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Village hierarchy

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  • Carl Kotlarchik
    Could anyone explain some things about the hierachy in farm villages in the 1800s? Vladimir Bohinc has written a bit about it on Bill Tarkulich s web-site but
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 2, 2006
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      Could anyone explain some things about the hierachy in farm villages
      in the 1800s? Vladimir Bohinc has written a bit about it on Bill
      Tarkulich's web-site but I am wondering about things like marriage
      practices between people of different social status.

      I also admit to still being a bit confused over all the terms used
      to describe farmers, tradesmen and herdsmen. For example, what is
      the difference between jobbagy, colonus, zseller, foldmuves, rolik,
      gazda, and sedliak? I have found most of these terms in the records
      I have been searching. Some appear to own land and others seem to
      work for the land owners. I also see the term "szolga" which
      translates to man servant but what exactly did they do? Were szolga
      the same as podludnik or subinquilini?

      Would it be common for a family listed as a jobbagy or colonus to
      marry with someone from a family of pasztor? What about tradesmen
      and others like szolga and men in the army? Who was free to move
      around and who was tied to the land or nobility? Could a herdsman
      or a tradesman change occupations freely? Discussions about these
      kinds of questions would be very useful to help understand the times
      back then.

      I am reading as much as I can about the culture but so much seems
      contradictory. Many individuals in this forum have been so helpful
      explaining these things to those of us who are less knowledgeable.
      My thanks to all of you.

      Carl Kotlarchik
    • johnqadam
      There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-immigrant experience. It s an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-1950, born in Slovinky, (today s
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 2, 2006
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        There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-immigrant
        experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-1950, born
        in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth describing
        day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the past.
        It has been recently scanned and is available at

        http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
        Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will need
        Acrobat reader.
        Thanks to Larry Krupnak for bringing it to my attention.

        Here is Bill Trakulich's message 3944.1 from the Delphi site.

        There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-immigrant
        experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-1950, born
        in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth describing
        day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the past.
        It has been recently scanned and is available at

        http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
        Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will need
        Acrobat reader.

        >>From the Library of Congress on-line catalog:
        >
        > Title: The Grisak family
        > Authors: Grisak, Michael J. , 1910- (Main Author) *
        >LC Control Number: 79103327
        > Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
        > Personal Name: Grisak, Michael J.
        > Main Title: The Grisak family / compiled by Michael J. Grisak.
        >Published/Created: [Merrillville, Ind.] : Grisak, [1978-1979]
        > Description: 2 v. : ill. ; 28 cm.
        > Notes: Cover title.
        > Subjects: Grisak, Michael J.
        > Grisak family.
        > Czechoslovakia--Biography.
        > United States--Biography.
        >LC Classification: CT948.G74 A34
        > Dewey Class No.: 943.7/03/0922 B
        > Geog. Area Code: e-cs--- n-us---
      • Carl Kotlarchik
        Yes, I have read the Grisak Family History and agree that it is a very good book. I have also ordered several other books that have been recommended but I was
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 2, 2006
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          Yes, I have read the Grisak Family History and agree that it is a
          very good book. I have also ordered several other books that have
          been recommended but I was hoping that we could discuss things in
          this forum that you don't necessarily find in the literature. It
          seems like the more I read, the more questions I have.

          For example, how common was it for Slovaks and Magyars to marry? I
          had the impression it was not that common but I am finding it
          frequently in my family records. This would suggest to me, that
          over time, the Slovak population would have been assimilated into
          Hungarian population. But that did not happen. So, was there much
          tension between the two groups?

          I asked my earlier question about the status differences between the
          different terms for farmer because I find most of them used in my
          family records. Oddly, one clan in my family were only herdsmen,
          of every kind, for many generations. Then suddenly one marries
          someone from a family listed as a colonus in one record and jobbagy
          in another. From what I have read, herdsmen did not participate
          much in the activities of the village. So, was it unusual for one
          of them to marry someone who owned property? This individual had
          been in the army but he is the only member of his family clan that
          did not become a pasztor. But he also moved away from the town
          where his wife was raised. So how and why did he change
          occupations?

          Anyway, this is what I find interesting about researching the family
          history. It is not just collecting dates and names. I enjoy trying
          to understand the time period and the culture. I'm trying to find
          others with a similar interest so we can share and learn from each
          other. Most of the questions in this forum pertain to "how do I
          find something" which is important and I ask these questions too.
          But I would also like to discuss things that make a story about
          people's lives. At some point, all of us should write up what we
          have learned from our family research. This should not be just
          dates and facts but a personal history of one's family and the
          influences that shaped their lives.


          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "johnqadam" <johnqadam@r...>
          wrote:
          >
          > There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-immigrant
          > experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-1950,
          born
          > in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth
          describing
          > day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the past.
          > It has been recently scanned and is available at
          >
          > http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
          > Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will need
          > Acrobat reader.
          > Thanks to Larry Krupnak for bringing it to my attention.
          >
          > Here is Bill Trakulich's message 3944.1 from the Delphi site.
          >
          > There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-immigrant
          > experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-1950,
          born
          > in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth
          describing
          > day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the past.
          > It has been recently scanned and is available at
          >
          > http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
          > Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will need
          > Acrobat reader.
          >
          > >>From the Library of Congress on-line catalog:
          > >
          > > Title: The Grisak family
          > > Authors: Grisak, Michael J. , 1910- (Main Author) *
          > >LC Control Number: 79103327
          > > Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
          > > Personal Name: Grisak, Michael J.
          > > Main Title: The Grisak family / compiled by Michael J. Grisak.
          > >Published/Created: [Merrillville, Ind.] : Grisak, [1978-1979]
          > > Description: 2 v. : ill. ; 28 cm.
          > > Notes: Cover title.
          > > Subjects: Grisak, Michael J.
          > > Grisak family.
          > > Czechoslovakia--Biography.
          > > United States--Biography.
          > >LC Classification: CT948.G74 A34
          > > Dewey Class No.: 943.7/03/0922 B
          > > Geog. Area Code: e-cs--- n-us---
          >
        • amiak27
          Carl, As you gain information on the meanings of the words, I suggest you associate each meaning with a time and region, as words and meanings do change with
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 2, 2006
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            Carl,

            As you gain information on the meanings of the words, I suggest you
            associate each meaning with a time and region, as words and meanings
            do change with time and place. Look at our own history within the
            US and you will see that. Part of the time, the Hungarians had a
            very active Diet (legislature) and they were constantly tinkering
            with social experiments. I am skeptical that one word would hold
            one precise meaning over a century or two without hidden changes in
            status of that individual or class of people, and the same word in
            Upper Hungary could have a different variation of the meaning in
            Transylvania at the same time.

            Ron

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Kotlarchik"
            <kkotlarc@r...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes, I have read the Grisak Family History and agree that it is a
            > very good book. I have also ordered several other books that have
            > been recommended but I was hoping that we could discuss things in
            > this forum that you don't necessarily find in the literature. It
            > seems like the more I read, the more questions I have.
            >
            > For example, how common was it for Slovaks and Magyars to marry?
            I
            > had the impression it was not that common but I am finding it
            > frequently in my family records. This would suggest to me, that
            > over time, the Slovak population would have been assimilated into
            > Hungarian population. But that did not happen. So, was there
            much
            > tension between the two groups?
            >
            > I asked my earlier question about the status differences between
            the
            > different terms for farmer because I find most of them used in my
            > family records. Oddly, one clan in my family were only herdsmen,
            > of every kind, for many generations. Then suddenly one marries
            > someone from a family listed as a colonus in one record and
            jobbagy
            > in another. From what I have read, herdsmen did not participate
            > much in the activities of the village. So, was it unusual for one
            > of them to marry someone who owned property? This individual had
            > been in the army but he is the only member of his family clan that
            > did not become a pasztor. But he also moved away from the town
            > where his wife was raised. So how and why did he change
            > occupations?
            >
            > Anyway, this is what I find interesting about researching the
            family
            > history. It is not just collecting dates and names. I enjoy
            trying
            > to understand the time period and the culture. I'm trying to find
            > others with a similar interest so we can share and learn from each
            > other. Most of the questions in this forum pertain to "how do I
            > find something" which is important and I ask these questions too.
            > But I would also like to discuss things that make a story about
            > people's lives. At some point, all of us should write up what we
            > have learned from our family research. This should not be just
            > dates and facts but a personal history of one's family and the
            > influences that shaped their lives.
            >
            >
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "johnqadam" <johnqadam@r...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-
            immigrant
            > > experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-1950,
            > born
            > > in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth
            > describing
            > > day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the past.
            > > It has been recently scanned and is available at
            > >
            > > http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
            > > Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will
            need
            > > Acrobat reader.
            > > Thanks to Larry Krupnak for bringing it to my attention.
            > >
            > > Here is Bill Trakulich's message 3944.1 from the Delphi site.
            > >
            > > There is an absolutely excellent book about the Rusyn US-
            immigrant
            > > experience. It's an autobiography of Joseph Grisak, 1873-1950,
            > born
            > > in Slovinky, (today's Slovakia). It goes into great depth
            > describing
            > > day to day living. An absolutely precious glimpse into the past.
            > > It has been recently scanned and is available at
            > >
            > > http://www.saed.kent.edu/~lucak/topica/Grisak.pdf
            > > Be forewarned. It is 352 Kb and 98 pages in length. You will
            need
            > > Acrobat reader.
            > >
            > > >>From the Library of Congress on-line catalog:
            > > >
            > > > Title: The Grisak family
            > > > Authors: Grisak, Michael J. , 1910- (Main Author) *
            > > >LC Control Number: 79103327
            > > > Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
            > > > Personal Name: Grisak, Michael J.
            > > > Main Title: The Grisak family / compiled by Michael J. Grisak.
            > > >Published/Created: [Merrillville, Ind.] : Grisak, [1978-1979]
            > > > Description: 2 v. : ill. ; 28 cm.
            > > > Notes: Cover title.
            > > > Subjects: Grisak, Michael J.
            > > > Grisak family.
            > > > Czechoslovakia--Biography.
            > > > United States--Biography.
            > > >LC Classification: CT948.G74 A34
            > > > Dewey Class No.: 943.7/03/0922 B
            > > > Geog. Area Code: e-cs--- n-us---
            > >
            >
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