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Re: [S-R] Other social groups

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  • Vladimir Bohinc
    Yes Jan, what you say is correct. You can find nobles through the whole scale. Once I was translating a diary of a hungarian Nobleman. he was good, very good.
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 4, 2005
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      Yes Jan, what you say is correct.
      You can find nobles through the whole scale.
      Once I was translating a diary of a hungarian Nobleman. he was good, very
      good. But some members of his family were bad. Especially women. They
      gambled all the property which they inherited. Just dolce vita.
      Very often you find them as officers in the Army.
      Towards the end of the 19th century many have either sold or let out on
      lease their estates to the Jews.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jan Ammann" <janammann@...>
      To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 6:08 PM
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups



      Hello.....Vlad and others on the "social question"...

      I recently was fortunate enough to secure the marriage records on a family
      history member that I am researching. He was a nobleman...Jobaházi Dőry
      József (a Baron). In the marriage record he is listed as a Second
      Lieutenant in the Hungarian Royal Husaren regiment. I believe this was his
      "career" as I find him in many years after......1927, 1928, 1938, 1940, and
      1941. Therefore, I would deem him to have contributed to the world of
      Hungary and surrounding areas.

      Józef's father was Miklós who was a Royal Chamberlain. I am not sure what
      this exactly entailed but perhaps it falls under your theory of "noble's not
      doing hard work". Of course, that is only a guess on anyone's part as I do
      not have a real description of this job. I am sure they contributed to the
      world around them.

      The witnesses for this wedding were also of noble birth. Guary Béla was
      also a Royal Chamberlain to the main chair of the Judge of Kapuvár. The
      other witness was a Count Fesztetics Elek from Sopron......no profession
      listed for him.

      I guess what I am trying to say is that I would not care to "put everyone
      who was noble" in a particular work pattern. As with all people in this day
      and time, there were so many variables in work conditions and patterns. I
      am sure there were some "losers" as we call people who do not pull their
      weight in this time frame as there were also "winners" who were energetic
      and very professional.

      These are just my thoughts.......no concrete evidence of anything. I just
      wanted to add to this discussion and perhaps give a different point of view.

      Cheers,
      Jan


      amiak27 <rmat@...> wrote:

      To add a note to Vlad's reply: at least in the 1800's & after, the
      ethic of the nobility reflected in the history books is one of being
      above commercialism, above business and dirtying their hands in
      business, much less the trades. Perhaps earlier times & some
      locations some minor nobility got hungry and adapted a more
      pragmatic morality as you point out, but at this time it was more
      respectable to move to town and take a government job and play the
      liesurely, self-important noble and bureaucrat working a few hours
      at his desk & spending time at coffehouses & a respectable
      mistress. With perhaps Esterhazy the exception, many 'nobles' are
      not recorded as contributing much to their country economically.

      Ron


      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc"
      <konekta@n...> wrote:
      > Dear Janet,
      > You set me a trap:-)
      > What you are describing was probably the case with your family,
      which is not a representative case.
      > Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not
      bonded to the land as the coloni were.
      > They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the
      main characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths,
      taylors etc, they all were free to move and where they came to
      settle, they were tenants. Later on, they acquired houses etc.
      > Bottom or not bottom;
      > In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or
      subinquilinus died not have any land. So this was the criteria to
      sort them.
      > You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect
      every blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
      > If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real
      social status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very
      often the case. Many noble properties were lost due to negligence
      and dolce vita, or through inheritance.
      > Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages
      in mind, not towns.
      > Towns were different.
      > Vladimir
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Janet Kozlay
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
      > Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups
      >
      >
      > Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-
      propertied noble
      > who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern,
      and wine and
      > flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He
      married into a
      > family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends
      and
      > relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate
      managers, and
      > lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we
      would think of
      > as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to
      agree that
      > they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often
      dismissed
      > completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in
      the church
      > records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests
      that they
      > were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this
      instance was
      > far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation
      varied among
      > regions.
      > Janet
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@n...]
      > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups
      >
      >
      > True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a
      wider sense.
      > In a community, there were not many, and they usually were
      subinquilini
      > anyway.
      > I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is,
      that what you
      > saw were the spouses of.
      > Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for
      nobles. They were
      > rather exceptions than a rule.
      > Vladimir
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Janet Kozlay
      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
      > Subject: [S-R] Other social groups
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides
      the farmers,
      > such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you
      run across
      > lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who
      served their
      > communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time
      I ran
      > across
      > entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as
      lanionissa,
      > molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were
      married to
      > their
      > respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there
      actually have
      > been
      > "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect
      the former,
      > but
      > I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on
      whether in your
      > experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor
      nobility. I
      > seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas
      I have been
      > searching.
      >
      > Janet
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
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