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Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames

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  • Andrea Vangor
    If you are lucky, as I was, you may find old church records that give people s everyday nicknames. Alki, Borka, Hanc~a, Miso, Ondo, Giri, etc. Lovely. ...
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 31, 2005
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      If you are lucky, as I was, you may find old church records that give
      people's everyday nicknames.

      Alki, Borka, Hanc~a, Miso, Ondo, Giri, etc. Lovely.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "nurse_ildiko" <nurse_ildiko@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:54 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames


      > Janet,
      > This is all very interesting! My maiden name is Kecskes. Thanks for
      > the info.
      > Ildiko Scott
      > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
      > wrote:
      >>
      >> I, too, have been fascinated by the practice of name changing both
      > because
      >> there are some prominent examples in history and because I
      > discovered some
      >> pretty startling ones in my own family name. In my case I have
      > traced the
      >> name from KOZLIK to KOZIK to KECSKES to KOZLAY. The family
      > originated in
      >> Upper Hungary, with a very Slavic name, and changed as they moved
      > further
      >> and further south and "became" Hungarian. These changes all took
      > place prior
      >> to 1850. (Kecskes is a translation of the Slavic word for "goat"
      > (Koz) to
      >> its Hungarian equivalent.) Slovak names were not the only ones to be
      >> "Hungarianized." Jewish, German, and Croatian names were also often
      > changed
      >> to more Hungarian ones, both in Hungary and in the U.S. It was
      > clearly an
      >> advantage in the 19th century to have a Hungarian name in Hungary,
      > and often
      >> was an advantage in the U.S., especially mid-century.
      >>
      >> However, I agree that some apparent name changes only reflect
      > spelling
      >> differences or the language in which the church records were
      > written, as
      >> pointed out both by "johnqadam" and by Bill Tarkulich. I, too,
      > question
      >> whether anyone was ever called Michael, or Johannes, despite their
      >> appearance in the records. As for Kristoffy/Kristofik, there are
      > old Latin
      >> records of Christoffi and Christoffi, which surely represent the
      > same name,
      >> if not the same family. Nor do I think you can make more than an
      > educated
      >> guess about what language a family spoke on the basis of how a name
      > was
      >> spelled in the records. There were so many ethnic groups living
      > together,
      >> they were almost forced to be multilingual unless they came from a
      > very
      >> small, ethnically "pure" village. We have evidence that among
      > related
      >> families in Upper Hungary, some spoke Slovak, some German, and some
      >> Hungarian, though all shared the same family name.
      >>
      >> Janet
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
      > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      > Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date: 10/28/2005
      >
      >
    • Bill Tarkulich
      You know, perhaps we should scout out a linguist somewhere who is interested in trans-language issues. It would be really interesting to see a integrated
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1, 2005
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        You know, perhaps we should scout out a linguist somewhere who is
        interested in trans-language issues. It would be really interesting to
        see a integrated research. It might have already been done, perhaps in
        Hungary. There has been a lot of historical and cultural academic work
        done by the Universities in Hungary. However, they may not have been too
        interested in Slovakia. And in turn, Slovakia was never very interested
        in learning about their past rulers and oppressors, understandably so.

        The problem with our approach is that it's opportunistic - that is,
        whatever we stumble upon. Certainly not a complete treatment. Would be
        worth fishing around.

        The nickname/alias thing would make for fascinating study too. Ah, so
        much to do, so little time...

        Bill

        > If you are lucky, as I was, you may find old church records that give
        > people's everyday nicknames.
        >
        > Alki, Borka, Hanc~a, Miso, Ondo, Giri, etc. Lovely.
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "nurse_ildiko" <nurse_ildiko@...>
        > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:54 PM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames
        >
        >
        >> Janet,
        >> This is all very interesting! My maiden name is Kecskes. Thanks for
        >> the info.
        >> Ildiko Scott
        >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
        >> wrote:
        >>>
        >>> I, too, have been fascinated by the practice of name changing both
        >> because
        >>> there are some prominent examples in history and because I
        >> discovered some
        >>> pretty startling ones in my own family name. In my case I have
        >> traced the
        >>> name from KOZLIK to KOZIK to KECSKES to KOZLAY. The family
        >> originated in
        >>> Upper Hungary, with a very Slavic name, and changed as they moved
        >> further
        >>> and further south and "became" Hungarian. These changes all took
        >> place prior
        >>> to 1850. (Kecskes is a translation of the Slavic word for "goat"
        >> (Koz) to
        >>> its Hungarian equivalent.) Slovak names were not the only ones to be
        >>> "Hungarianized." Jewish, German, and Croatian names were also often
        >> changed
        >>> to more Hungarian ones, both in Hungary and in the U.S. It was
        >> clearly an
        >>> advantage in the 19th century to have a Hungarian name in Hungary,
        >> and often
        >>> was an advantage in the U.S., especially mid-century.
        >>>
        >>> However, I agree that some apparent name changes only reflect
        >> spelling
        >>> differences or the language in which the church records were
        >> written, as
        >>> pointed out both by "johnqadam" and by Bill Tarkulich. I, too,
        >> question
        >>> whether anyone was ever called Michael, or Johannes, despite their
        >>> appearance in the records. As for Kristoffy/Kristofik, there are
        >> old Latin
        >>> records of Christoffi and Christoffi, which surely represent the
        >> same name,
        >>> if not the same family. Nor do I think you can make more than an
        >> educated
        >>> guess about what language a family spoke on the basis of how a name
        >> was
        >>> spelled in the records. There were so many ethnic groups living
        >> together,
        >>> they were almost forced to be multilingual unless they came from a
        >> very
        >>> small, ethnically "pure" village. We have evidence that among
        >> related
        >>> families in Upper Hungary, some spoke Slovak, some German, and some
        >>> Hungarian, though all shared the same family name.
        >>>
        >>> Janet
        >>>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> --
        >> No virus found in this incoming message.
        >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        >> Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date:
        >> 10/28/2005
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Janet Kozlay
        I ll second that. It would be very interesting to learn more about this. Over the years there have been many queries about the meaning of alias as well as
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 1, 2005
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          I'll second that. It would be very interesting to learn more about this.
          Over the years there have been many queries about the meaning of "alias" as
          well as concerns over how a name is "really" spelled and related issues.
          Another is the issue of "prenames," where a branch of a family may take on a
          second name. In my searches I have found families using Name A, Name A-B,
          Name B-A, and Name B in different entries. Some families also had Junior and
          Senior branches. For a large extended family with several branches, it makes
          it difficult to place someone correctly unless this added information is
          included.

          Janet


          -----Original Message-----
          From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Bill Tarkulich
          Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:41 AM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames

          You know, perhaps we should scout out a linguist somewhere who is
          interested in trans-language issues. It would be really interesting to
          see a integrated research. It might have already been done, perhaps in
          Hungary. There has been a lot of historical and cultural academic work
          done by the Universities in Hungary. However, they may not have been too
          interested in Slovakia. And in turn, Slovakia was never very interested
          in learning about their past rulers and oppressors, understandably so.

          The problem with our approach is that it's opportunistic - that is,
          whatever we stumble upon. Certainly not a complete treatment. Would be
          worth fishing around.

          The nickname/alias thing would make for fascinating study too. Ah, so
          much to do, so little time...

          Bill

          > If you are lucky, as I was, you may find old church records that give
          > people's everyday nicknames.
          >
          > Alki, Borka, Hanc~a, Miso, Ondo, Giri, etc. Lovely.
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "nurse_ildiko" <nurse_ildiko@...>
          > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:54 PM
          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames
          >
          >
          >> Janet,
          >> This is all very interesting! My maiden name is Kecskes. Thanks for
          >> the info.
          >> Ildiko Scott
          >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
          >> wrote:
          >>>
          >>> I, too, have been fascinated by the practice of name changing both
          >> because
          >>> there are some prominent examples in history and because I
          >> discovered some
          >>> pretty startling ones in my own family name. In my case I have
          >> traced the
          >>> name from KOZLIK to KOZIK to KECSKES to KOZLAY. The family
          >> originated in
          >>> Upper Hungary, with a very Slavic name, and changed as they moved
          >> further
          >>> and further south and "became" Hungarian. These changes all took
          >> place prior
          >>> to 1850. (Kecskes is a translation of the Slavic word for "goat"
          >> (Koz) to
          >>> its Hungarian equivalent.) Slovak names were not the only ones to be
          >>> "Hungarianized." Jewish, German, and Croatian names were also often
          >> changed
          >>> to more Hungarian ones, both in Hungary and in the U.S. It was
          >> clearly an
          >>> advantage in the 19th century to have a Hungarian name in Hungary,
          >> and often
          >>> was an advantage in the U.S., especially mid-century.
          >>>
          >>> However, I agree that some apparent name changes only reflect
          >> spelling
          >>> differences or the language in which the church records were
          >> written, as
          >>> pointed out both by "johnqadam" and by Bill Tarkulich. I, too,
          >> question
          >>> whether anyone was ever called Michael, or Johannes, despite their
          >>> appearance in the records. As for Kristoffy/Kristofik, there are
          >> old Latin
          >>> records of Christoffi and Christoffi, which surely represent the
          >> same name,
          >>> if not the same family. Nor do I think you can make more than an
          >> educated
          >>> guess about what language a family spoke on the basis of how a name
          >> was
          >>> spelled in the records. There were so many ethnic groups living
          >> together,
          >>> they were almost forced to be multilingual unless they came from a
          >> very
          >>> small, ethnically "pure" village. We have evidence that among
          >> related
          >>> families in Upper Hungary, some spoke Slovak, some German, and some
          >>> Hungarian, though all shared the same family name.
          >>>
          >>> Janet
          >>>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> --
          >> No virus found in this incoming message.
          >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          >> Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date:
          >> 10/28/2005
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >




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