisms in these Lutheran records, and will go back to look more closely
              and see if I can find a reference to a private chapel or other location.

              The real question is, what were the usual relations between the Hungarian
              aristocrats and the Slovak peasants? How rigid was the social code?

              I have also come across a very small number of illegitimate child baptisms,
              one without godparents.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Maura Petzolt <sabinov@...>
              To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@onelist.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 4:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [SLOVAK-ROOTS] Illustrious baptisms


              > From: sabinov@... (Maura Petzolt)
              >
              > Andrea,
              >
              > I think you may be mistaken about the "upper class" not going to church
              > services with the "peasants". I'm certain people went to services of
              > whatever faith where the church/synagogue was, and I doubt any families
              > had clerics of any faith who only served them.
              >
              > Whether you were of a noble birth or a peasant, the church would still
              > hold the records of your families events... that is if you attended the
              > church. The records I have seen are much more like vital registers, and
              > have often noted the fairly large amount of illegitimate births/baptisms
              > recorded.
              >
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > Maura Petzolt Mobile Alabama USA
              > sabinov@...
              > Helpful Hints for Successful Searching
              > http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              >
              >
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