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  • kddid_1999
    Thank you all for such great information, and help. You are just wonderful. Since I am just beginning my Ancestry search, one thing could you help explain to
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 14, 2005
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      Thank you all for such great information, and help. You are just
      wonderful. Since I am just beginning my Ancestry search, one thing
      could you help explain to me is the boundary or where the territory
      difference is between Slovakia and Czechloslovakia and where the
      territorys are? My Grandmother said she was for Slovakia and my
      Grandfather was from Czechoslovakia. I am finding the lands changed
      over so many times, I am confused, the dates would of been between
      1906, 1920s, and present day. Is that a bad question, since there
      probably was so many changes, but where is the boundary today, or is
      there one? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but it is confusing me
      in my research. Thank you, again for such great help.
    • Dennis Lee Bubla
      Actually, I am somewhat confused as well, not really by the borders, but also by the language spoken. While it appears that my gfather last lived in Skalska
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 19, 2005
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        Actually, I am somewhat confused as well, not really by the borders,
        but also by the language spoken. While it appears that my gfather last
        lived in Skalska Vad Nahom, which had many different names, he
        classified himself as a slovak, but spoke Bohemian. Looking at the map
        today of what was the Kingdon of Bohemia, this area is in
        Czechoslovakia, not Slovakia, and is farther north of Moravia. while
        we know that most did not travel far in those days, it seems
        unrealistic that one could classify himself as a Slovak, but speak
        Bohemian. Would he not classifiy himself as a Czech? On all the
        papers "after arrival, he stated he was from Czechoslovakia" while all
        the papers upon arrival, he stated he was from Hungary, and was a
        Slovak. While I understand the Slovak thing...and the Hungary thing
        from the history, what I may not understand is why he spoke Bohemian,
        or is that a form of the Slovak language. I do have his original
        Catholic prayer book (it has some hand writing in it), but am unable to
        discern the language, as it does not look like "standard Slovak."
        Would anyone be willing to take a gander at it if I scanned on or two
        pages, to be able to discern the language? The book appears to be from
        the 1850s. Dennis

        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "kddid_1999" <kdd2000@c...> wrote:
        > Thank you all for such great information, and help. You are just
        > wonderful. Since I am just beginning my Ancestry search, one thing
        > could you help explain to me is the boundary or where the territory
        > difference is between Slovakia and Czechloslovakia and where the
        > territorys are? My Grandmother said she was for Slovakia and my
        > Grandfather was from Czechoslovakia. I am finding the lands changed
        > over so many times, I am confused, the dates would of been between
        > 1906, 1920s, and present day. Is that a bad question, since there
        > probably was so many changes, but where is the boundary today, or is
        > there one? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but it is confusing me
        > in my research. Thank you, again for such great help.
      • Janet Kozlay
        It is my understanding that the Czech/Bohemian language is very similar to Slovak, enough that they can communicate without too much difficulty but different
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 19, 2005
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          It is my understanding that the Czech/Bohemian language is very similar to
          Slovak, enough that they can communicate without too much difficulty but
          different enough to be considered separate languages. (There is a pretty
          good article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_language.)

          From the maps it appears that Skalka Vad Nahom is in western Slovakia, very
          close to the Czech border. While it is easy to understand why he might call
          himself Hungarian at one time, Czechoslovak later, and Slovak still later,
          it is less understandable why he would call himself Bohemian--unless perhaps
          his family migrated to Slovakia from Bohemia. People really did move around,
          more than we tend to think they did. There seem to be almost wholesale
          migrations from one area to another, especially during the latter part of
          the 18th century. I have found, for instance, many people who moved from
          Turocz megye, in the far north, to Nograd megye, just north of Budapest, and
          there are numerous examples of Slovak villages in this traditionally
          Hungarian area. There might have been similar migrations southeast from
          Bohemia.

          As for the writing, Charlie Fronzek gave me some good information on the old
          script--that it was derived from a form of the old Germanic script and is
          extremely difficult for people to read today. Both Czech and Slovak writers
          used this interesting script in the 19th century. We have a sample of it
          written by my husband's great-grandfather, who was Hungarian but knew both
          Slovak and Czech. He wrote a poem in Slovak in which he used that script.
          This was probably written in the 1840s. It is very distinctive and very
          beautiful. I ran across it once again in church records from a Slovak
          village in Nograd megye. He also informed me that it is very likely that the
          church used a well-known Czech bible.

          Perhaps Charlie can add more of his expertise to the subject.

          Janet
        • Bill Tarkulich
          Dennis, Many people confuse nationality with ethnicity. It appears that you understand the distinction, but I will go over it for others on the list.
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 19, 2005
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            Dennis,

            Many people confuse nationality with ethnicity. It appears that you
            understand the distinction, but I will go over it for others on the list.

            Nationality -
            Bohemia and Moravia were a provinces of Austria (pre-1918). The principle
            language was Czech. After 1918, they were incorporated into Czechoslovakia
            (excluding WWII years), and today are incorporated into the Czech Republic.
            For the most part, the dominant ethnicity was Czech and the dominant
            languages were Czech and German (Austrian rule.)

            Hungary consisted of a few dozen counties. The territory where Slovakia is
            today was incorporated into Czechoslovakia. After 1991 it became Slovak
            Republic. The primary spoken language was Slovak(west and central), though
            Magyar (Hungarian) was forced onto these people in the late 1800s. These
            people were primarily ethnic Slovak in the West and Central, and ethnic
            Rusyn in the East.

            Ethnic - Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and
            distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage;
            The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language.

            Czechoslovakia consisted of Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia and Transcarpathia
            between WWI and WWII. After WWII it was Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia.
            Even under communisms the distinction was made between the "Czech lands" and
            the "slovak lands." It was even administratively segregated that way.

            As for Skalska Vad Nahom, this is "Skalka nad Váhom" (Skalka on the Vah
            river)
            You can see it on a map here http://tinyurl.com/ckuuw
            Notice, it is right on the Czech - Slovakia border. There was every region
            in the world that they spoke a little of both languages. No border clearly
            blocks culture (unless it is communism, totalitarism or dictatorship!) The
            geography dictates a lot and provides a lot of the answers. This is why
            maps are so important.

            In 1910, Skalka nad Váhom was called VAGSZIKLAS in Magyar. This was in
            TRENCSEN county. It had a population of 225, consisting of 27 Magyar, 4
            Germans, 190 Slovaks. ; of these, 219 Roman Catholic and 6 Jews. I am not
            well versed on the boundary changes in this region, but I can state with
            some confidence that there was some fluidity during those times. Remember,
            back in 1910, the Czech-Slovak boundary in this region was the Austria
            Empire-Hungary Kingdom boundary. While it appears that this village
            remained in the Kingdom Hungary.

            Hope this helps.

            ______________
            Bill Tarkulich




            -----Original Message-----
            From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Dennis Lee Bubla
            Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:11 AM
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [S-R] Re: confused


            Actually, I am somewhat confused as well, not really by the borders,
            but also by the language spoken. While it appears that my gfather last
            lived in Skalska Vad Nahom, which had many different names, he
            classified himself as a slovak, but spoke Bohemian. Looking at the map
            today of what was the Kingdon of Bohemia, this area is in
            Czechoslovakia, not Slovakia, and is farther north of Moravia. while
            we know that most did not travel far in those days, it seems
            unrealistic that one could classify himself as a Slovak, but speak
            Bohemian. Would he not classifiy himself as a Czech? On all the
            papers "after arrival, he stated he was from Czechoslovakia" while all
            the papers upon arrival, he stated he was from Hungary, and was a
            Slovak. While I understand the Slovak thing...and the Hungary thing
            from the history, what I may not understand is why he spoke Bohemian,
            or is that a form of the Slovak language. I do have his original
            Catholic prayer book (it has some hand writing in it), but am unable to
            discern the language, as it does not look like "standard Slovak."
            Would anyone be willing to take a gander at it if I scanned on or two
            pages, to be able to discern the language? The book appears to be from
            the 1850s. Dennis

            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "kddid_1999" <kdd2000@c...> wrote:
            > Thank you all for such great information, and help. You are just
            > wonderful. Since I am just beginning my Ancestry search, one thing
            > could you help explain to me is the boundary or where the territory
            > difference is between Slovakia and Czechloslovakia and where the
            > territorys are? My Grandmother said she was for Slovakia and my
            > Grandfather was from Czechoslovakia. I am finding the lands changed
            > over so many times, I am confused, the dates would of been between
            > 1906, 1920s, and present day. Is that a bad question, since there
            > probably was so many changes, but where is the boundary today, or is
            > there one? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but it is confusing me
            > in my research. Thank you, again for such great help.




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          • Dr. Joe Q.
            An excellent thumb nail description of Czech - o - Slovakia and Moravia and Bohemia. There are a lot of details that are really accidental when looking at the
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 19, 2005
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              An excellent thumb nail description of Czech - o - Slovakia and Moravia
              and Bohemia. There are a lot of details that are really accidental when
              looking at the big picture.

              You can spend a great deal of time parsing the differences between
              "Czech" vs "Moravia" vs "Bohemia" vs "Slovakia" and then get even more
              detailed with the Austrian, Galicia, Selisia, Hungarian, Rusyn, etc.
              distinctions, but the overall picture is to understand that Czech is now
              Bohemia and Moravia, while Slovakia is the former Upper Hungary (and
              recently former eastern Czechoslovakia). There are some pieces of Upper
              Hungary that now belong to other countries. You can argue about the
              ethnicity and so on regarding those pieces of real estate, but the land
              now belongs to Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Ukraine, and Romania.
              It is very interesting to follow the change of ownership, but to dig in
              and claim that a particular piece of land is "Ruthenia" because it was
              inhabited by people who called themselves "Ruthenians" (and I don't
              think they used that name) in the late 1890 - 1900's doesn't necessarily
              make them Ruthenians in 2005. There is no Republic of Texas or Republic
              of California now - - - go back 150+ years and they did exist.

              Dr. "Q"

              Bill Tarkulich wrote:

              >Dennis,
              >
              >Many people confuse nationality with ethnicity. It appears that you
              >understand the distinction, but I will go over it for others on the list.
              >
              >Nationality -
              >Bohemia and Moravia were a provinces of Austria (pre-1918). The principle
              >language was Czech. After 1918, they were incorporated into Czechoslovakia
              >(excluding WWII years), and today are incorporated into the Czech Republic.
              >For the most part, the dominant ethnicity was Czech and the dominant
              >languages were Czech and German (Austrian rule.)
              >
              >Hungary consisted of a few dozen counties. The territory where Slovakia is
              >today was incorporated into Czechoslovakia. After 1991 it became Slovak
              >Republic. The primary spoken language was Slovak(west and central), though
              >Magyar (Hungarian) was forced onto these people in the late 1800s. These
              >people were primarily ethnic Slovak in the West and Central, and ethnic
              >Rusyn in the East.
              >
              >Ethnic - Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and
              >distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage;
              >The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language.
              >
              >Czechoslovakia consisted of Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia and Transcarpathia
              >between WWI and WWII. After WWII it was Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia.
              >Even under communisms the distinction was made between the "Czech lands" and
              >the "slovak lands." It was even administratively segregated that way.
              >
              >As for Skalska Vad Nahom, this is "Skalka nad Váhom" (Skalka on the Vah
              >river)
              >You can see it on a map here http://tinyurl.com/ckuuw
              >Notice, it is right on the Czech - Slovakia border. There was every region
              >in the world that they spoke a little of both languages. No border clearly
              >blocks culture (unless it is communism, totalitarism or dictatorship!) The
              >geography dictates a lot and provides a lot of the answers. This is why
              >maps are so important.
              >
              >In 1910, Skalka nad Váhom was called VAGSZIKLAS in Magyar. This was in
              >TRENCSEN county. It had a population of 225, consisting of 27 Magyar, 4
              >Germans, 190 Slovaks. ; of these, 219 Roman Catholic and 6 Jews. I am not
              >well versed on the boundary changes in this region, but I can state with
              >some confidence that there was some fluidity during those times. Remember,
              >back in 1910, the Czech-Slovak boundary in this region was the Austria
              >Empire-Hungary Kingdom boundary. While it appears that this village
              >remained in the Kingdom Hungary.
              >
              >Hope this helps.
              >
              >______________
              >Bill Tarkulich
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >-----Original Message-----
              >From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
              >Behalf Of Dennis Lee Bubla
              >Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:11 AM
              >To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [S-R] Re: confused
              >
              >
              >Actually, I am somewhat confused as well, not really by the borders,
              >but also by the language spoken. While it appears that my gfather last
              >lived in Skalska Vad Nahom, which had many different names, he
              >classified himself as a slovak, but spoke Bohemian. Looking at the map
              >today of what was the Kingdon of Bohemia, this area is in
              >Czechoslovakia, not Slovakia, and is farther north of Moravia. while
              >we know that most did not travel far in those days, it seems
              >unrealistic that one could classify himself as a Slovak, but speak
              >Bohemian. Would he not classifiy himself as a Czech? On all the
              >papers "after arrival, he stated he was from Czechoslovakia" while all
              >the papers upon arrival, he stated he was from Hungary, and was a
              >Slovak. While I understand the Slovak thing...and the Hungary thing
              >from the history, what I may not understand is why he spoke Bohemian,
              >or is that a form of the Slovak language. I do have his original
              >Catholic prayer book (it has some hand writing in it), but am unable to
              >discern the language, as it does not look like "standard Slovak."
              >Would anyone be willing to take a gander at it if I scanned on or two
              >pages, to be able to discern the language? The book appears to be from
              >the 1850s. Dennis
              >
              >--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "kddid_1999" <kdd2000@c...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>Thank you all for such great information, and help. You are just
              >>wonderful. Since I am just beginning my Ancestry search, one thing
              >>could you help explain to me is the boundary or where the territory
              >>difference is between Slovakia and Czechloslovakia and where the
              >>territorys are? My Grandmother said she was for Slovakia and my
              >>Grandfather was from Czechoslovakia. I am finding the lands changed
              >>over so many times, I am confused, the dates would of been between
              >>1906, 1920s, and present day. Is that a bad question, since there
              >>probably was so many changes, but where is the boundary today, or is
              >>there one? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but it is confusing me
              >>in my research. Thank you, again for such great help.
              >>
            • Joe Mrnka
              Dennis, there may be a question of dialect. I have actual first hand experience of Skalka nad Vahom. My mom was born there, and I lived there for a few years.
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 26, 2005
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                Dennis,

                there may be a question of dialect. I have actual first hand experience of Skalka
                nad Vahom. My mom was born there, and I lived there for a few years.
                The old-timers spoke a dialect with many Moravian words mixed in. I have at least
                one great grandfather that was born in Moravia. In my grandparents vocabulary were
                plenty of German and Hungarian words mixed in as well. That is why it may be hard
                to characterize the language a person spoke. The transitions between regions used
                to be much more gray than the relatively sharper transitions in language and
                political borders seen today.
                I recall hearing something from my teacher saying that in the past there was a
                continuum between Czech and Slovak languages. At times it was hard to tell whether
                the language spoken was Czech or Slovak. The standardizing of both languages in the
                19th century and subsequent revivals of national identity brought about a more
                clear distinction.
                I hope this gives you another piece of the puzzle.

                Joe





                ____________________________________________________
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              • Dennis Lee Bubla
                It sure does. Any pictures from Skalka ... locate his family over there. Dennis ... experience of Skalka ... years. ... have at least ... vocabulary were ...
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 14, 2005
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                  It sure does. Any pictures from Skalka
                  > nad Vahom, for that is where my gf was born. Still trying to
                  locate his family over there. Dennis

                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Joe Mrnka <jmrnka@y...> wrote:
                  > Dennis,
                  >
                  > there may be a question of dialect. I have actual first hand
                  experience of Skalka
                  > nad Vahom. My mom was born there, and I lived there for a few
                  years.
                  > The old-timers spoke a dialect with many Moravian words mixed in. I
                  have at least
                  > one great grandfather that was born in Moravia. In my grandparents
                  vocabulary were
                  > plenty of German and Hungarian words mixed in as well. That is why
                  it may be hard
                  > to characterize the language a person spoke. The transitions
                  between regions used
                  > to be much more gray than the relatively sharper transitions in
                  language and
                  > political borders seen today.
                  > I recall hearing something from my teacher saying that in the past
                  there was a
                  > continuum between Czech and Slovak languages. At times it was hard
                  to tell whether
                  > the language spoken was Czech or Slovak. The standardizing of both
                  languages in the
                  > 19th century and subsequent revivals of national identity brought
                  about a more
                  > clear distinction.
                  > I hope this gives you another piece of the puzzle.
                  >
                  > Joe
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________________________________________________
                  > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
                  > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                • Joe Mrnka
                  Dennis, I haven t checked the email digests in over a week. I will look around at home to see if we got some old pictures. There isn t much to the town, a
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 21, 2005
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                    Dennis,

                    I haven't checked the email digests in over a week. I will look around at home to
                    see if we got some old pictures. There isn't much to the town, a general store,
                    post office. One church on a hill above town, and another a couple miles further up
                    the hill along the road to Trencin. There are also some ruins of a 600 year old
                    Jesuit monastary. The monastary was inaccesible during the soviet occupation of the
                    hill, from '68 - '90. Within the hill there are some deep caverns that were built
                    during WWII by the germans. It was rumored that WMD's were kept there during those
                    years. Now it's a vegetable cellar.

                    I have asked my mother about the name Bubla, because she grew up in Skalska nova
                    Ves and she helped deliver the mails for about 5+ years about 50+ years ago. She
                    has said that she doesn't remember the name.

                    Joe

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