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Property issues

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  • Vladimir Bohinc
    I am glad I touched some nervs with this tory, but am again a bit disappointed. This seems to be a kind of natural phenomenon; It happened more than once, that
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 20, 2005
      I am glad I touched some nervs with this tory, but am again a bit disappointed. This seems to be a kind of natural phenomenon; It happened more than once, that after I posted something of this sort, they reply was : " Ah, we know that. America is full of that."
      Of course you all know that and I know that too. This, however, is not the point. US is a very mature country in many respects, meaning, it has experienced practically everything before it came to this stage.
      Well, almost everything. US did not experience Middle Ages and Feudalism. It experienced slavery, though.
      The issue here is Slovakia and it's people, who were experiencing Feudalism and Communism practically till yesterday.
      It's the old people, who have little idea how the brutal capitalistic system is working and many have neither the knowledge, nor the means and guts to fight and they resignate.
      Slovakia is full of real estate brokers. Many of them crooks too ( just like everywhere).
      A real estate broker is a legitimate business, they have their National Association ( NARKS - several years I was a member of it and my Certificate has a serial number 0006). His commission ( usually 3 to 4%)is regulated by the Rules and Contract.
      In our case, a broker would probably not be interested and would have very little chance.
      Since I presume, everybody on the list is interested in understanding Slovakia, I posted this for you to see, what these people have to deal with and how they are on the loosing side, while the others will tomorrow be praised as " Successful entrepreneurs".
      Vladimir

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dr. Joe Q.
      Dear Vladimir, Please understand that we (in the USA and particularly those of us with Slovakia relatives) have a deep sensitivity regarding what you have
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 20, 2005
        Dear Vladimir,

        Please understand that we (in the USA and particularly those of us with
        Slovakia relatives) have a deep sensitivity regarding what you have
        described. However, as has been pointed out by others, what you
        described has happened here in the US years ago. That does not make it
        acceptable, but we understand. Unfortunately, those living under the
        communists for the past 50+ years have come to expect certain things
        (they are called entitlement programs here, but no one would imply that
        they are socialistic or communistic [as far as I have been able to
        determine; the only difference between socialists and communists is that
        the communists get to their goal faster]) and seem to have grown
        complacent with the previous programs. Those who have objected we
        summarily dismissed or perhaps sent to jail because they were viewed as
        reactionaries.

        The poor folks who have lost their land certainly were taken advantage
        of, but it doesn't mean that Slovakia is headed in the wrong direction
        by adopting capitalistic ways. The people of Slovakia have to be
        cautious and learn a different way of living.

        Dr. "Q"

        Vladimir Bohinc wrote:

        >I am glad I touched some nervs with this tory, but am again a bit disappointed. This seems to be a kind of natural phenomenon; It happened more than once, that after I posted something of this sort, they reply was : " Ah, we know that. America is full of that."
        >Of course you all know that and I know that too. This, however, is not the point. US is a very mature country in many respects, meaning, it has experienced practically everything before it came to this stage.
        >Well, almost everything. US did not experience Middle Ages and Feudalism. It experienced slavery, though.
        >The issue here is Slovakia and it's people, who were experiencing Feudalism and Communism practically till yesterday.
        >It's the old people, who have little idea how the brutal capitalistic system is working and many have neither the knowledge, nor the means and guts to fight and they resignate.
        >Slovakia is full of real estate brokers. Many of them crooks too ( just like everywhere).
        >A real estate broker is a legitimate business, they have their National Association ( NARKS - several years I was a member of it and my Certificate has a serial number 0006). His commission ( usually 3 to 4%)is regulated by the Rules and Contract.
        >In our case, a broker would probably not be interested and would have very little chance.
        >Since I presume, everybody on the list is interested in understanding Slovakia, I posted this for you to see, what these people have to deal with and how they are on the loosing side, while the others will tomorrow be praised as " Successful entrepreneurs".
        >Vladimir
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      • nhasior@aol.com
        Dear Vladimir, Where do the people go after they sell their property? If they are elderly, do they have pensions to live on? I guess i am wondering why one
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 21, 2005
          Dear Vladimir,
          Where do the people go after they sell their property? If they are elderly,
          do they have pensions to live on?
          I guess i am wondering why one would sell their property after they struggled
          to keep it in the family for generations through wars and other hardships.
          Is there something else they are trying to do? do they need the money for a
          new life somewhere else?
          Or are they being forced or muscled to sell with threats? most my family
          came to America in about 1905. they struggled for two generations. One thing i
          remember my mother telling me is that education and property are the keys to a
          better life.
          Noreen


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Vladimir Bohinc
          Dear Noreen, I see, some further explanation is needed; Take a typical family from village; Before communism, they owned: - a house - a barn - a garden -
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 21, 2005
            Dear Noreen,
            I see, some further explanation is needed;
            Take a typical family from village;
            Before communism, they owned:
            - a house
            - a barn
            - a garden
            - fields and pastures
            - wood
            Now, with the introduction of collective farms, the farmers were forced to give all suitable land to the collective farm, which made large unified fields for large scale cultivation. If you come to Slovakia, you will see those large fields often spanning over hills and large areas. They have mostly been created out of such smaller entities, belonging to the farmers.
            Farmers were then working on those farms as employees ( working on their own land) for a small pay.
            Actually, the communist system wanted to transform all farmers into proletarians, having only a house ( or a flat) and a small garden. This is why there were factories built in rural areas, which attracted manpower and this is all the huge appartment block settlements, which you can see next to practically each town. They were filled with proletarians.
            Collective farms also were building such appartment houses for their own workers and factories did the same.
            Now, with this privatization of collective farms, people who would like to call the collective farm their own, they have to get rid of still legal owners of the land which constitutes the "property" of the collective farm.
            They do it in a following way; The management of the collective farm establishes a corporation, paralell to the collective farm ( same management, same offices) and begin to transfer the property from the collective farm to the new corporation by using all kinds of tricks and holes in the Law. They also artificially lower the real value of the collective farm to that extent, that it goes broke and has "no value any more", so they can acquire it cheap.
            This is here called "Tunnelling".
            In the case of Cachtice, they were offering the owners only 10% of the real value for their shares and they were so persuasive ( giving them no alternative), that some elderly people thaught, better 10% than nothing and sold their share.
            Of course, others, who know more, were against it and this is why the whole thing went on TV.
            There is a very funny Law here regarding property. If you can prove with two witnesses, that you are using a certain property for 10 years and if the (bribed) Mayor can confirm this, you can become the legal owner of the property, despite the fact, that the real owner is maybe your neighbor, but you did not tell him, that you want to claim this property for yourself, so the real owner will be quite surprised when he sees in the Land record office, that he is not the owner any more. This has happened in the family of my wife and in many many others. Very fresh case. You can go to the court and claim it back, but maybe your children will see the final verdict.
            The same is with woods. Huge areas of woods have in this way been stolen from the people and we now have a class of rich and "esteemed" barons.
            All this leaves our pure farmer with his house and a little garden and a little pension and his children, who fight for the rest of inheritance.
            I am wondering why the govt, by knowing the people and the situation, did not prevent this. It is a general belief here, that such crazy laws are there because the lawmakers took into account their own personal plans and intentions and after this has been accomplished, the laws can be changed, but they will remain owners of properties acquired in such unethic way.
            This is why the lawmakers are not able to pass the law, which would require from every rich person to prove the origin of his wealth.
            So, our poor farmer is just sitting there in his village home and watching, how his property and results of his work are vanishing and how the new owners are driving around with fat SUV's and building their Mansions.
            The new Era is taking it's toll again.
            Vladimir


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: nhasior@...
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 12:02 PM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues


            Dear Vladimir,
            Where do the people go after they sell their property? If they are elderly,
            do they have pensions to live on?
            I guess i am wondering why one would sell their property after they struggled
            to keep it in the family for generations through wars and other hardships.
            Is there something else they are trying to do? do they need the money for a
            new life somewhere else?
            Or are they being forced or muscled to sell with threats? most my family
            came to America in about 1905. they struggled for two generations. One thing i
            remember my mother telling me is that education and property are the keys to a
            better life.
            Noreen


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Vladimir Bohinc
            Dear Noreen, I rechecked the situation and have to make a little correction. This law, which enabled privatization after 10 years of use has been slightly
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 21, 2005
              Dear Noreen,
              I rechecked the situation and have to make a little correction. This law, which enabled privatization after 10 years of use has been slightly modified in 2000. Since then the real owner has to make a written agreement. If he is dead, then all of his heirs.
              Regards,
              Vladimir

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: nhasior@...
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 12:02 PM
              Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues


              Dear Vladimir,
              Where do the people go after they sell their property? If they are elderly,
              do they have pensions to live on?
              I guess i am wondering why one would sell their property after they struggled
              to keep it in the family for generations through wars and other hardships.
              Is there something else they are trying to do? do they need the money for a
              new life somewhere else?
              Or are they being forced or muscled to sell with threats? most my family
              came to America in about 1905. they struggled for two generations. One thing i
              remember my mother telling me is that education and property are the keys to a
              better life.
              Noreen


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • Peter Nagy
              Dear all, Vladimir has shown a typical example, how Slovakia is transforming. My mother in law sold her shares in the cooperative for 20% of nominal value,
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 21, 2005
                Dear all,

                Vladimir has shown a typical example, how Slovakia is transforming. My
                mother in law sold her shares in the cooperative for 20% of nominal
                value, thus it was a good business comparing with Cachtice. I do not
                remember if Vladimir described, what are these shares. In about 1991 the
                former agricultural cooperatives were transformed to new entities. There
                were meetings of all cooperative members and landowners and they had to
                decide, if the cooperative should be transformed to the new cooperative
                or to a Ltd. Of course, in 1991 nobody had any imaginations, what does
                it mean. Obligatory part of the transformation process was the
                evaluation of the cooperative. It included the buildings, the animals,
                the machines, the stocks, etc., but not the land! In Czechoslovakia in
                most cases the cooperatives were not owners of the land, which they
                cultivated. Of course, the cooperative produced this property on the
                foreign land. In order to compensate the land owners for 40 years of
                free land use by the cooperatives, the land owners or their heirs got a
                special securities (shares, podielnicke listy) which were intended to
                pay in cash in 10 years. Later Mr. Meciar changed the law and the
                cooperatives were not obliged any more to pay the financial compensation
                for the land owners - this was the true robbery. These "podielnicke
                listy" were long time considered as piece of paper without any value.
                Only in present a market for these securities is emerging again. The
                market value of the cooperative shares were due to Meciar's intervention
                0%, now they are between 10-20 % of the nominal value.

                I have to add, that this did not tackle the land ownership. The land
                ownership is another story.

                Peter

                --
                Cilistovska 20
                931 01 Samorin
                Slovak Republic

                tel: +421 31 560 0641
                mobile: +421 905 490 552
                http://www.centroconsult.sk
              • Bill Tarkulich
                Hello Peter and Vladimir, It might be instructive to those unfamiliar with the Slovak Republic economy for you to give them a sense of the monetary value we
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 21, 2005
                  Hello Peter and Vladimir,

                  It might be instructive to those unfamiliar with the Slovak Republic economy
                  for you to give them a sense of the monetary value we are talking about.
                  What is the typical sales price (or range or average) that people are
                  receiving for their cooperative shares?

                  By the way, my cousins in northeastern Slovakia advise me that land sales in
                  their region are not handled by brokers, at least not those sales in small
                  remote villages. Perhaps there is not enough of a "market" to make it
                  worthwhile?

                  ______________
                  Bill Tarkulich




                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: centroco@... [mailto:centroco@...] On Behalf Of Peter
                  Nagy
                  Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:24 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues



                  Dear all,

                  Vladimir has shown a typical example, how Slovakia is transforming. My
                  mother in law sold her shares in the cooperative for 20% of nominal
                  value, thus it was a good business comparing with Cachtice. I do not
                  remember if Vladimir described, what are these shares. In about 1991 the
                  former agricultural cooperatives were transformed to new entities. There
                  were meetings of all cooperative members and landowners and they had to
                  decide, if the cooperative should be transformed to the new cooperative
                  or to a Ltd. Of course, in 1991 nobody had any imaginations, what does
                  it mean. Obligatory part of the transformation process was the
                  evaluation of the cooperative. It included the buildings, the animals,
                  the machines, the stocks, etc., but not the land! In Czechoslovakia in
                  most cases the cooperatives were not owners of the land, which they
                  cultivated. Of course, the cooperative produced this property on the
                  foreign land. In order to compensate the land owners for 40 years of
                  free land use by the cooperatives, the land owners or their heirs got a
                  special securities (shares, podielnicke listy) which were intended to
                  pay in cash in 10 years. Later Mr. Meciar changed the law and the
                  cooperatives were not obliged any more to pay the financial compensation
                  for the land owners - this was the true robbery. These "podielnicke
                  listy" were long time considered as piece of paper without any value.
                  Only in present a market for these securities is emerging again. The
                  market value of the cooperative shares were due to Meciar's intervention
                  0%, now they are between 10-20 % of the nominal value.

                  I have to add, that this did not tackle the land ownership. The land
                  ownership is another story.

                  Peter

                  --
                  Cilistovska 20
                  931 01 Samorin
                  Slovak Republic

                  tel: +421 31 560 0641
                  mobile: +421 905 490 552
                  http://www.centroconsult.sk





                  To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                • nhasior@aol.com
                  Dear Vladimir, Thank you for your very interesting summary of what happened during the past 50 years to the property of the Cachtice farmer. I recall
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 22, 2005
                    Dear Vladimir,
                    Thank you for your very interesting summary of what happened during the past
                    50 years to the property of the Cachtice farmer. I recall standing on the
                    hill at the cemetery in Liptovska Teplicka, near to Poprad, and looking out at
                    the forests and the huge tracts of land outside of the village area where the
                    houses stood. i was maybe looking at a former collective farm and did not
                    realize it.
                    I remember writing that in Slovakia, there are houses huddled all in the same
                    area and farm areas surrounding the entire village. In south Poland, I saw
                    that the houses are far apart and the property surrounds the house. My
                    friend left Poland somewhere about 1956, when she was a little girl of about 8
                    years old. her home was in town and the family was given a plot outside of the
                    village to use as a garden. Europe has some concepts for land ownership that
                    are interesting.
                    Concerning Cachtice, did the management of the collective farm under the
                    Communist system, somehow become the owner of the property once Communism was
                    ended? Is this where the two witnesses and the Mayor collaborated and acquired
                    the land? The average farmer, unless educated or knowing someone who
                    understood legal matters, would feel completely helpless to outsmart such greed.
                    The plan to make wealthy people show the way they acquired their fortunes
                    sounds like a very good way to combat the greed.
                    Best Wishes,
                    Noreen


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • nhasior@aol.com
                    Dear Peter, Is their any way for the owners of these podielnicke listy securities to get a fair value for their property? I will be showing my ignorance
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 22, 2005
                      Dear Peter,
                      Is their any way for the owners of these ''podielnicke listy'' securities
                      to get a fair value for their property? I will be showing my ignorance about
                      real estate law, but i have to ask. if something is collective, i wonder why
                      the durable goods such as machinery etc were separated from the land when the
                      "podielnicke listy'' was created. After selling the durable goods shares for
                      20%, will your mother-in-law still retain the land?
                      Thank you for your interesting post.
                      Noreen


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bill Tarkulich
                      Noreen, My great-grandfather was born in Wetlina Poland, right on the border of Slovakia. This was in the region affected by the 1947 Operation Vistula
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 22, 2005
                        Noreen,

                        My great-grandfather was born in Wetlina Poland, right on the border of Slovakia. This was in the region affected by the 1947 "Operation Vistula" government depopulation pogrom, which burned down many of the homes in more than 60 villages in SE Poland. What you see today, dispersed homes is the after-effect of this action. In the 1960s Poles were allowed to settle and build in the area.

                        If you look at castradal maps of the region, you'll see the original village houses were all clusted together in a small section. This was always the case when the land was owned by barons, serving the dual purpose of minimizing living space for peasants and village protection.
                        See http://tinyurl.com/create.php for one such map of Wetlina.

                        Bill

                        >
                        > From: nhasior@...
                        > Date: 2005/03/22 Tue AM 06:15:22 EST
                        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear Vladimir,
                        > Thank you for your very interesting summary of what happened during the past
                        > 50 years to the property of the Cachtice farmer. I recall standing on the
                        > hill at the cemetery in Liptovska Teplicka, near to Poprad, and looking out at
                        > the forests and the huge tracts of land outside of the village area where the
                        > houses stood. i was maybe looking at a former collective farm and did not
                        > realize it.
                        > I remember writing that in Slovakia, there are houses huddled all in the same
                        > area and farm areas surrounding the entire village. In south Poland, I saw
                        > that the houses are far apart and the property surrounds the house. My
                        > friend left Poland somewhere about 1956, when she was a little girl of about 8
                        > years old. her home was in town and the family was given a plot outside of the
                        > village to use as a garden. Europe has some concepts for land ownership that
                        > are interesting.
                        > Concerning Cachtice, did the management of the collective farm under the
                        > Communist system, somehow become the owner of the property once Communism was
                        > ended? Is this where the two witnesses and the Mayor collaborated and acquired
                        > the land? The average farmer, unless educated or knowing someone who
                        > understood legal matters, would feel completely helpless to outsmart such greed.
                        > The plan to make wealthy people show the way they acquired their fortunes
                        > sounds like a very good way to combat the greed.
                        > Best Wishes,
                        > Noreen
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Vladimir Bohinc
                        Dear Bill, I don t know. I would have to ask somebody involved, but you may expect this to vary so much, that one would have to make several checks to figure
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 22, 2005
                          Dear Bill,
                          I don't know. I would have to ask somebody involved, but you may expect this to vary so much, that one would have to make several checks to figure out an approximate average value.
                          Regarding the land and brokers; if the land is or can be turned into construction land, then they have interest. If it's only fields or pastures, then they usually are not interested. The one who might be interested is the neighbor.
                          Some of you have seen slovak villages, how they are suffocated with large fields. All these fields are called Extravilan, and you can not build a house there. So there was a great shortage of construction land. Usually einther an old house was torn down and a new built or a new house was built on the other end of the garden.
                          Nowadays, investors are already turning fileds and pastures into construction land.
                          Vladimir

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Bill Tarkulich
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:43 AM
                          Subject: RE: [S-R] Property issues


                          Hello Peter and Vladimir,

                          It might be instructive to those unfamiliar with the Slovak Republic economy
                          for you to give them a sense of the monetary value we are talking about.
                          What is the typical sales price (or range or average) that people are
                          receiving for their cooperative shares?

                          By the way, my cousins in northeastern Slovakia advise me that land sales in
                          their region are not handled by brokers, at least not those sales in small
                          remote villages. Perhaps there is not enough of a "market" to make it
                          worthwhile?

                          ______________
                          Bill Tarkulich




                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: centroco@... [mailto:centroco@...] On Behalf Of Peter
                          Nagy
                          Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:24 AM
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues



                          Dear all,

                          Vladimir has shown a typical example, how Slovakia is transforming. My
                          mother in law sold her shares in the cooperative for 20% of nominal
                          value, thus it was a good business comparing with Cachtice. I do not
                          remember if Vladimir described, what are these shares. In about 1991 the
                          former agricultural cooperatives were transformed to new entities. There
                          were meetings of all cooperative members and landowners and they had to
                          decide, if the cooperative should be transformed to the new cooperative
                          or to a Ltd. Of course, in 1991 nobody had any imaginations, what does
                          it mean. Obligatory part of the transformation process was the
                          evaluation of the cooperative. It included the buildings, the animals,
                          the machines, the stocks, etc., but not the land! In Czechoslovakia in
                          most cases the cooperatives were not owners of the land, which they
                          cultivated. Of course, the cooperative produced this property on the
                          foreign land. In order to compensate the land owners for 40 years of
                          free land use by the cooperatives, the land owners or their heirs got a
                          special securities (shares, podielnicke listy) which were intended to
                          pay in cash in 10 years. Later Mr. Meciar changed the law and the
                          cooperatives were not obliged any more to pay the financial compensation
                          for the land owners - this was the true robbery. These "podielnicke
                          listy" were long time considered as piece of paper without any value.
                          Only in present a market for these securities is emerging again. The
                          market value of the cooperative shares were due to Meciar's intervention
                          0%, now they are between 10-20 % of the nominal value.

                          I have to add, that this did not tackle the land ownership. The land
                          ownership is another story.

                          Peter

                          --
                          Cilistovska 20
                          931 01 Samorin
                          Slovak Republic

                          tel: +421 31 560 0641
                          mobile: +421 905 490 552
                          http://www.centroconsult.sk





                          To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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                          SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                          Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Bill Tarkulich
                          Your comments about variablity apply of course. Supply, demand and strategic importance. Using the benchmarck of a two-bedroom residential home,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 22, 2005
                            Your comments about variablity apply of course. Supply, demand and strategic importance.

                            "Using the benchmarck of a two-bedroom residential home, Fedoroňko estimated that the average dwelling in Bratislava city proper was presently listed at between two and three million Slovak crowns ($45,000-$60,000), while a similar house within 15 kilometers of the city centre was 1.5-2 million crowns ($30,000-$45,000) and beyond 30 kilometers of the capital below 500,000 crowns ($12,000)." Slovak Spectator, June, 1999. [ 50 SKK = 1 USD in 1999 ]

                            I just want people to get an appreciation for the relative economics, since the 2004 U. S. median sales price of a home is 218,000USD (7,433.423SKK) [ 30 SKK = 1 USD in 3/2005]



                            >
                            > From: "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
                            > Date: 2005/03/22 Tue AM 11:58:43 EST
                            > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Bill,
                            > I don't know. I would have to ask somebody involved, but you may expect this to vary so much, that one would have to make several checks to figure out an approximate average value.
                            > Regarding the land and brokers; if the land is or can be turned into construction land, then they have interest. If it's only fields or pastures, then they usually are not interested. The one who might be interested is the neighbor.
                            > Some of you have seen slovak villages, how they are suffocated with large fields. All these fields are called Extravilan, and you can not build a house there. So there was a great shortage of construction land. Usually einther an old house was torn down and a new built or a new house was built on the other end of the garden.
                            > Nowadays, investors are already turning fileds and pastures into construction land.
                            > Vladimir
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Bill Tarkulich
                            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:43 AM
                            > Subject: RE: [S-R] Property issues
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Peter and Vladimir,
                            >
                            > It might be instructive to those unfamiliar with the Slovak Republic economy
                            > for you to give them a sense of the monetary value we are talking about.
                            > What is the typical sales price (or range or average) that people are
                            > receiving for their cooperative shares?
                            >
                            > By the way, my cousins in northeastern Slovakia advise me that land sales in
                            > their region are not handled by brokers, at least not those sales in small
                            > remote villages. Perhaps there is not enough of a "market" to make it
                            > worthwhile?
                            >
                            > ______________
                            > Bill Tarkulich
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: centroco@... [mailto:centroco@...] On Behalf Of Peter
                            > Nagy
                            > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:24 AM
                            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear all,
                            >
                            > Vladimir has shown a typical example, how Slovakia is transforming. My
                            > mother in law sold her shares in the cooperative for 20% of nominal
                            > value, thus it was a good business comparing with Cachtice. I do not
                            > remember if Vladimir described, what are these shares. In about 1991 the
                            > former agricultural cooperatives were transformed to new entities. There
                            > were meetings of all cooperative members and landowners and they had to
                            > decide, if the cooperative should be transformed to the new cooperative
                            > or to a Ltd. Of course, in 1991 nobody had any imaginations, what does
                            > it mean. Obligatory part of the transformation process was the
                            > evaluation of the cooperative. It included the buildings, the animals,
                            > the machines, the stocks, etc., but not the land! In Czechoslovakia in
                            > most cases the cooperatives were not owners of the land, which they
                            > cultivated. Of course, the cooperative produced this property on the
                            > foreign land. In order to compensate the land owners for 40 years of
                            > free land use by the cooperatives, the land owners or their heirs got a
                            > special securities (shares, podielnicke listy) which were intended to
                            > pay in cash in 10 years. Later Mr. Meciar changed the law and the
                            > cooperatives were not obliged any more to pay the financial compensation
                            > for the land owners - this was the true robbery. These "podielnicke
                            > listy" were long time considered as piece of paper without any value.
                            > Only in present a market for these securities is emerging again. The
                            > market value of the cooperative shares were due to Meciar's intervention
                            > 0%, now they are between 10-20 % of the nominal value.
                            >
                            > I have to add, that this did not tackle the land ownership. The land
                            > ownership is another story.
                            >
                            > Peter
                            >
                            > --
                            > Cilistovska 20
                            > 931 01 Samorin
                            > Slovak Republic
                            >
                            > tel: +421 31 560 0641
                            > mobile: +421 905 490 552
                            > http://www.centroconsult.sk
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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                          • Vladimir Bohinc
                            Dear Bill, If you want to compare correctly, you have to compare with average salary. How many average salaries for a home. The home prices below are not
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 22, 2005
                              Dear Bill,
                              If you want to compare correctly, you have to compare with average salary. How many average salaries for a home.
                              The home prices below are not correct.
                              A flat in Bratislava about 3M Sk yes, but not a home. These are much more expensive in Bratislava.
                              And, if you are talking homes, they can be 100 years old or new. Not possible to make such a simple comparison.
                              A 30 years old home around Bratislava would be 1.7 to 2.5 MSk.
                              But again, Bratislava is absolutely not representative for the country.
                              If you want some links on that, I can find some for you tomorrow and you can see the prices all over the country.
                              I don't know, whether the Slovak average salary is already $400. probably not far from there. And the US is how much?
                              $2500?
                              Vladimir

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Bill Tarkulich
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:42 PM
                              Subject: Re: Re: [S-R] Property issues


                              Your comments about variablity apply of course. Supply, demand and strategic importance.

                              "Using the benchmarck of a two-bedroom residential home, Fedoroňko estimated that the average dwelling in Bratislava city proper was presently listed at between two and three million Slovak crowns ($45,000-$60,000), while a similar house within 15 kilometers of the city centre was 1.5-2 million crowns ($30,000-$45,000) and beyond 30 kilometers of the capital below 500,000 crowns ($12,000)." Slovak Spectator, June, 1999. [ 50 SKK = 1 USD in 1999 ]

                              I just want people to get an appreciation for the relative economics, since the 2004 U. S. median sales price of a home is 218,000USD (7,433.423SKK) [ 30 SKK = 1 USD in 3/2005]



                              >
                              > From: "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
                              > Date: 2005/03/22 Tue AM 11:58:43 EST
                              > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Bill,
                              > I don't know. I would have to ask somebody involved, but you may expect this to vary so much, that one would have to make several checks to figure out an approximate average value.
                              > Regarding the land and brokers; if the land is or can be turned into construction land, then they have interest. If it's only fields or pastures, then they usually are not interested. The one who might be interested is the neighbor.
                              > Some of you have seen slovak villages, how they are suffocated with large fields. All these fields are called Extravilan, and you can not build a house there. So there was a great shortage of construction land. Usually einther an old house was torn down and a new built or a new house was built on the other end of the garden.
                              > Nowadays, investors are already turning fileds and pastures into construction land.
                              > Vladimir
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Bill Tarkulich
                              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:43 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [S-R] Property issues
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello Peter and Vladimir,
                              >
                              > It might be instructive to those unfamiliar with the Slovak Republic economy
                              > for you to give them a sense of the monetary value we are talking about.
                              > What is the typical sales price (or range or average) that people are
                              > receiving for their cooperative shares?
                              >
                              > By the way, my cousins in northeastern Slovakia advise me that land sales in
                              > their region are not handled by brokers, at least not those sales in small
                              > remote villages. Perhaps there is not enough of a "market" to make it
                              > worthwhile?
                              >
                              > ______________
                              > Bill Tarkulich
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: centroco@... [mailto:centroco@...] On Behalf Of Peter
                              > Nagy
                              > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:24 AM
                              > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear all,
                              >
                              > Vladimir has shown a typical example, how Slovakia is transforming. My
                              > mother in law sold her shares in the cooperative for 20% of nominal
                              > value, thus it was a good business comparing with Cachtice. I do not
                              > remember if Vladimir described, what are these shares. In about 1991 the
                              > former agricultural cooperatives were transformed to new entities. There
                              > were meetings of all cooperative members and landowners and they had to
                              > decide, if the cooperative should be transformed to the new cooperative
                              > or to a Ltd. Of course, in 1991 nobody had any imaginations, what does
                              > it mean. Obligatory part of the transformation process was the
                              > evaluation of the cooperative. It included the buildings, the animals,
                              > the machines, the stocks, etc., but not the land! In Czechoslovakia in
                              > most cases the cooperatives were not owners of the land, which they
                              > cultivated. Of course, the cooperative produced this property on the
                              > foreign land. In order to compensate the land owners for 40 years of
                              > free land use by the cooperatives, the land owners or their heirs got a
                              > special securities (shares, podielnicke listy) which were intended to
                              > pay in cash in 10 years. Later Mr. Meciar changed the law and the
                              > cooperatives were not obliged any more to pay the financial compensation
                              > for the land owners - this was the true robbery. These "podielnicke
                              > listy" were long time considered as piece of paper without any value.
                              > Only in present a market for these securities is emerging again. The
                              > market value of the cooperative shares were due to Meciar's intervention
                              > 0%, now they are between 10-20 % of the nominal value.
                              >
                              > I have to add, that this did not tackle the land ownership. The land
                              > ownership is another story.
                              >
                              > Peter
                              >
                              > --
                              > Cilistovska 20
                              > 931 01 Samorin
                              > Slovak Republic
                              >
                              > tel: +421 31 560 0641
                              > mobile: +421 905 490 552
                              > http://www.centroconsult.sk
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                              > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                            • Bill Tarkulich
                              It s quite well understood that there is subjective variance in everything. I understand the distiction between house size, quality, age and location. But we
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 22, 2005
                                It's quite well understood that there is subjective variance in everything. I understand the distiction between house size, quality, age and location. But we can still make a useful comparison.

                                Sit down Vladimir... Average 2002 US wage was US$35,560
                                (source: US Bureau of Labor & Statistics) Some people make minimum wage of US$11,000, few make US$70,000 fewer make more than US$100,000. The smallest condominium or trailer may go for US$45,000, 2 bedrooms houses go for US$60K in slow economic areas, places like San Diego the same 2 bedroom house goes for $500,000.

                                That's why I think this comparison is so meaningful. Even if we are at +/- 50% soviet prices, the relative comparison is still dramatic and educational enough. I'm not trying to get precision here.

                                Bill

                                >
                                > From: "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
                                > Date: 2005/03/22 Tue PM 02:34:21 EST
                                > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: Re: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                                >
                                >
                                > Dear Bill,
                                > If you want to compare correctly, you have to compare with average salary. How many average salaries for a home.
                                > The home prices below are not correct.
                                > A flat in Bratislava about 3M Sk yes, but not a home. These are much more expensive in Bratislava.
                                > And, if you are talking homes, they can be 100 years old or new. Not possible to make such a simple comparison.
                                > A 30 years old home around Bratislava would be 1.7 to 2.5 MSk.
                                > But again, Bratislava is absolutely not representative for the country.
                                > If you want some links on that, I can find some for you tomorrow and you can see the prices all over the country.
                                > I don't know, whether the Slovak average salary is already $400. probably not far from there. And the US is how much?
                                > $2500?
                                > Vladimir
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Bill Tarkulich
                                > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:42 PM
                                > Subject: Re: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                                >
                                >
                                > Your comments about variablity apply of course. Supply, demand and strategic importance.
                                >
                                > "Using the benchmarck of a two-bedroom residential home, Fedoroňko estimated that the average dwelling in Bratislava city proper was presently listed at between two and three million Slovak crowns ($45,000-$60,000), while a similar house within 15 kilometers of the city centre was 1.5-2 million crowns ($30,000-$45,000) and beyond 30 kilometers of the capital below 500,000 crowns ($12,000)." Slovak Spectator, June, 1999. [ 50 SKK = 1 USD in 1999 ]
                                >
                                > I just want people to get an appreciation for the relative economics, since the 2004 U. S. median sales price of a home is 218,000USD (7,433.423SKK) [ 30 SKK = 1 USD in 3/2005]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                > > From: "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
                                > > Date: 2005/03/22 Tue AM 11:58:43 EST
                                > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Dear Bill,
                                > > I don't know. I would have to ask somebody involved, but you may expect this to vary so much, that one would have to make several checks to figure out an approximate average value.
                                > > Regarding the land and brokers; if the land is or can be turned into construction land, then they have interest. If it's only fields or pastures, then they usually are not interested. The one who might be interested is the neighbor.
                                > > Some of you have seen slovak villages, how they are suffocated with large fields. All these fields are called Extravilan, and you can not build a house there. So there was a great shortage of construction land. Usually einther an old house was torn down and a new built or a new house was built on the other end of the garden.
                                > > Nowadays, investors are already turning fileds and pastures into construction land.
                                > > Vladimir
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: Bill Tarkulich
                                > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:43 AM
                                > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Property issues
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hello Peter and Vladimir,
                                > >
                                > > It might be instructive to those unfamiliar with the Slovak Republic economy
                                > > for you to give them a sense of the monetary value we are talking about.
                                > > What is the typical sales price (or range or average) that people are
                                > > receiving for their cooperative shares?
                                > >
                                > > By the way, my cousins in northeastern Slovakia advise me that land sales in
                                > > their region are not handled by brokers, at least not those sales in small
                                > > remote villages. Perhaps there is not enough of a "market" to make it
                                > > worthwhile?
                                > >
                                > > ______________
                                > > Bill Tarkulich
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: centroco@... [mailto:centroco@...] On Behalf Of Peter
                                > > Nagy
                                > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:24 AM
                                > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Dear all,
                                > >
                                > > Vladimir has shown a typical example, how Slovakia is transforming. My
                                > > mother in law sold her shares in the cooperative for 20% of nominal
                                > > value, thus it was a good business comparing with Cachtice. I do not
                                > > remember if Vladimir described, what are these shares. In about 1991 the
                                > > former agricultural cooperatives were transformed to new entities. There
                                > > were meetings of all cooperative members and landowners and they had to
                                > > decide, if the cooperative should be transformed to the new cooperative
                                > > or to a Ltd. Of course, in 1991 nobody had any imaginations, what does
                                > > it mean. Obligatory part of the transformation process was the
                                > > evaluation of the cooperative. It included the buildings, the animals,
                                > > the machines, the stocks, etc., but not the land! In Czechoslovakia in
                                > > most cases the cooperatives were not owners of the land, which they
                                > > cultivated. Of course, the cooperative produced this property on the
                                > > foreign land. In order to compensate the land owners for 40 years of
                                > > free land use by the cooperatives, the land owners or their heirs got a
                                > > special securities (shares, podielnicke listy) which were intended to
                                > > pay in cash in 10 years. Later Mr. Meciar changed the law and the
                                > > cooperatives were not obliged any more to pay the financial compensation
                                > > for the land owners - this was the true robbery. These "podielnicke
                                > > listy" were long time considered as piece of paper without any value.
                                > > Only in present a market for these securities is emerging again. The
                                > > market value of the cooperative shares were due to Meciar's intervention
                                > > 0%, now they are between 10-20 % of the nominal value.
                                > >
                                > > I have to add, that this did not tackle the land ownership. The land
                                > > ownership is another story.
                                > >
                                > > Peter
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > Cilistovska 20
                                > > 931 01 Samorin
                                > > Slovak Republic
                                > >
                                > > tel: +421 31 560 0641
                                > > mobile: +421 905 490 552
                                > > http://www.centroconsult.sk
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >
                                > >
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                                > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                > >
                                > >
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                              • amiak27
                                Vlad, a request for another observation on your part: When living in Germany I noted the politics in declaring (rezoning) agricultural land to housing
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 22, 2005
                                  Vlad, a request for another observation on your part: When living
                                  in Germany I noted the politics in declaring (rezoning) agricultural
                                  land to housing construction land. It seemed friends of the mayor
                                  were favored with the rezoning. The price went up by a factor of 10
                                  with this new status of the land. Is the relative price of agrarian
                                  land to construction land 1:2, 1:5 or 1:10 in Slovakia, or cansuch a
                                  comparison be made at all?? Thanks in advance.

                                  Ron

                                  --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc"
                                  <konekta@n...> wrote:
                                  > Dear Bill,
                                  > I don't know. I would have to ask somebody involved, but you may
                                  expect this to vary so much, that one would have to make several
                                  checks to figure out an approximate average value.
                                  > Regarding the land and brokers; if the land is or can be turned
                                  into construction land, then they have interest. If it's only fields
                                  or pastures, then they usually are not interested. The one who might
                                  be interested is the neighbor.
                                  > Some of you have seen slovak villages, how they are suffocated
                                  with large fields. All these fields are called Extravilan, and you
                                  can not build a house there. So there was a great shortage of
                                  construction land. Usually einther an old house was torn down and a
                                  new built or a new house was built on the other end of the garden.
                                  > Nowadays, investors are already turning fileds and pastures into
                                  construction land.
                                  > Vladimir
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Bill Tarkulich
                                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:43 AM
                                  > Subject: RE: [S-R] Property issues
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hello Peter and Vladimir,
                                  >
                                  > It might be instructive to those unfamiliar with the Slovak
                                  Republic economy
                                  > for you to give them a sense of the monetary value we are
                                  talking about.
                                  > What is the typical sales price (or range or average) that
                                  people are
                                  > receiving for their cooperative shares?
                                  >
                                  > By the way, my cousins in northeastern Slovakia advise me that
                                  land sales in
                                  > their region are not handled by brokers, at least not those
                                  sales in small
                                  > remote villages. Perhaps there is not enough of a "market" to
                                  make it
                                  > worthwhile?
                                  >
                                  > ______________
                                  > Bill Tarkulich
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: centroco@s... [mailto:centroco@s...] On Behalf Of Peter
                                  > Nagy
                                  > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:24 AM
                                  > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Dear all,
                                  >
                                  > Vladimir has shown a typical example, how Slovakia is
                                  transforming. My
                                  > mother in law sold her shares in the cooperative for 20% of
                                  nominal
                                  > value, thus it was a good business comparing with Cachtice. I do
                                  not
                                  > remember if Vladimir described, what are these shares. In about
                                  1991 the
                                  > former agricultural cooperatives were transformed to new
                                  entities. There
                                  > were meetings of all cooperative members and landowners and they
                                  had to
                                  > decide, if the cooperative should be transformed to the new
                                  cooperative
                                  > or to a Ltd. Of course, in 1991 nobody had any imaginations,
                                  what does
                                  > it mean. Obligatory part of the transformation process was the
                                  > evaluation of the cooperative. It included the buildings, the
                                  animals,
                                  > the machines, the stocks, etc., but not the land! In
                                  Czechoslovakia in
                                  > most cases the cooperatives were not owners of the land, which
                                  they
                                  > cultivated. Of course, the cooperative produced this property on
                                  the
                                  > foreign land. In order to compensate the land owners for 40
                                  years of
                                  > free land use by the cooperatives, the land owners or their
                                  heirs got a
                                  > special securities (shares, podielnicke listy) which were
                                  intended to
                                  > pay in cash in 10 years. Later Mr. Meciar changed the law and
                                  the
                                  > cooperatives were not obliged any more to pay the financial
                                  compensation
                                  > for the land owners - this was the true robbery.
                                  These "podielnicke
                                  > listy" were long time considered as piece of paper without any
                                  value.
                                  > Only in present a market for these securities is emerging again.
                                  The
                                  > market value of the cooperative shares were due to Meciar's
                                  intervention
                                  > 0%, now they are between 10-20 % of the nominal value.
                                  >
                                  > I have to add, that this did not tackle the land ownership. The
                                  land
                                  > ownership is another story.
                                  >
                                  > Peter
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Cilistovska 20
                                  > 931 01 Samorin
                                  > Slovak Republic
                                  >
                                  > tel: +421 31 560 0641
                                  > mobile: +421 905 490 552
                                  > http://www.centroconsult.sk
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
                                  email to
                                  > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                • nhasior@aol.com
                                  Bill, Looking at a map, Wetlina is certainly at the crossroads. It is about as close as you can be to the boundary of the three countries of Poland, Slovakia
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 23, 2005
                                    Bill,
                                    Looking at a map, Wetlina is certainly at the crossroads. It is about as
                                    close as you can be to the boundary of the three countries of Poland, Slovakia
                                    and Ukraine.
                                    Noreen


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Bill Tarkulich
                                    Noreen, I ve studied Wetlina at great lengths and have walked its borders. ______________ Bill Tarkulich ... From: nhasior@aol.com [mailto:nhasior@aol.com]
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 23, 2005
                                      Noreen,

                                      I've studied Wetlina at great lengths and have walked its borders.

                                      ______________
                                      Bill Tarkulich




                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: nhasior@... [mailto:nhasior@...]
                                      Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 5:42 AM
                                      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues



                                      Bill,
                                      Looking at a map, Wetlina is certainly at the crossroads. It is about as
                                      close as you can be to the boundary of the three countries of Poland,
                                      Slovakia
                                      and Ukraine.
                                      Noreen


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                      To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                      http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                      SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                    • Bill Tarkulich
                                      Over 200 villages were victims of Operation Vistula, beyond Lesko, Poland to the Northwest. These village were all a part of the Austrian castradal system. I
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 23, 2005
                                        Over 200 villages were victims of Operation Vistula, beyond Lesko, Poland to
                                        the Northwest.
                                        These village were all a part of the Austrian castradal system.

                                        I have Austrian castradal maps for volume two of the Bieszczady Slownik
                                        Historyczno-Krajaozoznawcy, Gmina Cisna region.

                                        Perhaps I've missed your point - you don't refer to which comment of mine
                                        you are commenting on.

                                        ______________
                                        Bill Tarkulich




                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: nhasior@... [mailto:nhasior@...]
                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 5:42 AM
                                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues



                                        Bill,
                                        Looking at a map, Wetlina is certainly at the crossroads. It is about as
                                        close as you can be to the boundary of the three countries of Poland,
                                        Slovakia
                                        and Ukraine.
                                        Noreen


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                        To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                        http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                        SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Vladimir Bohinc
                                        Dear Bill, Many thanks. No need to sit down; I was referring to the monthly salary and you are referring to the year s salary. It used to be, that the ratio
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Mar 24, 2005
                                          Dear Bill,
                                          Many thanks.
                                          No need to sit down; I was referring to the monthly salary and you are referring to the year's salary.
                                          It used to be, that the ratio between Slovakia and let us say Austria, which has very good salaries, was 1:10.
                                          Here are some links where you can see the prices.
                                          The ratio between the agricultural land and construction land price can be 1:100.
                                          http://www.trh.sk/

                                          http://reality.dct.sk/

                                          http://nehnutelnosti.residence.sk/domy-byty-pozemky.jsp

                                          http://www.realitymdt.sk/pozemky.php

                                          http://www.reality-slovensko.sk/slovak/1_predaj/nehnutelnosti.html

                                          All this market is not mature yet.

                                          If you need a special vocabulary for surfing or understanding slovak real estate sites, let me know.

                                          regards,

                                          Vladimir



                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Bill Tarkulich
                                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:58 PM
                                          Subject: Re: Re: [S-R] Property issues


                                          It's quite well understood that there is subjective variance in everything. I understand the distiction between house size, quality, age and location. But we can still make a useful comparison.

                                          Sit down Vladimir... Average 2002 US wage was US$35,560
                                          (source: US Bureau of Labor & Statistics) Some people make minimum wage of US$11,000, few make US$70,000 fewer make more than US$100,000. The smallest condominium or trailer may go for US$45,000, 2 bedrooms houses go for US$60K in slow economic areas, places like San Diego the same 2 bedroom house goes for $500,000.

                                          That's why I think this comparison is so meaningful. Even if we are at +/- 50% soviet prices, the relative comparison is still dramatic and educational enough. I'm not trying to get precision here.

                                          Bill

                                          >
                                          > From: "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
                                          > Date: 2005/03/22 Tue PM 02:34:21 EST
                                          > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Subject: Re: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Dear Bill,
                                          > If you want to compare correctly, you have to compare with average salary. How many average salaries for a home.
                                          > The home prices below are not correct.
                                          > A flat in Bratislava about 3M Sk yes, but not a home. These are much more expensive in Bratislava.
                                          > And, if you are talking homes, they can be 100 years old or new. Not possible to make such a simple comparison.
                                          > A 30 years old home around Bratislava would be 1.7 to 2.5 MSk.
                                          > But again, Bratislava is absolutely not representative for the country.
                                          > If you want some links on that, I can find some for you tomorrow and you can see the prices all over the country.
                                          > I don't know, whether the Slovak average salary is already $400. probably not far from there. And the US is how much?
                                          > $2500?
                                          > Vladimir
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: Bill Tarkulich
                                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:42 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Your comments about variablity apply of course. Supply, demand and strategic importance.
                                          >
                                          > "Using the benchmarck of a two-bedroom residential home, Fedoroňko estimated that the average dwelling in Bratislava city proper was presently listed at between two and three million Slovak crowns ($45,000-$60,000), while a similar house within 15 kilometers of the city centre was 1.5-2 million crowns ($30,000-$45,000) and beyond 30 kilometers of the capital below 500,000 crowns ($12,000)." Slovak Spectator, June, 1999. [ 50 SKK = 1 USD in 1999 ]
                                          >
                                          > I just want people to get an appreciation for the relative economics, since the 2004 U. S. median sales price of a home is 218,000USD (7,433.423SKK) [ 30 SKK = 1 USD in 3/2005]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > From: "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
                                          > > Date: 2005/03/22 Tue AM 11:58:43 EST
                                          > > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Dear Bill,
                                          > > I don't know. I would have to ask somebody involved, but you may expect this to vary so much, that one would have to make several checks to figure out an approximate average value.
                                          > > Regarding the land and brokers; if the land is or can be turned into construction land, then they have interest. If it's only fields or pastures, then they usually are not interested. The one who might be interested is the neighbor.
                                          > > Some of you have seen slovak villages, how they are suffocated with large fields. All these fields are called Extravilan, and you can not build a house there. So there was a great shortage of construction land. Usually einther an old house was torn down and a new built or a new house was built on the other end of the garden.
                                          > > Nowadays, investors are already turning fileds and pastures into construction land.
                                          > > Vladimir
                                          > >
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: Bill Tarkulich
                                          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:43 AM
                                          > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Property issues
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello Peter and Vladimir,
                                          > >
                                          > > It might be instructive to those unfamiliar with the Slovak Republic economy
                                          > > for you to give them a sense of the monetary value we are talking about.
                                          > > What is the typical sales price (or range or average) that people are
                                          > > receiving for their cooperative shares?
                                          > >
                                          > > By the way, my cousins in northeastern Slovakia advise me that land sales in
                                          > > their region are not handled by brokers, at least not those sales in small
                                          > > remote villages. Perhaps there is not enough of a "market" to make it
                                          > > worthwhile?
                                          > >
                                          > > ______________
                                          > > Bill Tarkulich
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: centroco@... [mailto:centroco@...] On Behalf Of Peter
                                          > > Nagy
                                          > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:24 AM
                                          > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [S-R] Property issues
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Dear all,
                                          > >
                                          > > Vladimir has shown a typical example, how Slovakia is transforming. My
                                          > > mother in law sold her shares in the cooperative for 20% of nominal
                                          > > value, thus it was a good business comparing with Cachtice. I do not
                                          > > remember if Vladimir described, what are these shares. In about 1991 the
                                          > > former agricultural cooperatives were transformed to new entities. There
                                          > > were meetings of all cooperative members and landowners and they had to
                                          > > decide, if the cooperative should be transformed to the new cooperative
                                          > > or to a Ltd. Of course, in 1991 nobody had any imaginations, what does
                                          > > it mean. Obligatory part of the transformation process was the
                                          > > evaluation of the cooperative. It included the buildings, the animals,
                                          > > the machines, the stocks, etc., but not the land! In Czechoslovakia in
                                          > > most cases the cooperatives were not owners of the land, which they
                                          > > cultivated. Of course, the cooperative produced this property on the
                                          > > foreign land. In order to compensate the land owners for 40 years of
                                          > > free land use by the cooperatives, the land owners or their heirs got a
                                          > > special securities (shares, podielnicke listy) which were intended to
                                          > > pay in cash in 10 years. Later Mr. Meciar changed the law and the
                                          > > cooperatives were not obliged any more to pay the financial compensation
                                          > > for the land owners - this was the true robbery. These "podielnicke
                                          > > listy" were long time considered as piece of paper without any value.
                                          > > Only in present a market for these securities is emerging again. The
                                          > > market value of the cooperative shares were due to Meciar's intervention
                                          > > 0%, now they are between 10-20 % of the nominal value.
                                          > >
                                          > > I have to add, that this did not tackle the land ownership. The land
                                          > > ownership is another story.
                                          > >
                                          > > Peter
                                          > >
                                          > > --
                                          > > Cilistovska 20
                                          > > 931 01 Samorin
                                          > > Slovak Republic
                                          > >
                                          > > tel: +421 31 560 0641
                                          > > mobile: +421 905 490 552
                                          > > http://www.centroconsult.sk
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                                          > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                                          > > SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
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