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Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames

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  • Joyce & Bill
    ... If one s surname was hungarianized after immigration to ... This was my experience. I grew up thinking I had a good Hungarian name, Kristoffy. The
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 18, 2005
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      >From: Dennis Lee Bubla <dbubla@...>
      >Date: Mon Jul 18 18:20:41 CDT 2005
      >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames


      If one's surname was "hungarianized" after immigration to
      >the US happened, how would one know? By the same token, if one's name
      >was "hungarianized" before immigration, and the immigrant chose to
      >use the Slovak name, how would one know?

      This was my experience. I grew up thinking I had a "good" Hungarian name, Kristoffy. The family always said they were Hungarian. It was not until I started to research the family through church records that I discovered the name had been "magyarized" from Kristofik. In studying history I learned that the peak year for magyarization was 1878. I don't think it was by coincidence that the spelling changed in 1877 - 1878 and remained that way from that point in time on. The best thing to do is check church records. I doubt they would change a Hungarian name to it's Slovak equivalent, certainly not in the days before WW1. What they did after coming here could be most anything, but usually a more Americanized spelling to make it easier.

      Joyce
      who eventually recovered from her identity crisis. :>)
    • Janet Kozlay
      I, too, have been fascinated by the practice of name changing both because there are some prominent examples in history and because I discovered some pretty
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 18, 2005
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        I, too, have been fascinated by the practice of name changing both because
        there are some prominent examples in history and because I discovered some
        pretty startling ones in my own family name. In my case I have traced the
        name from KOZLIK to KOZIK to KECSKES to KOZLAY. The family originated in
        Upper Hungary, with a very Slavic name, and changed as they moved further
        and further south and "became" Hungarian. These changes all took place prior
        to 1850. (Kecskes is a translation of the Slavic word for "goat" (Koz) to
        its Hungarian equivalent.) Slovak names were not the only ones to be
        "Hungarianized." Jewish, German, and Croatian names were also often changed
        to more Hungarian ones, both in Hungary and in the U.S. It was clearly an
        advantage in the 19th century to have a Hungarian name in Hungary, and often
        was an advantage in the U.S., especially mid-century.

        However, I agree that some apparent name changes only reflect spelling
        differences or the language in which the church records were written, as
        pointed out both by "johnqadam" and by Bill Tarkulich. I, too, question
        whether anyone was ever called Michael, or Johannes, despite their
        appearance in the records. As for Kristoffy/Kristofik, there are old Latin
        records of Christoffi and Christoffi, which surely represent the same name,
        if not the same family. Nor do I think you can make more than an educated
        guess about what language a family spoke on the basis of how a name was
        spelled in the records. There were so many ethnic groups living together,
        they were almost forced to be multilingual unless they came from a very
        small, ethnically "pure" village. We have evidence that among related
        families in Upper Hungary, some spoke Slovak, some German, and some
        Hungarian, though all shared the same family name.

        Janet
      • nurse_ildiko
        Janet, This is all very interesting! My maiden name is Kecskes. Thanks for the info. Ildiko Scott ... because ... discovered some ... traced the ... originated
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 31, 2005
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          Janet,
          This is all very interesting! My maiden name is Kecskes. Thanks for
          the info.
          Ildiko Scott
          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I, too, have been fascinated by the practice of name changing both
          because
          > there are some prominent examples in history and because I
          discovered some
          > pretty startling ones in my own family name. In my case I have
          traced the
          > name from KOZLIK to KOZIK to KECSKES to KOZLAY. The family
          originated in
          > Upper Hungary, with a very Slavic name, and changed as they moved
          further
          > and further south and "became" Hungarian. These changes all took
          place prior
          > to 1850. (Kecskes is a translation of the Slavic word for "goat"
          (Koz) to
          > its Hungarian equivalent.) Slovak names were not the only ones to be
          > "Hungarianized." Jewish, German, and Croatian names were also often
          changed
          > to more Hungarian ones, both in Hungary and in the U.S. It was
          clearly an
          > advantage in the 19th century to have a Hungarian name in Hungary,
          and often
          > was an advantage in the U.S., especially mid-century.
          >
          > However, I agree that some apparent name changes only reflect
          spelling
          > differences or the language in which the church records were
          written, as
          > pointed out both by "johnqadam" and by Bill Tarkulich. I, too,
          question
          > whether anyone was ever called Michael, or Johannes, despite their
          > appearance in the records. As for Kristoffy/Kristofik, there are
          old Latin
          > records of Christoffi and Christoffi, which surely represent the
          same name,
          > if not the same family. Nor do I think you can make more than an
          educated
          > guess about what language a family spoke on the basis of how a name
          was
          > spelled in the records. There were so many ethnic groups living
          together,
          > they were almost forced to be multilingual unless they came from a
          very
          > small, ethnically "pure" village. We have evidence that among
          related
          > families in Upper Hungary, some spoke Slovak, some German, and some
          > Hungarian, though all shared the same family name.
          >
          > Janet
          >
        • Andrea Vangor
          If you are lucky, as I was, you may find old church records that give people s everyday nicknames. Alki, Borka, Hanc~a, Miso, Ondo, Giri, etc. Lovely. ...
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 31, 2005
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            If you are lucky, as I was, you may find old church records that give
            people's everyday nicknames.

            Alki, Borka, Hanc~a, Miso, Ondo, Giri, etc. Lovely.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "nurse_ildiko" <nurse_ildiko@...>
            To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:54 PM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames


            > Janet,
            > This is all very interesting! My maiden name is Kecskes. Thanks for
            > the info.
            > Ildiko Scott
            > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
            > wrote:
            >>
            >> I, too, have been fascinated by the practice of name changing both
            > because
            >> there are some prominent examples in history and because I
            > discovered some
            >> pretty startling ones in my own family name. In my case I have
            > traced the
            >> name from KOZLIK to KOZIK to KECSKES to KOZLAY. The family
            > originated in
            >> Upper Hungary, with a very Slavic name, and changed as they moved
            > further
            >> and further south and "became" Hungarian. These changes all took
            > place prior
            >> to 1850. (Kecskes is a translation of the Slavic word for "goat"
            > (Koz) to
            >> its Hungarian equivalent.) Slovak names were not the only ones to be
            >> "Hungarianized." Jewish, German, and Croatian names were also often
            > changed
            >> to more Hungarian ones, both in Hungary and in the U.S. It was
            > clearly an
            >> advantage in the 19th century to have a Hungarian name in Hungary,
            > and often
            >> was an advantage in the U.S., especially mid-century.
            >>
            >> However, I agree that some apparent name changes only reflect
            > spelling
            >> differences or the language in which the church records were
            > written, as
            >> pointed out both by "johnqadam" and by Bill Tarkulich. I, too,
            > question
            >> whether anyone was ever called Michael, or Johannes, despite their
            >> appearance in the records. As for Kristoffy/Kristofik, there are
            > old Latin
            >> records of Christoffi and Christoffi, which surely represent the
            > same name,
            >> if not the same family. Nor do I think you can make more than an
            > educated
            >> guess about what language a family spoke on the basis of how a name
            > was
            >> spelled in the records. There were so many ethnic groups living
            > together,
            >> they were almost forced to be multilingual unless they came from a
            > very
            >> small, ethnically "pure" village. We have evidence that among
            > related
            >> families in Upper Hungary, some spoke Slovak, some German, and some
            >> Hungarian, though all shared the same family name.
            >>
            >> Janet
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
            > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date: 10/28/2005
            >
            >
          • Bill Tarkulich
            You know, perhaps we should scout out a linguist somewhere who is interested in trans-language issues. It would be really interesting to see a integrated
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 1, 2005
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              You know, perhaps we should scout out a linguist somewhere who is
              interested in trans-language issues. It would be really interesting to
              see a integrated research. It might have already been done, perhaps in
              Hungary. There has been a lot of historical and cultural academic work
              done by the Universities in Hungary. However, they may not have been too
              interested in Slovakia. And in turn, Slovakia was never very interested
              in learning about their past rulers and oppressors, understandably so.

              The problem with our approach is that it's opportunistic - that is,
              whatever we stumble upon. Certainly not a complete treatment. Would be
              worth fishing around.

              The nickname/alias thing would make for fascinating study too. Ah, so
              much to do, so little time...

              Bill

              > If you are lucky, as I was, you may find old church records that give
              > people's everyday nicknames.
              >
              > Alki, Borka, Hanc~a, Miso, Ondo, Giri, etc. Lovely.
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "nurse_ildiko" <nurse_ildiko@...>
              > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:54 PM
              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames
              >
              >
              >> Janet,
              >> This is all very interesting! My maiden name is Kecskes. Thanks for
              >> the info.
              >> Ildiko Scott
              >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
              >> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> I, too, have been fascinated by the practice of name changing both
              >> because
              >>> there are some prominent examples in history and because I
              >> discovered some
              >>> pretty startling ones in my own family name. In my case I have
              >> traced the
              >>> name from KOZLIK to KOZIK to KECSKES to KOZLAY. The family
              >> originated in
              >>> Upper Hungary, with a very Slavic name, and changed as they moved
              >> further
              >>> and further south and "became" Hungarian. These changes all took
              >> place prior
              >>> to 1850. (Kecskes is a translation of the Slavic word for "goat"
              >> (Koz) to
              >>> its Hungarian equivalent.) Slovak names were not the only ones to be
              >>> "Hungarianized." Jewish, German, and Croatian names were also often
              >> changed
              >>> to more Hungarian ones, both in Hungary and in the U.S. It was
              >> clearly an
              >>> advantage in the 19th century to have a Hungarian name in Hungary,
              >> and often
              >>> was an advantage in the U.S., especially mid-century.
              >>>
              >>> However, I agree that some apparent name changes only reflect
              >> spelling
              >>> differences or the language in which the church records were
              >> written, as
              >>> pointed out both by "johnqadam" and by Bill Tarkulich. I, too,
              >> question
              >>> whether anyone was ever called Michael, or Johannes, despite their
              >>> appearance in the records. As for Kristoffy/Kristofik, there are
              >> old Latin
              >>> records of Christoffi and Christoffi, which surely represent the
              >> same name,
              >>> if not the same family. Nor do I think you can make more than an
              >> educated
              >>> guess about what language a family spoke on the basis of how a name
              >> was
              >>> spelled in the records. There were so many ethnic groups living
              >> together,
              >>> they were almost forced to be multilingual unless they came from a
              >> very
              >>> small, ethnically "pure" village. We have evidence that among
              >> related
              >>> families in Upper Hungary, some spoke Slovak, some German, and some
              >>> Hungarian, though all shared the same family name.
              >>>
              >>> Janet
              >>>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> --
              >> No virus found in this incoming message.
              >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              >> Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date:
              >> 10/28/2005
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
              > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Janet Kozlay
              I ll second that. It would be very interesting to learn more about this. Over the years there have been many queries about the meaning of alias as well as
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 1, 2005
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                I'll second that. It would be very interesting to learn more about this.
                Over the years there have been many queries about the meaning of "alias" as
                well as concerns over how a name is "really" spelled and related issues.
                Another is the issue of "prenames," where a branch of a family may take on a
                second name. In my searches I have found families using Name A, Name A-B,
                Name B-A, and Name B in different entries. Some families also had Junior and
                Senior branches. For a large extended family with several branches, it makes
                it difficult to place someone correctly unless this added information is
                included.

                Janet


                -----Original Message-----
                From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Bill Tarkulich
                Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:41 AM
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames

                You know, perhaps we should scout out a linguist somewhere who is
                interested in trans-language issues. It would be really interesting to
                see a integrated research. It might have already been done, perhaps in
                Hungary. There has been a lot of historical and cultural academic work
                done by the Universities in Hungary. However, they may not have been too
                interested in Slovakia. And in turn, Slovakia was never very interested
                in learning about their past rulers and oppressors, understandably so.

                The problem with our approach is that it's opportunistic - that is,
                whatever we stumble upon. Certainly not a complete treatment. Would be
                worth fishing around.

                The nickname/alias thing would make for fascinating study too. Ah, so
                much to do, so little time...

                Bill

                > If you are lucky, as I was, you may find old church records that give
                > people's everyday nicknames.
                >
                > Alki, Borka, Hanc~a, Miso, Ondo, Giri, etc. Lovely.
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "nurse_ildiko" <nurse_ildiko@...>
                > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:54 PM
                > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarianized Surnames
                >
                >
                >> Janet,
                >> This is all very interesting! My maiden name is Kecskes. Thanks for
                >> the info.
                >> Ildiko Scott
                >> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
                >> wrote:
                >>>
                >>> I, too, have been fascinated by the practice of name changing both
                >> because
                >>> there are some prominent examples in history and because I
                >> discovered some
                >>> pretty startling ones in my own family name. In my case I have
                >> traced the
                >>> name from KOZLIK to KOZIK to KECSKES to KOZLAY. The family
                >> originated in
                >>> Upper Hungary, with a very Slavic name, and changed as they moved
                >> further
                >>> and further south and "became" Hungarian. These changes all took
                >> place prior
                >>> to 1850. (Kecskes is a translation of the Slavic word for "goat"
                >> (Koz) to
                >>> its Hungarian equivalent.) Slovak names were not the only ones to be
                >>> "Hungarianized." Jewish, German, and Croatian names were also often
                >> changed
                >>> to more Hungarian ones, both in Hungary and in the U.S. It was
                >> clearly an
                >>> advantage in the 19th century to have a Hungarian name in Hungary,
                >> and often
                >>> was an advantage in the U.S., especially mid-century.
                >>>
                >>> However, I agree that some apparent name changes only reflect
                >> spelling
                >>> differences or the language in which the church records were
                >> written, as
                >>> pointed out both by "johnqadam" and by Bill Tarkulich. I, too,
                >> question
                >>> whether anyone was ever called Michael, or Johannes, despite their
                >>> appearance in the records. As for Kristoffy/Kristofik, there are
                >> old Latin
                >>> records of Christoffi and Christoffi, which surely represent the
                >> same name,
                >>> if not the same family. Nor do I think you can make more than an
                >> educated
                >>> guess about what language a family spoke on the basis of how a name
                >> was
                >>> spelled in the records. There were so many ethnic groups living
                >> together,
                >>> they were almost forced to be multilingual unless they came from a
                >> very
                >>> small, ethnically "pure" village. We have evidence that among
                >> related
                >>> families in Upper Hungary, some spoke Slovak, some German, and some
                >>> Hungarian, though all shared the same family name.
                >>>
                >>> Janet
                >>>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                >> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> --
                >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                >> Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date:
                >> 10/28/2005
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
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                >




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